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Archive 2009 · What defines a "Pro"?

  
 
Alan Louie
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p.2 #1 · What defines a "Pro"?


IMO there's two definitions... depending on what you view 'pro' as

Professional (business). Photography is your primary job and focus. You expend the majority of your time in pursuit of photography jobs, equipment/resources, and training

Proficient (skill). The person who sits there longer than anyone else for the perfect light. IE, a person who, when photographing, subordinates nearly all else in pursuit of the photograph.

I largely have that second definition because I don't consider myself a pro photographer for either business and I rarely (although have) wait 2 hours for the sun to hit that scene the right way My visiting family got rather impatient with me at the Grand Canyon a couple weeks ago.



Jul 06, 2009 at 10:05 AM
zoetmb
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p.2 #2 · What defines a "Pro"?


A pro is someone who makes a significant part of their income from photography. If you are paid to take photos (or if you sell photos - stock, fine art, etc), and can't afford NOT to stop doing photography without having things repossessed, I'd say you're a pro. If you can stop at anytime but still make a few sales or do a few jobs here and there for a little extra money, semi-pro. If you sold one photo to a friend last year, you're amateur (especially if after the sale you realized you lost money)

I disagree with this definition. If Paul McCartney never recorded another song for commercial release and never performed again to a paying crowd, would he now be defined as an amateur musician? If one works regularly as a pro photographer, but the majority of their income comes from investments or inheritance, are they not still a pro?

But I do agree that since there is no license necessary to become a "pro" photographer and there are many pros whose photography is far inferior to so-called "amateurs", this is all somewhat meaningless. Going back 50 years, it used to be that for the most part, only those who garnered income from photography could afford professional-level equipment and there was a definite distinction between pro and amateur equipment. My father was a "pro" and always walked around with his 4x5 Crown Graflex and hundreds of flashbulbs. If he didn't want to use the Graflex, he'd occasionally shoot with a medium-format Rollei. In the studio, almost everything was still shot 8x10. It wasn't until 1966 that he bought his first 35mm camera but it was a long time before he integrated it into his professional shooting.

That distinction has eroded. People can get amazing results out of cameras like a Nikon D40. In addition, the web has made it possible for amateurs to get their work seen. In photography, music and video, the kinds of efforts people have put into their creations, frequently requiring substantial investment, is truly amazing. While there's lots of junk, there's also lots of very professional looking work on sites like this one, videos on YouTube, etc. And some of them required substantial investment with little hope of return other than scoring the amount of times their media has been viewed (for supposed ego gratification).

And the opposite is also true: amateurs with money purchase ridiculously high-end equipment with no idea how to use it. An acquaintance of mine who knew nothing about photography (and still doesn't) showed up one day (years ago) with a brand new F4, while I was primarily using an N80 (and getting paid for the work). I couldn't believe it. This guy couldn't tell you what an F-stop was or how to adjust it. But he wanted the "best", so that's what he bought (at least insofar as the body was concerned -- then he bought "kit" lenses). That's when you see posts from people claiming that the camera is crap because they didn't get the results they expected. When this guy went digital, he became a little more sensible and purchased a D80. But I'd bet that some of these people consider themselves "pro" because they've bought professional equipment.

So if one wants to define a pro as to whether they have earned either a part, a majority or all of their income from photography, that's okay with me, but don't confuse that with any definition as to the quality or the impact of that work. In my particular case, I earn a minority of my income from photography and I consider myself to be a "semi-pro". (Nikon considers you to be an amateur unless you earn ALL of your income from photography - they won't let you into NPS otherwise. Personally, I think that's a bit over-restrictive in an age when people might work in many media.)



Jul 06, 2009 at 10:55 AM
kinetic
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p.2 #3 · What defines a "Pro"?


A Pro is anyone who relies on photography for income, regardless of equipment, skill, or experience.


Jul 06, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Lord Kimbo
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p.2 #4 · What defines a "Pro"?


1) someone that consistency delivers excellent results and is very knowledgeable on the subject.

2) is contracted and paid for the work they do (which relates to #1).



Jul 06, 2009 at 11:41 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #5 · What defines a "Pro"?


Lord Kimbo wrote:
1) someone that consistency delivers excellent results and is very knowledgeable on the subject.

2) is contracted and paid for the work they do (which relates to #1).



I don't know, I see some crappy work from people who get paid for it.



Jul 06, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Lord Kimbo
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p.2 #6 · What defines a "Pro"?


agreed.

that's why i listed 2 definitions ... because i see it as one or the other ... and the good ones are both.



Jul 06, 2009 at 12:18 PM
millsart
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p.2 #7 · What defines a "Pro"?


Lord Kimbo wrote:
1) someone that consistency delivers excellent results and is very knowledgeable on the subject.

2) is contracted and paid for the work they do (which relates to #1).



Being a pro has nothing to do with excellent results or knowledge.

I've known lots of "pro's" who while making a living off their photography frankly aren't all that good and are many times not that knowledgeable either.

In fact, I bet if you take 20 "pro's" and 20 "amatuers" from an enthusiast website like this one, the amatuers are going to probably to know more about the technical details of photography, the specs of every camera and lens made etc


Its many a times the amatuer who has the better gear and gets to shoot more exciting places as well.

Ive known plenty of lawyers and doctors who's income allows them to not only buy the latest and greatest but also travel anywhere in the world they want to shoot.

I'm a working "pro" and I'm going around shooting local events, high school sports etc for a weekly newspaper. Not very glamourus

Who do you think is going on those $8000 per person photo safari's to Kenya, or those Luminous Landscape workshots in Iceland, Antartica etc for a mere $10,500 per person ?

A bunch of working pro's or some wealthy amatuers who think photography is a great escapre from the boardroom, courtroom or operating room



Jul 06, 2009 at 12:23 PM
millsart
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p.2 #8 · What defines a "Pro"?


Worth mentioning as well that it would be nice if everyone getting paid for their work was in fact knowledge and had excellent results. Every couple who's gotten horrible wedding photos from a "pro" they paid $1500 to surely would agree.

But of course it would also be nice if every recording artist who sells millions of records actually could sing or play an instrument as well!

But thats not the way the world works. There are still going to be some total hacks making lots of money off their photography and Miley Cyress is still going to make probably one billion dollars this year



Jul 06, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Steve Perry
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p.2 #9 · What defines a "Pro"?


zoetmb wrote:
I disagree with this definition. If Paul McCartney never recorded another song for commercial release and never performed again to a paying crowd, would he now be defined as an amateur musician? If one works regularly as a pro photographer, but the majority of their income comes from investments or inheritance, are they not still a pro?


No, he'd be a retired professional musician.

And what if he never got into music all that much? Say his main income was from selling cars, but he did the occasional bar gig once or twice a year, then would you consider him a true professional? I wouldn't, but he's still have the same voice and quality even though he didn't have "pro" status. He'd be a gifted amateur, like many of the amazing photogs here at FM. Amateur ain't a bad word

Steve




Jul 06, 2009 at 12:38 PM
millsart
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p.2 #10 · What defines a "Pro"?


Steve is right, theres a strange idea that not being a "pro" makes someone a lesser photographer (or musician lol)

Paul would still be the talented songwriter and performer, just he'd be able to enjoy his craft far more because he'd be doing it on his terms

If he doesnt feel well, he doesnt have to sing, because its not like he's got an arena of fans who paid good money he can't disapoint

If he wants to write a certain style of song, he's free to do so, because its not like he's got a label thats demanding a radio friendly hit

In his freetime he can relax and do whatever because its not like he's got to be concerned with book keeping, taxes, keeping up on royality payments, licensing his music etc.



Being a "pro" really isn't all that fun much of the time and actually really cuts into your enjoyment of shooting. Don't get me wrong, I think its awesome doing photography for a living, BUT, at the same time, after I've spent all day shooting 4 or 5 assignmetns all over town, when I'm finally done for the day, I just can't really get to exciting about picking up my camera again and going to the park and taking some pictures of flowers etc like I used to.

Photography used to be my fun activity when I got home from my day job. It was something I looked forward to doing all day long. Couldnt wait to get that new lens in the mail, and go around and shoot in the backyard or do a bunch of test shots lol

Luckily since photography became more of a job than a hobby, I picked up the guitar and now I've got music to do as my fun thing after work.

Wonder if perhaps being a popular recording artist is in my future so then I can make a living doing that and go back to doing photography as a fun passtime when I've got a day off tour ?



Jul 06, 2009 at 01:00 PM
Steve Perry
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p.2 #11 · What defines a "Pro"?


Millstart - I used to be a professional photographer - I earned 100% of my living for about 4 years from photography and had the same experience. I ended up spending time shooting the stuff I didn't like - weddings, portraits, teams, etc. and really didn't feel like going out and doing the kind of photography I love - nature and wildlife. I got to the point that after I found another opportunity, I didn't pick up a camera for several years due to burnout. Now I go out, shoot what I want, and on my terms. I'm getting ready to start selling stuff again to magazines, calendars etc (if they still like me ), but I won't be going back to weddings, that's for sure!


Jul 06, 2009 at 01:09 PM
roman.johnston
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p.2 #12 · What defines a "Pro"?


I would much rather be known as a master photographer than a professional photographer any day.

Still working to atain that title...who knows?

You can call me anything but "late for dinner"

All I know is my landscape business is growing nicely. I work daytime as an IT perfessional, and all my other time is dedicated to the craft of lanscape photography. My customers are happy and word spreads about my work via my happy customers and that makes me happy.

When the photography makes more money than my day job.....I will change over to full time.

Roman

Edited on Jul 06, 2009 at 01:33 PM · View previous versions



Jul 06, 2009 at 01:30 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.2 #13 · What defines a "Pro"?


NPS (Nikon Professional Services) would define it as someone who can prove they make the majority of their living as a photographer. While many Nikon or Canon pros for that matter may not use those services, it would be nice to be able to qualify for them.

Edited on Jul 06, 2009 at 03:47 PM · View previous versions



Jul 06, 2009 at 01:32 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #14 · What defines a "Pro"?


Gregg Heckler wrote:
NPS (Nikon Professional Services) would define it as someone who can prove they make the majority of their living as a photographer. While many Nikon or Canon pros for that matter may not use those services, it would be nice to be able to qualify for them.



NPS would defince it as someone who ownes two pro-level SLRs and is sponcered by another NPS member. It has nothing to do with actually being a pro.



Jul 06, 2009 at 01:40 PM
lxdesign
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p.2 #15 · What defines a "Pro"?


Well, I would consider myself a semi-pro... I make money from my photographic work, but its not my main income. The great thing about my situation, is that I get to shoot what I want, when I want, and make a few bucks along the way. Personally, I have never liked the labels that our society feels it has to use. I'd rather just be known as a "Photographer".

thank you.



Jul 06, 2009 at 01:47 PM
millsart
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p.2 #16 · What defines a "Pro"?


Andre Labonte wrote:
NPS would defince it as someone who ownes two pro-level SLRs and is sponcered by another NPS member. It has nothing to do with actually being a pro.



I know they used to want to see tear sheets of published work as well.

I would certainly hope that NPS doesn't require you simply to own two expensive camera's and have a friend who shoots for a living these days.

That should be their WFAWWSTJBTBA$4KC dept (Well Funded Amateur Who Wants Special Treatment Just Because They Bought A $4000 Camera)



Jul 06, 2009 at 01:49 PM
Dick on Aruba
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p.2 #17 · What defines a "Pro"?


A photographer by PROfession (regardless the results)


Jul 07, 2009 at 04:02 PM
JHerr
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p.2 #18 · What defines a "Pro"?


A pro is someone who argues on internet forums about what a pro is


Jul 07, 2009 at 04:12 PM
Gregory.Rotter
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p.2 #19 · What defines a "Pro"?


Someone with lots and lots of megaploxels in their camara.


Jul 07, 2009 at 04:35 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #20 · What defines a "Pro"?


millsart wrote:
I know they used to want to see tear sheets of published work as well.

I would certainly hope that NPS doesn't require you simply to own two expensive camera's and have a friend who shoots for a living these days.

That should be their WFAWWSTJBTBA$4KC dept (Well Funded Amateur Who Wants Special Treatment Just Because They Bought A $4000 Camera)




You are correct, they do require a tear sheet as well.

http://www.nikonpro.com/AboutNPS.aspx

Thanks for the correction.



Jul 07, 2009 at 05:36 PM
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