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Archive 2009 · Starting from scratch with Nikon

  
 
Makten
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p.2 #1 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Andre Labonte wrote:
You might consider a D300 and get better glass. With a $5000 budget the D700 eats up $3000 leaving only $2000 for glass. You end up with a lot slower consumer level glass that way.


I think you are forgetting that DX demands 1.2 stops faster lenses for being "as fast" as lenses are on FX. There are no equivalents to 24-70/2.8, 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 for DX. Not to mention the "slow" wide angles of f/2.8.

With a $5000 budget and no long teles involved, FX is a no-brainer. A cheap Tamron 28-75/2.8 on FX will easily blow away the 17-55 on DX (edit: not the build though).

Edit: But there's ONE good reason to go DX. And that would be for choosing a smaller and lighter camera, like the D90.

Edited on Jun 11, 2009 at 02:12 PM · View previous versions



Jun 11, 2009 at 02:07 PM
bradnyc
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p.2 #2 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


I agree with Tobin.

D700
50 f1.4G or the 50 1.4 Sigma
35 f2 Nikon
24 f2.8 Nikon
85 f1.4 Nikon

The items in bold is what I have. I used to have the 85 1.4, but sold that to fund my favorite, nikon 24-70/2.8




Jun 11, 2009 at 02:08 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #3 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


photomatt88 wrote:
This is the best advice I have heard all day. Get good FX lenses first. Any body can take great pics with a 24-70 2.8 Man I love this lens.



I agree, if you are set on going to FX, then get the good FX glass and update the body later.



Jun 11, 2009 at 02:39 PM
Makten
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p.2 #4 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Why would the OP be "learning on a D90" if he came from an EOS 1D?

Sorry guys, but there seems to be alot of "FX envy" going on here. DX is really not an option if you have a $5000 budget and your interest is in the range of "normal" focal lengths (~24-105 mm).

There's nothing to win. "Good FX lenses" is like whatever lens there is, if you compare to most DX lenses or FX lenses on DX. Of course there are exceptions, but not in that range.

Edit: And please; this is not some sort of war. DX is fine, but not in this case at the mentioned price tag and FL coverage.



Jun 11, 2009 at 03:35 PM
Southswede
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p.2 #5 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Andre Labonte wrote:
Well, I'm not sure I would call the D700 the "best" DSLR on the market, though it is one of the best offered today.

$2350 for a D700 is a steal. Is it a USA model? I think you will be hard pressed to find that again from a reputable dealer. I qouted B&H new prices; I'm sure you can get a similar or even better deal on a D300. There are advantages to both formats. High ISO performance is over-rated IMO. It all depends on what you are doing. For me, the effective reach of the DX format
...Show more

Adding the D700 to your cart makes the price $2349.95 right now....opps..it's already been posted...


Edited on Jun 11, 2009 at 03:47 PM · View previous versions



Jun 11, 2009 at 03:41 PM
Avi B
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p.2 #6 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


I say you go with the D3 if you like vertical integrated grip bodies (aka "pro" bodies)...


* a mid zoom to be used as a walk around for family snapshots and ad hoc photo opportuniites

24-70 f/2.8 -- may as well

* a fast prime with good bokeh, primarily for portraits, somewhere in the 85mm-105mm range

If you want AF, then the 85 f/1.4... If you don't mind manual focus, then the AIS 105 f/2.5 is very nice

* a fast prime in the 35-50mm range

50 f/1.4 AFD (faster focussing than the AFS version on a pro body); if you don't mind MF, then AIS 35 f/1.4...

* a lens with macro ability

This depends on your preferred working distance. Infact you can get the 105 VR, which will work well both as macro and the portrait lens... Kill two birds with one stone.

* a flash

SB900

* a cheap wide angle prime for occasional landscape type photography. This lens will see minimal use, but would still need to have good performance (will be used almost solely stopped down to f8-11).

Ummm 18-35 should do. Or spring for the 17-35 f/2.8.



Jun 11, 2009 at 03:44 PM
Chestnut
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p.2 #7 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Hey, jshowyin,

Sorry about the theft.. hope you had good insurance that will help finance your new set-up.

I do some pretty similar stuff (portraits, natural lighting preferred, no kids yet tho. I also do sports, wildlife, and a lot of documentary/macro stuff at work - think CSI's camera man on steroids), and have the following:

nikon 24-70 f/2.8 - love it over the sigma: better color and contrast. great lens for walk-around, as well as casual/full body portraits.

nikon 105mm macro - I use this for both macro and portraits (have the VR version, had the D, both are great)

nikon 85 f/1.4 - just a dream to use, great IQ, great bokeh. (kinda wish it had AF-S for MF over-ride though)

nikon 200f/2 - great for head shots, etc... kinda fun to use

nikon 18-35 - I used to have this lens... REALLY regret selling it. I think it's seriously under-rated. if you need a wide angle for landscape, and you're stopping down anyways, this is a great (and inexpensive) option. of course, the 14-24 is amazing, but I still baby it too much since it doesn't take a front filter and it's a brick to carry around... yes, more so than the 24-70.

for a fast 35-50 prime, 50mm 1.4 or 1.8 are both nice, but aren't great. between the Sigma 50 1.4 vs Nikon 50 1.4, I personally prefer the Sig, but that's a very personal choice as they're both nice (my lab has the Nik). Nikon will offer weather sealing while the Sig doesn't. Between the 1.8 and 1.4, the biggest difference is price... if you want better IQ, I always end up grabbing the 85 anyways. My personal experience with the latest Nikon DSLRs is that if I want good bokeh and shallow DOF, my 85mm is doing more work than the 50mm. when I need high speed, the high ISO of the body is the go-to now. I find myself using the 50mm less and less... but of course, if you like the 50mm focal length, there's no real substitute. I do own a Sig 50mm afterall :-)

I also use my lab's 60mm macro. it's not bad at all... but since I already have the 105, I didn't need a 60. The 60 decreases the working distance substantially, so consider that when picking which macro you want.

I also recently acquired the 24mm PC-E.. It's fun, and I love the Tilt and Shift - I miss working with view cameras... so that would make for a great wide angle landscape as well.

hope that helps.



Jun 11, 2009 at 04:10 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #8 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Makten wrote:
Why would the OP be "learning on a D90" if he came from an EOS 1D?

Sorry guys, but there seems to be alot of "FX envy" going on here. DX is really not an option if you have a $5000 budget and your interest is in the range of "normal" focal lengths (~24-105 mm).

There's nothing to win. "Good FX lenses" is like whatever lens there is, if you compare to most DX lenses or FX lenses on DX. Of course there are exceptions, but not in that range.

Edit: And please; this is not some sort of war.
...Show more


DX is a perfectly good option going from the 1D to the D300 ... the advantages of FX are over-blown. But we have had this argument before and I will agree to disagree with you. But, it's all in what the OP wants and will be doing.



Jun 11, 2009 at 04:28 PM
jshowyin
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p.2 #9 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Hello All,

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to post and share your accumulated wisdom. Much appreciated and it has given me some things to ponder and new avenues to explore.

Just to clarify a couple of things:

* I still have a lot to learn re: photography, but I have been shooting for a couple of years with Canon, starting an EOS 300 (film SLR), I think it was, and a 50E (models could have diff names here Stateside, but that's what they were called in Australia) and with a 1D MkI / XSi combo at the end. So while I accept there will be a learning curve with the controls of a Nikon DSLR, I am not at the 'learn basic photography 101' stage. Also no real desire to go back to film.

* re: Nikon 24-70mm - I know this by all accounts is a fantastic lens, however, I am mainly looking for a zoom to be a walk around lens for when photography is not the main purpose of being out and about. When I have the opportunity to be more purposeful with my photography, eg. meet up with friends with the intention of taking their portraits, then I would prefer to go with a pair of nice fast primes. On a related note, I used to use the Canon 28-70L on my 1D and 1D MkII bodies. Loved the combo, but after about 1.5 years of carting it around everywhere decided to get a second lighter/smaller body for travel and family outings. Ended up with a XSi with a Canon 50/1.4 mounted on the front. Weighed about 1/3 of the weight of the 1D/28-70L rig, could fit in a much smaller bag, ended up taking it way more places and ended up with an even greater number of pics of my two young daughters. So, while I am sure that a D700/24-70 combo can and would produce great results, for my needs I am fairly certain I will pick up the Tamron 28-75 - lighter weight, decent to excellent IQ and much cheaper, giving me more money to invest in my primes.

* While not light compared to some of the other bodies available in the Canon and Nikon ranges, the weight of the D700 will not be a burden (used to shooting with the 1D). My intention is to use the D700 as my sole camera body.

* I have considered the D300 and haven't ruled it out completely at this stage. However, I don't really shoot anything requiring a lot of reach, so the 1.5x is not really a factor. High ISO performance is one of the key things that draws me to the D700.

* If I do make the move to Nikon, one of the other main factors will be the 51-pt AF. So the Nikon DX cameras, other than the D300, have no real appeal.

* I agree with the suggestions that investment should be made primarily in good glass. Would I be way off base suggesting from the little I know that much of Nikon's best glass can be found in their zooms and wide angle stuff? (neither of which holds great interest for me. Maybe I should just stick with Canon

* I am not jumping on the D700 bandwagon purely to have the latest and greatest DSLR, although I will concede that for many people's uses it may very well be the latter. I have always bought used in the past and will buy my gear based on what is available that lets me take the pictures I want to take. If I was in my current situation 1-2 years from now and the D700's successor was the current model, buying a used D700 would almost be a no brainer. Alternatively, if the Canon 5D had better AF performance I would have already purchased a used one of them and I wouldn't be typing this now (5D MkII holds no real appeal for me as the AF is no better and I have no real need for the extra MP of the original MkI). My gear journey thus far has been as follows:
- about 5 years ago bought a whole Canon 10D kit from a guy who was giving up photography - 10D, 420EX, Sigma fish, Bigma (50-500), Canon 20-35, Canon 50/1.4, plus a couple of bags, accessories, monopod and a tripod. Turned around and sold what I didn't need. Came out about $1500 in front, while keeping the 10D, 50mm and flash.
- after about 1.5 years got a great deal on a used 1D MkII. Purchased it and sold the 10D.
- Got a chance to try the 1D MkI and realised that 4MP were plenty, when the files were as gorgeous as the ones coming out of that sensor. Sold my MkII, bought a MkI and pocketed about $1250 to put into lenses down the track.
- along the way owned quite a few different lenses, settling on the following lineup - Canon 50/1.4 and 85/1.8, Sigma 150 Macro, 580EX, 28-70/2.8L.
- got a chance to play with a Canon 5D for an extended period of time - bought it for a friend back home in Australia when the Aussie dollar was really strong. Got to use it for 4 months before heading home for a visit and reluctantly delivering it to him.
- bought a XSi last year as a walk around camera. Ended up selling the 28-70L to fund another hobby (a guitar).
- break-in at our house in May 09 and here I am.

* Will probably hold off on investing in a flash unit for now to save a few dollars to put into lenses.

Didn't mean for this post to get so lengthy. Thanks again for all your input.



Jun 11, 2009 at 04:30 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #10 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


^^^ Based on what you just wrote, it seems to me you would be best served by staying with Canon going with a 5D. Right now Canon has the best prime lenses (non-macro) below the 200mm mark. The 5D apparently has great high ISO performance, though not likely as good as the D700. I think Nikon has the edge on the bodies right now. Tough choice.


Jun 11, 2009 at 04:38 PM
ReyGay
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p.2 #11 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


DaveEP wrote:
....and you don't learn nearly as quickly with film! People tend to take far fewer shots and experiment less with film because every shot costs orders of magnitude more than digital, and you also don't get the kind of instant feedback you are looking for. By the time you get the developed shot in your hands it's too late to try something different.

The analogy with the motorbike it not a good one. Sorry.



When I started with film, I spent thousand of dollars just for film and processing. I guess I wasn't being relevant...I started photography when digital cameras were not known to mankind. I still standby with what I said. It is best to start with film.


My Flickr Gallery
My Nikonians gallery
View my DNA



Jun 12, 2009 at 02:56 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #12 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


ReyGay wrote:
When I started with film, I spent thousand of dollars just for film and processing. I guess I wasn't being relevant...I started photography when digital cameras were not known to mankind. I still standby with what I said. It is best to start with film.

My Flickr Gallery
My Nikonians gallery
View my DNA



I started with film when digital did not exist. I could not disagree more!



Jun 12, 2009 at 05:52 AM
panos.v
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p.2 #13 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


From an educational point of view, a digital SLR is far better than any film one. The fact that you can see your mistake right there on the spot is far more valuable than any "discipline" you will teach yourself with a manual camera and a 50. You can still operate the dSLR in manual mode and use a 50 on it.

When I bought my first dSLR, I learned in the first 6 months a lot more than I learned in 5 years of film shooting. Just the fact that you can try anything you want without having to keep an eye on the number of films you use is invaluable. The initial cost for digital is not even higher than film nowadays, you can either get a used F50 and 28-90 for £100 or a D40 with a 18-55 for less than £200. That's about 10x 36exp rolls of film and processing.

I love film, in fact I'm bidding on a RZ67 right now but for teaching exposure, composition and the rest, I'll take a D40 with a kit lens over any film camera.



Jun 12, 2009 at 06:06 AM
photomatt88
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p.2 #14 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


jshowyin wrote:
* I agree with the suggestions that investment should be made primarily in good glass. Would I be way off base suggesting from the little I know that much of Nikon's best glass can be found in their zooms and wide angle stuff? (neither of which holds great interest for me. Maybe I should just stick with Canon



jshowyin --- I think you are starting to see the light here. Canon glass (especially primes) are very hard to beat. From what little I know, Nikon can not hold a candle to the wide range and quality of Canon glass. Nikon does have some very very good zooms and wide angle stuff, but they really need to step up their lens program.

Having said that, and having been converted from a Canon 5D, the D700 is far superior to the 5D. The autofocus in the D700 is just so much better than the 5D, I cannot describe it. The high ISO is pretty amazing. I have very usable, very clean pics at 6400 ISO.

Luckily for me, the Nikon zooms fit my style of shooting. The 24-70 is every bit as good or better than the Canon equivalent. I'm looking at getting the 85 1.4, but I'm sure it will not even come close to the Canon 85 1.2.

Good Luck!



Jun 12, 2009 at 09:51 AM
luminosity
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p.2 #15 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


I think Nikon's zooms are superior, but Canon's primes are the best around right now. Nikon just has no answer right now for the 24 1.4, 35 1.4 or 135 2 (I know the 135 DC exists, but the DC component is blamed in many cases for focusing issues, and it's an older design in general).

If you're a prime shooter, stick with Canon.



Jun 12, 2009 at 11:17 AM
Gilligan
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p.2 #16 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


I think the D700 paired withe a 24-70 plus perhaps a 50 f/1.4 would be a great start. Along with an SB-900. I find the bokeh from the 24-70 outstanding, and you could build on the system as time permist. Adding perhaps an 85mm, 70-200 or 80-200.


Jun 12, 2009 at 12:07 PM
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p.2 #17 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


There is a lot of debate as to whether the Canon 85 1.2 is actually a better lens than the Nikon 85 1.4 AF-D. It's indeed a newer lens and has a silent, built-in focus motor, but both lenses are well regarded as spectacular and best in class. With a fast 85mm lens, it's really all about Bokeh, and I think you'd be hard to find a winner amongst the two in that category. Also, despite it's age and screw-driven motor, the Nikon focuses quite a bit faster than the Canon -- but focusing is very precise on both. The battle of the 85s is also one of the very few Nikon vs Canon battles where the Nikon wins in price -- even after the recent hikes.

As for other primes, I agree Canon has the leg up -- especially with their 35 1.4, 24 1.4. and 135 2. However, as has been mentioned, Nikon's best zooms trump the competition -- and from an IQ perspective keep pace with Canon and Nikon's best primes. Of course, Nikon's best zooms are quite heavy, and if you crave a sub 2.8 aperture, a prime lens is your only option.

Right now if you're a prime nut I'd recommend you stick with Canon. However, rent both a 5D Mk II and a D700 for a week and see which you like better. Knowing both Canon and Nikon's release histories, it's more likely in my opinion that Nikon will release updates to their prime lenses than Canon will release a true competitor to the D700 (which is, for all intensive purposes, the digital EOS-3 everyone has long been wanting -- just with a Nikon mount.)



Jun 12, 2009 at 01:53 PM
dj dunzie
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p.2 #18 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


You might consider the 24-70 as your zoom, and after using it not find a real need to go with so many primes. A kit with the D700, 24-70 f2.8, 150mm f2.8 EX Siggy, and an 85mm f1.8 or f1.4 does all you want. If you want to add a real wide option, give the Siggy 12-24 EX a go. Pretty decent optic really and super WIDE!

That 24-70 is entirely impressive.



Jun 12, 2009 at 02:28 PM
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p.2 #19 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


I was in an identical situation as you are this past winter. I come from a Canon (30D & 5D) and Pentax (K20D) background. I chose the D700 and do not regret it one bit. It's the finest digital camera I have ever owned.

I initially chose the Nikon 35/2, 85/1.4D, & Sigma 50/1.4 to start with. I'm extremely happy with all three. I've added a few other lenses since, but the 85/1.4 is on my camera most of the time. What a lens!



Jun 12, 2009 at 02:43 PM
jshowyin
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p.2 #20 · Starting from scratch with Nikon


Hello Everyone,

Thanks once again to all who have shared their thoughts on my situation. It's all mixing around in my head at the moment. Keep them coming.

If only the 5D had a better and more flexible AF system. Not even necessarily of the caliber of the D700/D300 or Canon 1D's, just better than it is.

My main train of thought at the moment is mulling over the two points below:
* would prefer a camera that can handle shooting moving kids in low light, utilising natural/available light.
* the IQ of the lenses doesn't even factor into the decision if the gear can't reliably get the shot

So, based on my experience with the 5D MkI, I was able to get great images reliably in almost 'all' situations outside of the above. I used the centre AF point almost 100% of the time as this was the best performing. In decent light this worked fine. In the above situation though the results were much more variable. A combination of:
* low light --> larger aperture to keep shutter speed up --> shallower DOF
* centre point AF --> need to focus and then recompose --> delay of fraction of second between focus and shutter --> kids move --> critical sharpness lost

So then I return to my two points of pondering above. While my current style of shooting probably lends itself to sticking with Canon and their range of primes, will moving to a D700/D300 give me the ability to nail more of the shots I want?

At this stage, taking on board all the great advice above, I am leaning towards:
* a new D700
* used lenses:
- 28-75mm Tammy or Nikon 24-70 (or possibly the older 28-70 - what are the key differences)
- Nikon 35/2 (would buy this for a lighter walk around lens if I went the Nikon 24/28-70 option above)
- either a Nikon 105VR (for both portrait and macro) or Siggy 150EX + Nikon 85/1.4 or 85/1.8
- no great knowledge of used Nikon glass prices, so unsure of approx budget for the above kit.

Coming in a close second(all used):
* 5D MkI
* 430EXII or 580EXII
* either Canon 35/1.4 + 85/1.8 + Tammy 28-75 (approx $3050-3200)
OR Canon Tammy 28-75 + Canon 50/1.4 + 85/1.2 (approx $3750-3900)
* both options give me little wiggle room in my budget for another lens or accessories.

Still not sure. Thanks again for any shared wisdom.



Jun 12, 2009 at 06:32 PM
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