fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1 2

4 5 end

Archive 2009 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

kentvinyard
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #1 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

buy the Nikon D700 and a used Nikkor 24-85 f2.8-f4.0 and you will be pretty well set up for a while. If you have any cash left buy a used sb600 flash. I jumped from Pentax K10 to a Nikon D300 and have been amazed at the difference--especially the flash system. Good luck with your decision.

Jul 20, 2009 at 09:42 AM

mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #2 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

kentvinyard wrote:
buy the Nikon D700 and a used Nikkor 24-85 f2.8-f4.0 and you will be pretty well set up for a while. If you have any cash left buy a used sb600 flash. I jumped from Pentax K10 to a Nikon D300 and have been amazed at the difference--especially the flash system. Good luck with your decision.

Skip the f2.8-4 version of the 24-85. While it's a nice lens, the 24-85 f3.5-4.5G AF-S is smaller, lighter, sharper and has FAR faster AF. And it can be found under $200, a real steal for a lens as good as the 24-85G. A half-stop and some close-focusing capability are worth giving up considering everything else you get from the G version.

Jul 20, 2009 at 09:46 AM

brainiac
Offline
[X]

p.3 #3 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

I would be skeptical of any noise comparison that compares 12 Mpixel and 21 Mpixel cameras at "100%". To compare noise they need to be examined at equal magnification. After typical noise reduction is applied to each file there is little difference between a D700/D3/D3x and a 5D2/1Ds3. I tested a D700 and 1Ds3 against each other using the very same lens (Nikkor 85 f1.4 with adaptor), same shutter speed, same aperture, and manual colour balance. I downrezzed the 1Ds3 file to 12 Mpixels to match the Nikon's resolution and then compared. This is 100% (12 Mpixels) at iso 12800:
http://cyberphotographer.com/d700v1ds3/d700v1ds3_12800iso_b.jpg

This is 1Ds3 against D700 at iso 12800, and I don't think there is anything much to choose between them. The 5D2 is supposed to be slightly better at iso 12800 than the 1Ds3, but I still don't think you will see clear water between the 5 CaNikon full frame cameras if you actually do the test properly at equal magnification. I think people examining the photographybay.com comparison mooted above are seeing their expectations. There is no significant difference between D700 and 5D2 high iso performance.

I would go for a 5D or 5D2 with 35 f2 and 85 f1.8. Or better still, put a manual focus screen in it and use Contax/Pentax/Nikkor/Olympus lenses of your choice, alongside whatever Canon lenses you like. The strength of the Canon system is the promiscuity and relative modernity of its lens mount.
http://cyberphotographer.com/5d2/5d2oly40.JPG

Jul 20, 2009 at 12:56 PM

wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #4 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

Richard,

Thanks for the Nikon/Canon high iso comparison shots. This is what I always thought that they are very similar but keep hearing from the Nikon fanboys like Diglloyd that the D3x is in "another league" compared to the 5D2/1ds3 which he says are crap. The DXO test results back this up and the only significant difference in the noise between the two is at low iso's around 200-400 when the Nikon is in 14 bit mode, in which I have heard the fps drops in half, maybe due to a trick where they read the sensor twice to reduce the read noise.
Do you have any more comparison pics where there is a subject with very fine detail like a ball of yarn, so I can see if any detail is being lost when nikon does it noise reduction on the RAW image?

Jul 20, 2009 at 01:54 PM

brainiac
Offline
[X]

p.3 #5 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

wayne seltzer wrote:
Do you have any more comparison pics where there is a subject with very fine detail like a ball of yarn, so I can see if any detail is being lost when nikon does it noise reduction on the RAW image?

I'm afraid I haven't. I used Capture NX and DPP to convert this test, and I found NX's noise reduction to be superb, and just as good as the NR (Neat Image IIRC) I ran on the 1Ds3 file after it was output by DPP (at the time DPP didn't have very good NR).

The Nikon files do seem to have much less chroma noise than I would have expected, and you'll notice that none of the Nikon's chroma noise is on the 1-4 pixel scale, which suggests strongly to me that the D700 is doing chroma NR before writing the raw file. But Canon's chroma noise cleans up beautifully in good NR processing whereas you don't want to hit luminosity on the Nikon that hard with NR because all the detail will die. So in the end, it evens out, as iso 12800 is going to be NR'ed, and the below (pre-NR) crops make the difference seem greater than it is:
http://cyberphotographer.com/d700v1ds3/12800a_sansNR.jpg

One point that I should make clear is that the blue stapler is less blue in one of the images because the man at the desk moved a piece of paper over it.

I am sure lloyd is right that at low isos the D3x betters the black noise and shadow colour fidelity of the 5D2; after all, my 1Ds3 was slightly better in those regards than my 5D2's are. I was disappointed to find that Canon had lied about the 5D2's having superior IQ to the 1Ds3, but in the end I am happier without the weight. I tolerate the very very marginal inferiority of the 5D2 in shadow noise by reminding myself that my pair of 5D2's cost less than one D3x.

Jul 20, 2009 at 03:59 PM

nixxen
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #6 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

@DubiousDrewski

I'm nearly in the same situation as you except I have not much invested in Pentax lens system. Since the K-7 was a rumor, I was very interested in it and frankly as you, I'm desapointed by it's iso performance and the poor old revisited SAFOX af system from the film age. Since discussing about weakness of Pentax system is perceived as "a crime or trolling" on all Pentax forums, very little unbiased information is available to newcomers. In fact, to the eye of pentaxians, the K-7 is the perfect camera, way better than equivalent canon or nikon. In reality, it don't even touch a (now old) D300 on IQ, speed, AF, tracking, flash system...
The price of current Pentax DA lens, despite of being designed for APC-C sensor only, have increased to insane level and at the same time old screwdrive limited lens are very hard to find.
Add this to the lack of a FF camera and you come to a dead end. Many are leaving Pentax theses day, mostly for Nikon.
My advice is to sell your Pentax lens / gear now and don't look back. I'll do as well but haven't made a definitve choice for the new system at this stage.

Jul 20, 2009 at 04:28 PM

anthonygh
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #7 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

Is anyone on here into creating worthwhile images or is pixel peeking the name of the game?

Maybe it's because I'm a poor UK resident but some of the posts on this site border on pathetic. "I can't do this..so i will trade in my megga bucks Canon kit so I can get a better shot of a duck taking off...oh..that doesn't work so time to up-grade...maybe two bodies would help"...and so on!

Some people on here are sacrificing ( via their need to trade in and upgrade ) more money than some families in some parts of the world have to feed themselves for a year.

People need to get a perspective on life and what is important...noise levels and pixel peeping is a rich persons indulgence...and has almost nothing to do with photographic creativity or image creation!

Jul 20, 2009 at 07:51 PM

Jorgen Udvang
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #8 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

anthonygh wrote:
Is anyone on here into creating worthwhile images or is pixel peeking the name of the game?

Worthwhile images? You must be joking

This is a pixel peeping forum, didn't you know?

Below is a size comparison between the K-7 and several other cameras, the K-7 in the middle. Add to that a nice set of three primes:

K-7 + 15/4.0 + 35/2.8 macro + 70/2.4 (all Limiteds) = 1,311g

All of those three lenses (and all of the other Limiteds, the total lineup is 15, 21, 31, 35, 40, 43, 70 and 77mm, some of them even smaller, lighter and/or faster than the ones mentioned) will autofocus and have IS on the K-7. If size and price doesn't matter, fine, the 5DII and D700 are excellent cameras, but for some of us, who carry a camera and a selection of high quality lenses everywhere, and with lots of travelling, the K-7 is a rather unique option.

Yes, it's more noisy at high ISO than some other cameras. In-body IS partly compensates for that, but obviously not 100%. Still, I know what I would prefer.

Oh, but I forgot; the crop sensor is a dead end. How stupid of me not to remember that. Somebody should tell Pentax, Sony, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Panasonic and Pentax that most of the cameras they make are obsolete already

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3583/3543097453_a2f1101bda_o.jpg

Edit: The K-7 uses SD cards. This is a detail that is a great advantage when travelling. They go into the SD card slot on my little Acer netbook (or any of the new Macbooks) that I bring for backup and editing when I travel, obsoleting that silly, little external card reader. And if you run out of cards, you can buy new ones at any shop that sells mobile phones. I've even seen them at Seveneleven a couple of places. And there are no pins to bend. No, that hasn't happened to me, but I met a very unhappy photographer two years ago who had that happen at a very critical moment, losing an important money shot.

Jul 20, 2009 at 09:04 PM

locke
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #9 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

I used to be a pentax user (k100d). Its primes are simply put, one of the best out there. I'm sure you know more than I do regarding this DD. But for me it didn't matter how good my lenses are when my camera body simply cannot get the focus on time. I bit the bullet and switched to canon 40d with a usm lens and never looked back. Quick and quiet focus acquisition every time.

I didn't switch to Nikon mainly because their lenses were more expensive for similar specs. But surely many will disagree...

Jul 20, 2009 at 09:21 PM

wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #10 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

brainiac wrote:
I'm afraid I haven't. I used Capture NX and DPP to convert this test, and I found NX's noise reduction to be superb, and just as good as the NR (Neat Image IIRC) I ran on the 1Ds3 file after it was output by DPP (at the time DPP didn't have very good NR).

The Nikon files do seem to have much less chroma noise than I would have expected, and you'll notice that none of the Nikon's chroma noise is on the 1-4 pixel scale, which suggests strongly to me that the D700 is doing chroma NR before writing the...Show more →

Do you have any low iso comparison shots which show the difference in shadow noise between the two and could this difference even be seen in prints if one is not lightening the blacks that much?

Jul 20, 2009 at 09:42 PM

Cliff L.
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.3 #11 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

brainiac wrote:
I tolerate the very very marginal inferiority of the 5D2 in shadow noise by reminding myself that my pair of 5D2's cost less than one D3x.

Last time I checked, here in Canada you could buy three 5D MkII's for the cost of one D3x body.

As for AF performance, while I'm sure there are situations where Nikon's AI-servo focus tracking is much better, I actually found it slightly worse (on the D700, compared to the 5D MkII) for slow or erratic-moving subjects.

Jul 21, 2009 at 12:36 PM

brainiac
Offline
[X]

p.3 #12 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

anthonygh wrote:
Is anyone on here into creating worthwhile images...?

...noise levels and pixel peeping is a rich persons indulgence...and has almost nothing to do with photographic creativity or image creation!

I was paid well to take 4000 images of a wedding this weekend. Does that count as worthwhile images? Am I a lesser photographer for caring a lot about the noise levels in the pictures that I hand over to the bride and groom, and which can never be repeated? Unlike you I can't afford to be casual about image quality because I have responsibilities.

Jul 21, 2009 at 06:31 PM

brainiac
Offline
[X]

p.3 #13 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Below is a size comparison between the K-7 and several other cameras, the K-7 in the middle.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3583/3543097453_a2f1101bda_o.jpg

Any particular reason why they left out the 450D/500D?

Jul 21, 2009 at 06:34 PM

mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #14 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

brainiac wrote:
Any particular reason why they left out the 450D/500D?

Because they're much lower-end cameras that aren't comparable in performance or price to the K7. There's a large difference between a magnesium-body, fully weather-sealed 5fps semi-pro body and a Rebel. Note the comparisons shown are to other Pentax's or high-end amateur/semi-pro bodies from the other makers (5D/50D, D700/D300, E-3/E-30, the Oly's being the most comparable overall)

The 500D can nearly match the fps and likely beats the K7 on AF performance, but lacks many other features of the K7 and the other bodies shown. Few people would actually comparison shop a Rebel and a K7.

What surprises me about that is the lack of the A900/A700 comparison.

Jul 21, 2009 at 08:13 PM

DubiousDrewski
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #15 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

anthonygh wrote:
Is anyone on here into creating worthwhile images or is pixel peeking the name of the game?

Maybe it's because I'm a poor UK resident but some of the posts on this site border on pathetic. "I can't do this..so i will trade in my megga bucks Canon kit so I can get a better shot of a duck taking off...oh..that doesn't work so time to up-grade...maybe two bodies would help"...and so on!

Some people on here are sacrificing ( via their need to trade in and upgrade ) more money than some families in some parts of the world have to...Show more →
You don't sound like you're a professional photographer. Just because we pixel-poke doesn't mean we don't go out and take photos. It's in fact the other way around - we take LOTS of photos (possibly more than you do) and we push our cameras harder than the average person tries to. This is what leads us to want better quality and reliability in our cameras. The clients demand it and we have to try to give it to them. If we can't deliver, then clients find a photographer who can. Do you see how this works?

And as for the preaching about poor families. Yes, we are mostly better-off here in western society. It's a sad reality, but what can we do about it? Donate to the poor? Volunteer? I already do that alot, and I'm sure some others here might too. What else do you want?

Jul 21, 2009 at 09:47 PM

Jorgen Udvang
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #16 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

brainiac wrote:
Any particular reason why they left out the 450D/500D?

They didn't include a Kodak Instamatic either... Richard, you're unstopable. If you can't see the difference in feature set between a 500D and the K-7, you either need to buy new reading glasses, or you should look for a position at Canon's sales department. With you on their team, they would blow all other camera brands off the British isles within days...

Jul 21, 2009 at 11:36 PM

brainiac
Offline
[X]

p.3 #17 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

Jorgen Udvang wrote:
If you can't see the difference in feature set between a 500D and the K-7, you either need to buy new reading glasses, or you should look for a position at Canon's sales department.

This crop camera is being compared for size against a full frame camera, but NOT against what is probably the number 1 selling APS-C DSLR range - the Rebels.

To say that the K7 should not be compared against the 500D is ridiculous.
APS-C ...check
15 Mpixel ...check
limited AF points ...check
HD video ...check
isos up to 3200, expandable to 6400 ...check

The K7 has in body IS which is a winner over the 500D, but its image quality and AF are probably inferior to the 500D and yet it costs $500 more. If you think a metal body and automatic sensor levelling make this a different category of camera then you are planning to keep your camera for too long and you're too easily impressed by marketing gimmicks. The 500D really is the camera that the K7 has to beat, and it only seems to do that if you give undue weight to feature lists and not enough weight to the stuff that really matters: the sensor/IQ, the AF, and the range of available lenses.

As for me being a Canon whore, say what you like, but I don't give a crap about brands except in so far as they offer a reliable way of understanding products. I am ready to switch to any brand at any time, as long as the product has significant advantage. I have already switched brands many times. I have no brand loyalty at all.

Jul 22, 2009 at 05:16 AM

mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #18 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

Richard:

You just listed everything the two cameras have in common. They've got a lot more differences than commonalities. By your description nobody should ever look at a 50D because it's differences compared to a 500D are just marketing. Also, by those arguments, you should be complaining that the K7 is not compared against the D90 and D60.

What the K7 has that the 500D doesn't
Weather Sealing (K7 is fully sealed, 500D has no sealing)
Dual-wheel interface with primarily physical controls
100% Pentaprism finder
15 RAW buffer
1/8000 max shutter speed
magnesium body shell (Which isn't marketing, it's significantly more durable than the somewhat fragile rebels, the few plastic bodies which can compare on durability come from Oly, Nikon or Pentax)
in-body IS
Sensor levelling
1.8 fps faster drive (5.2fps vs 3.4)
Wireless flash control on the popup.
9 cross type sensors in 11 points vs 1 cross type sensor in 9 points for AF
MUCH better selection of crop-oriented lenses, and pretty much all of those outperform the EF-S equivalent.

I know your answer to everything compact seems to be 'get a 450D/500D', but frankly while they're nice consumer bodies that produce excellent output, the bodies themselves are rather crappy and simply don't compare in build or ergonomics to higher-end bodies. Nobody looking seriously at a K7 or similar body is going to get a 500D instead unless economics force them to.

Jul 22, 2009 at 08:17 AM

brainiac
Offline
[X]

p.3 #19 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

mawz wrote:
They've got a lot more differences than commonalities.

I don't see it that way. For me they are remarkably similar, i.e. APS-C digital SLR's. One costs less than twice the price of the other. They both use Bayer sensors to record 15 Mpixels of data. They are about the same generation. In my list I didn't just pick the things they had in common, I listed the features that are fundamental to the usefulness of the two cameras. For me they would be virtually interchangeable, and if someone handed me either to do a particular job I would be quite happy. Just as we share 90+% of our DNA with chimps, so these two cameras are overwhlmingly more similar than different.

By your description nobody should ever look at a 50D because it's differences compared to a 500D are just marketing.

I think that's a fair point.

>Also, by those arguments, you should be complaining that the K7 is not compared against the D90 and D60.

Let me lodge that complaint right now. The image embedded above should certainly have compared the K7 to similarly sized DSLRs from other brands - otherwise what does it prove? That's my point.

I know your answer to everything compact seems to be 'get a 450D/500D', but frankly while they're nice consumer bodies that produce excellent output, the bodies themselves are rather crappy and simply don't compare in build or ergonomics to higher-end bodies. Nobody looking seriously at a K7 or similar body is going to get a 500D instead unless economics force them to.

This raises a whole lot of issues, when my point simply was that if you want to compare the K7's size it doesn't make much sense to avoid comparison with the big selling APS-C cameras like the much cheaper Nikons and Canons. I am sorry I mentioned only the Rebels, I just picked them as an example.

Edited on Jul 22, 2009 at 10:01 AM · View previous versions

Jul 22, 2009 at 09:35 AM

mawz
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.3 #20 · Massive jump-ship. What to do?

brainiac wrote:
This raises a whole lot of issues, when my point simply was that if you want to compare the K7's size it doesn't make much sense to avoid comparison with the big selling APS-C cameras like the much cheaper Nikons and Canons. I am sorry I mentioned only the Rebels, I just picked them as an example.

OK, I can agree with that but I do think you're missing the point of the K7. It's all about delivering performance comparable to similar-priced cameras in a far smaller package without giving up the rest of the package. If all you want is a small camera, the Rebels, K-m or other low-end DSLR's or a G1 are a better choice (especially the tiny K-m).

The size comparison was against cameras of similar pricepoint, specification or place in the lineup. With the exception of one body shown (another Pentax), all of the bodies they compared to are semi-pro or advanced amateur bodies, like the K7. Comparing against small consumer bodies is beside the point (at that, the K7 is about the same size as the new Sony low-end body and slightly larger than a Rebel).

The big deal on the K7 is now you can get a body with the performance of a advanced amateur body without paying the size and weight penalty even Olympus (the supposed king of small) forces on you.

Jul 22, 2009 at 09:49 AM

1 2 3 4 5 end
FM Forums \| Leica & Alternative Gear \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 5 end