skibum5 wrote:
effective 100% crop normalized to 20D size
SkiBum, how do you think a 5DII image would compare cropped 1.6 to 20D size?
i soaked mine (5D2, wait how did this thread turn into the 5D2 thread suddenly? ) in wet snow yesterday and the day before and it's fine today (and was fine then)
I recently re-read the 5DII white paper and it makes the same weather sealing claims that the 7D literature did, comparing themselves to the same 1 series film camera. Shouldn't they survive comparable conditions?
Jeff Nolten wrote:
SkiBum, how do you think a 5DII image would compare cropped 1.6 to 20D size?
I recently re-read the 5DII white paper and it makes the same weather sealing claims that the 7D literature did, comparing themselves to the same 1 series film camera. Shouldn't they survive comparable conditions?
perhaps they should survive the same conditions, although my 5D2 sure seems a lot flimsier (and squeakier than my 7D)
that said even my 20D got some light rain on it a few times and was ok
well a 5D2 has the same pixel density as a 20D so there would be no downsizing just direct comparison if doing a reach limited comparison or a 21MP->8MP downsizing if doing an image comparison (not that you need to downsize and actually shot not if printing, etc. just talking about an easy screen comparison and only talking about appearance of noise you are obviously tossing away any detail advantage doing this instead of upping the 8MP to 21MP and comparing that way)
anyway at the image level the 5D2 definitely looks better to me than the 7D but at the reach-level comparison the 7D looks a little better (in terms of noise when doing downsized type comparisons)
7D pulls in noticeably more reach detail at lower ISOs if left as is and a little bit more at high iso
5D2 pulls in a somewhat more image-level detail at all isos, maybe even moreso at high isos
Thanks Skibum, I'm trying to decide whether I'd get better milage upgrading my 5D1 or 40D. A tough set of tradeoffs but I can only afford one new body. The 5D2 is very attractive because I could directly crop to a 20D view and benefit from its fatter pixels when pushing the ISO, hopefully gaining a stop over the 40D on noise.
Could you expand on why the 5D2 feels flimsy? Flimsier than a 5D1 or just compared to the 7D? I've had both my bodies in light rain with no ill effects but I am heartened that both the new bodies did well in the antarctic. I hope I never have to photograph in those conditions.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks Skibum, I'm trying to decide whether I'd get better milage upgrading my 5D1 or 40D. A tough set of tradeoffs but I can only afford one new body. The 5D2 is very attractive because I could directly crop to a 20D view and benefit from its fatter pixels when pushing the ISO, hopefully gaining a stop over the 40D on noise.
Could you expand on why the 5D2 feels flimsy? Flimsier than a 5D1 or just compared to the 7D? I've had both my bodies in light rain with no ill effects but I am heartened that both the new bodies did well in the antarctic. I hope I never have to photograph in those conditions....Show more →
Funny, I'm in a similar position, except that I know that I'm not selling my 40d, I just love that body for some reason. Upgrading my 5d to a 5d2 seems to make intuitive sense, but I'm one of those that likes using 1.6X crop, sometimes more than FF (although I know its a sin to admit that) and the 7d is a tempting camera.
michael49:
Funny, I'm in a similar position, except that I know that I'm not selling my 40d, I just love that body for some reason.
Interestingly, I feel exactly the same. That is why it will be my last 1.6 crop body, regardless what Canon makes in the future. Yes, I almost kept 7D but returned it mostly for the above reason. I never thought that would get attached to a camera (although I still have EOS 10S). I did kept any camera longer then 1 year before (300D, 20D, 30D, again 30D, 400D). I also have 5D but this will be replaced by 1Ds mkIII when it gets a bit cheaper.
mfurman wrote:
Interestingly, I feel exactly the same. That is why it will be my last 1.6 crop body, regardless what Canon makes in the future. Yes, I almost kept 7D but returned it mostly for the above reason. I never thought that would get attached to a camera (although I still have EOS 10S). I did kept any camera longer then 1 year before (300D, 20D, 30D, again 30D, 400D). I also have 5D but this will be replaced by 1Ds mkIII when it gets a bit cheaper.
Whichever camera I get next, I'm keeping both the 40D and 5D as they are each excellent. I use the 40D mainly as a 1.6 extender with a 100-400. It makes very clean images in good light and I use it quite a lot. The 7D would be a definite upgrade but with more noise at low ISO. The 5D2 would give better high ISO than anything (except 1 series) and still crop to an 8 MP 1.6 equivalent. I'd be sacrificing reach but still getting most of the feature upgrades I think are important. Still a tough decision.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
The 7D would be a definite upgrade but with more noise at low ISO.
My 7D produces silky smooth images at low ISO. No guarantee that other copies will behave the same way, given Canon's QC.
PS: It suddenly dawned on me that no one has used that phrase to describe Canon images after Nikon burst on the scene with their D3/D300 couple of years back.
mfurman wrote:
Interestingly, I feel exactly the same. That is why it will be my last 1.6 crop body, regardless what Canon makes in the future. Yes, I almost kept 7D but returned it mostly for the above reason. I never thought that would get attached to a camera (although I still have EOS 10S). I did kept any camera longer then 1 year before (300D, 20D, 30D, again 30D, 400D). I also have 5D but this will be replaced by 1Ds mkIII when it gets a bit cheaper.
The 40D is a camera that I just love for some reason.
I was visiting family in Florida recently and I used the 40d as much as my 5d; I just love the colors and sharpness (I know that sounds silly as the 5d is supposed to excel at this but its true).
Here's my 40D with my 100 f/2 at f/2 (I really love this lens on 1.6X crop because you can shoot portraits from a bit of a distance)...(who needs a 135L? )...
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks Skibum, I'm trying to decide whether I'd get better milage upgrading my 5D1 or 40D. A tough set of tradeoffs but I can only afford one new body. The 5D2 is very attractive because I could directly crop to a 20D view and benefit from its fatter pixels when pushing the ISO, hopefully gaining a stop over the 40D on noise.
Could you expand on why the 5D2 feels flimsy? Flimsier than a 5D1 or just compared to the 7D? I've had both my bodies in light rain with no ill effects but I am heartened that both the new bodies did well in the antarctic. I hope I never have to photograph in those conditions....Show more →
flimsier compared to 7D, a little even compared to the 50D
partly because the battery/CF door areas have give (amd creak on many copies)
but i wouldnt make it a deciding factor at all unless you shoot only in the artctic
i would say it might even be closer to 1.5 stops over the 40D at the image level (not talking cropped to equivalent FOV where the 5D2 won't give much if anything and certainly loses compared to some APS-C)
do you do lots of high fps/ai servo stuff?
5D1 is somewhat older than the 40D in that it doesnt even give you liveview and stuff
but the 5D1 is still pretty decent at the image level though, better than the 40D
thw2 wrote:
My 7D produces silky smooth images at low ISO. No guarantee that other copies will behave the same way, given Canon's QC.
If I still had the 10D as my crop camera it would be a no-brainer which to upgrade but currently the 5D is longer in the tooth. As many have said, today's primo combination would be a 5D2 and 7D. Alas, I have to choose only one, or wait for the 3D
Seriously, I am waiting to see what DXO thinks of the 7D and some resolution of the raw converter issues before I make a final decision.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
If I still had the 10D as my crop camera it would be a no-brainer which to upgrade but currently the 5D is longer in the tooth. As many have said, today's primo combination would be a 5D2 and 7D. Alas, I have to choose only one, or wait for the 3D
Seriously, I am waiting to see what DXO thinks of the 7D and some resolution of the raw converter issues before I make a final decision.
I'm also waiting for a full-frame 5Dmk3 to arrive as I think it would pair up nicely with the 7D.
I too am looking forward to see how the 7D is evaluated via DXO. I hope they get a good copy for evaluation.
mfurman wrote:
Interestingly, I feel exactly the same. That is why it will be my last 1.6 crop body, regardless what Canon makes in the future. Yes, I almost kept 7D but returned it mostly for the above reason. I never thought that would get attached to a camera (although I still have EOS 10S). I did kept any camera longer then 1 year before (300D, 20D, 30D, again 30D, 400D). I also have 5D but this will be replaced by 1Ds mkIII when it gets a bit cheaper.
it is funny there ws something about the 40D sometimes is still feel bad about letting it go, even if the focus was at times erratic
it didnt have quite as much reach as a 50D though, nor as nice a screen, or technically as nice high
it did have less banding than the 50D by far and the 20D so you could really dig around into shadows nicely and do all sorts of push and pull; even engineering DR was certainly bettter than with the 20D at low ISO
Jeff Nolten wrote:
If I still had the 10D as my crop camera it would be a no-brainer which to upgrade but currently the 5D is longer in the tooth. As many have said, today's primo combination would be a 5D2 and 7D. Alas, I have to choose only one, or wait for the 3D
Seriously, I am waiting to see what DXO thinks of the 7D and some resolution of the raw converter issues before I make a final decision.
there were some crazy bing deals the other day where if you got two kits and sold one and the lens from the remaining and lived in a tax-free area from the bind dealers you could get the 7D body for like efffectively $1050 or so. I think they are over with but maybe not.
the 5D2 had the same bing deal and i think after selling the kit lens you'd be like $2200 for the body
so the pair for like $3250, still pricey but not as pricey as $1699+2699!! or the $4999 of a 1D4!
skibum5 wrote:
flimsier compared to 7D, a little even compared to the 50D
partly because the battery/CF door areas have give (amd creak on many copies)
but i wouldnt make it a deciding factor at all unless you shoot only in the artctic
i would say it might even be closer to 1.5 stops over the 40D at the image level (not talking cropped to equivalent FOV where the 5D2 won't give much if anything and certainly loses compared to some APS-C)
do you do lots of high fps/ai servo stuff?
5D1 is somewhat older than the 40D in that it doesnt even give you liveview and stuff
but the 5D1 is still pretty decent at the image level though, better than the 40D ...Show more →
Your asking about high fps/ai servo stuff really gets to the heart of my and several others' quandaries. 5D2 vs 7D is really optimizing between landscape/portrait and BIF/sports. Both are decent upgrades to their older siblings but which is going to give the most bang for the buck? I'm currently leaning towards the landscape/portrait upgrade. Romy and others rate the ai/servo of the 5D2 center point pretty highly so I could use that in situations where the 40D AF is insufficient. Decisions! Thanks for your help.
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Your asking about high fps/ai servo stuff really gets to the heart of my and several others' quandaries. 5D2 vs 7D is really optimizing between landscape/portrait and BIF/sports. Both are decent upgrades to their older siblings but which is going to give the most bang for the buck? I'm currently leaning towards the landscape/portrait upgrade. Romy and others rate the ai/servo of the 5D2 center point pretty highly so I could use that in situations where the 40D AF is insufficient. Decisions! Thanks for your help.
the centerpoint AI Servo did seem to do at least somewhat better than than on the 40D/50D although i've not gotten to test the 5D2 as carefully for that sort of thing, it tracked more distant players and objects very well with expansion points on, seemed as good as 1D maybe, but not sure if it can hold up quite as well when players are close in and relative distance changes much faster per second, maybe, maybe not
one shot center point on the 5D2 seems about the same overall as on the 7D and both seem a somewhat better than 20D-50D, although can still get tricked at times under fluorescent lighting or lower contrast or backlit stuff or on foliage that some 1 series can manage more reliably it seems
7D outer points can be much faster and are much less prone to hunt though
just rough impressions
one nice thing about FF 5D2 is you get almost as much reach as with the 40D and yet the wider FOV makes tracking action easier and you can use a fixed tele when the players/birds/whatever come much closer in before they get cut off by the edges of the frame
no doubt the 7D gives noticeably more reach for birds if there is enough light to use lower ISOs though (and even at high isos the end result is still at least a little cleaner than with the 5D2, again talking 100% reach limited here, 5D2 certainly better when you are free to frame the same image on both)
skibum5 wrote:
one nice thing about FF 5D2 is you get almost as much reach as with the 40D and yet the wider FOV makes tracking action easier and you can use a fixed tele when the players/birds/whatever come much closer in before they get cut off by the edges of the frame
My thoughts exactly. If I go the 5D2 route, I would have a better 5D and almost a 40D in the same body. I've been traveling with two bodies and four lenses which often pushes what my back and airline carryon can accept. When wildlife is less an emphasis I could save several pounds and still cover most of the bases.
no doubt the 7D gives noticeably more reach for birds if there is enough light to use lower ISOs though (and even at high isos the end result is still at least a little cleaner than with the 5D2, again talking 100% reach limited here, 5D2 certainly better when you are free to frame the same image on both)
In the end we're always reach limited Everyone seems to love their 5D2s. Maybe when the 7D has been around as long I can afford another upgrade. Thanks for helping me think on this. Cheers.
skibum5 wrote:
there were some crazy bing deals the other day where if you got two kits and sold one and the lens from the remaining and lived in a tax-free area from the bind dealers you could get the 7D body for like efffectively $1050 or so. I think they are over with but maybe not.
the 5D2 had the same bing deal and i think after selling the kit lens you'd be like $2200 for the body
so the pair for like $3250, still pricey but not as pricey as $1699+2699!! or the $4999 of a 1D4!
There are a lot of uniformed opinions posted here regarding the 5D2 autofocus... In my experience it does an excellent job of focus tracking.
I think skibum5 has it right: AI-Servo performance, using center point AF with expansion turned on, is noticeably better than any of the xxD cameras and can be close to the 1-series, given its limitations of a 4fps camera. (I've owned 1V, 1D2, and 1Ds2 bodies for comparison.)
Here's an image from a couple weeks ago in Alaska. Shooting wildlife with the 5D2 takes some careful timing (machine gunning is not its forte) but focus tracking is excellent and the file size is just luxurious:
) in wet snow yesterday and the day before and it's fine today (and was fine then)
)...
