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Archive 2009 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?

  
 
dhphoto
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p.2 #1 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


dan101 wrote:
I was once told by a representative of Nikon that consumers feed the pro market. If they had to rely on only pro business they would have been out of business a long time ago. I think you have to sell lots of the high end lenses to pay for r&d and the market is only so big for multi thousand dollar lenses. This is why high end lenses that are taken out of demo service are destroyed and not sold as demo's. They may sell a million p&s cameras and only a few hundred of high end lenses. You
...Show more

I'm sure it goes further than that, I bet the P&S market props up the consumer dslr market too. Canon must sell hundreds of P&S's for every XS or 500D dslr.

David



Jun 11, 2009 at 08:43 AM
mfurman
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p.2 #2 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


dan101:
This is why high end lenses that are taken out of demo service are destroyed and not sold as demo's.

I am still not sure why. Could you please elaborate?



Jun 11, 2009 at 08:53 AM
omarlyn
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p.2 #3 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


oajlu wrote:
2. DSLR is no longer equal to professional. a lot of amateurs use high end DSLR and L lens. pros has to buy more expensive gears if they want to show up their expertise by showing their equipments. of course, if you won awards, that would help.


I've NEVER heard of a pro showing their 'gear' to prove their worth as a photographer...Conversly, I've NEVER heard of a client, asking to see 'gear' either.

Don't pro's & client usually rely on Portfolios & recommendations? The whole notion of showing off 'gear' in lieu of showing off skills is really quite ridiculous.

Omar



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:01 AM
n0b0
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p.2 #4 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


SmegHead wrote:
You can't make a scene and possibly piss off the clients by getting uppity with Uncle Bob for hanging around, but you CANNOT let him take pictures of your poses or you're going to lose a ton of cash, especially if you are charging for prints and not just a flat appearance fee.


I think it's not the pose shots that you need to worry about, but the candid shots. Well the photographer at my sister wedding did at least.

He just kept getting in the way, walking into the frame when I wanted to take some candid shots, happened throughout the reception. Damn I felt like smashing my camera on his face. Plenty of other people using P&S at the reception but for some reason he only harassed me and my lowly 450D.



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:10 AM
kakomu
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p.2 #5 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


crockett wrote:
Naturally, there are exceptions. But based on actual experience and research I've found that for most part equipment isn't that important.

Keep in mind that Weddings have been around since the dawn of man and photographing weddings has been around since the advent of the camera. People have been happy and disappointed with the results since photography for pay began.

When it comes to taking a picture and quality that comes from it, I always like to think about things in this light: If someone was using an FG with a mediocre prime in the early 1980s and achieved good results from color film back then, then certainly my equipment shouldn't be a hindrance 30 years later. In the end, it's ultimately the ability of the photographer and the knowledge of how to make a scene look good and what to avoid to make it look bad. The abundance of good equipment is not going to destroy the pro market. It's going to require that the pros already in the market show that they're up to snuff rather than relying on the fact that they've just been doing it for so long. With comfort comes complacence and with complacence comes lazy and mediocre results. GM, Ford and Chrysler are great examples of lazy, complacent work that resulted in problems when the market was shook up.

Harry T wrote:
I just came back from another trip to Rome, Italy and it was amazing to me to see how many novice people were willing to carry a Nikon or Canon Rebel type kit with kit lens and use it as a point and shoot. I just can't understand why people are willing to invest in the money and weight to use DSLR's as point and shoot?!

People move up from a regular Point and shoot to an entry-level DSLR for the same reason a person moves up from an entry-level DSLR to a pro DSLR. A rebel offers greater quality, faster performance and many other benefits over a point in shoot, just like a 1D offers greater quality and faster performance over a rebel.

If someone wants greater quality but isn't particularly concerned with photographic technique and is happy with the results, why should you be so offended?



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:18 AM
nathanlake
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p.2 #6 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


n0b0 wrote:
Put it this way, why steal $1,000 from 100 people when you can steal $10 from 1,000,000 people? In DSLR market, the 1D series body and the L lenses may sell for more $$ but I bet you Canon makes most of its money from the Rebel/xxD bodies and the non L lenses.



This is not even debatable. The volume of the consumer DSLs generates far more revenue for Canon than the pro line ever will.



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:25 AM
Daan B
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p.2 #7 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


Owning/using a DSLR (fancy one or not) doesn't make you a pro... Earning your living with photography does.


Jun 11, 2009 at 09:29 AM
nathanlake
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p.2 #8 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


kakomu wrote:
...When it comes to taking a picture and quality that comes from it, I always like to think about things in this light: If someone was using an FG with a mediocre prime in the early 1980s and achieved good results from color film back then, then certainly my equipment shouldn't be a hindrance 30 years later.



I don't completely disagree with this, but there is one part of the comparison that does not fit. In the 1980s, the camera body was less important as a piece of gear than it is today. Why? Because back then the image was not captured on the camera itself. It was captured on film. You could take a cheap body and use the same film the pro was using. Now, the image is captured on the sensor which is actually part of the body. There are significant sensor differences between the Rebel and the 1D-series which have great impact on the final image quality...especially when shooting in low light.



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:31 AM
oajlu
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p.2 #9 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


i see many photographers' websites have a list of their gears.


i think situation today is a lot different than 70-80s.
digital photography is much more simple and easy to access than tradition flim photography. thanks to technology and internet, users can see the result instantly and no more complicate post processing in dark room. moreover, it's easy to share their photos with friends and relatives via internet. i think that's the main reason you see there are way more DSLR amateurs or part time photographers today than old days.



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:35 AM
panos.v
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p.2 #10 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


This is why high end lenses that are taken out of demo service are destroyed and not sold as demo's
Well the shop down the road certainly didn't get the memo as they have an ex-demo 135L for sale right now.

unfortunately, Canon is going to make their new lens (100mm+) all equipped with IS
And the problem with that is...? That damn AF, ever since they put it in cameras the whole sector went downhill!

pros has to buy more expensive gears if they want to show up their expertise by showing their equipments. of course, if you won awards, that would help.
So when you go to find a photographer for your wedding, you don't ask to see the portfolio but what equipment they have and if they won any awards?

of course, the result is not as good as professional photographers, but i would say 70% of pros. now, guess what, my friend is asking me to take photos for his coming wedding on august
This is no new thing, it just catches up now with photography. The majority of people either cannot or will not pay for professional services. In this country I can walk into a shop and for a very small amount of money buy the tools to paint and hack my way around the house. Do carpenters and plasterers and painters complain? They might do, but they also know how to adapt to find the people who will actually pay. There are those who service their own car too. And some brides make their own cake, food and even wedding dress. This is only an issue if you cater for the bottom of the market.



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:44 AM
hauxon
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p.2 #11 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


Camera is just a tool. Would it be bad for musicians if every home got a really good guitar?

My father had an SLR, so did my grandfather, and my grand, grandfather had LF camera. They took fine images and their posession of gear did not pose a threat to professional photographers. Cameras (even good ones) have have been houshold items for decades. I don't see what the difference is really with digital. The only thing that has changed really is the internet/flow of information, and that part mostly hurts books (...and cd's).



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:48 AM
SmegHead
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p.2 #12 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


I a big part of the problem is not what Uncle Bob means to the established pro.. but what it will mean to the future of wedding (or other types) of photography. If you're a 10-20 year veteran of wedding photography, you have the skills and connections to avoid the bottom of the market and get clients that are willing to pay for top class shots. But everyone has to start somewhere and if the bottom of the market gets eaten up by Uncle Bob it's going to be harder and harder for NEW photographers to start in the business and become pro's that can pick and choose their clients. Yes, it's absolutely true that a really good photog will get shots so much better than Uncle Bob that people will pay. But if you're a new and only marginally better than Uncle Bob it's going to be much harder to get work and break in to the business.

I don't think we'll see the true effects of the Uncle Bob phenomina for maybe a decade or so... should be interesting to look back then and see if all the doom and gloom was justified, or if for some reason it ends up working to our advantage.. who knows. A lot of people thought that skype would kill the phone industry, digital video would kill movie rentals or email would be the final death of snail mail.... but their still going strong by adapting to change... who knows.



Jun 11, 2009 at 09:59 AM
mh2000
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p.2 #13 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


Ummm... because they get better results than with a true P&S... even tourists can see this. Rebel class DSLRs and kit lenses don't weigh that much either.

>>I just can't understand why people are willing to invest in the money and weight to use DSLR's as point and shoot?!



Jun 11, 2009 at 10:10 AM
mh2000
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p.2 #14 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


and even making your entire living off photography doesn't make you good.

Daan B wrote:
Owning/using a DSLR (fancy one or not) doesn't make you a pro... Earning your living with photography does.




Jun 11, 2009 at 10:11 AM
mh2000
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p.2 #15 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


as to "Uncle Bob," the big difference with digital is that he can now shoot 1000's of photos for nothing and of these there will be enough good ones in the mix.


Jun 11, 2009 at 10:20 AM
orangefirefish
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p.2 #16 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


hauxon wrote:
Camera is just a tool. Would it be bad for musicians if every home got a really good guitar?

My father had an SLR, so did my grandfather, and my grand, grandfather had LF camera. They took fine images and their posession of gear did not pose a threat to professional photographers. Cameras (even good ones) have have been houshold items for decades. I don't see what the difference is really with digital. The only thing that has changed really is the internet/flow of information, and that part mostly hurts books (...and cd's).


No, but then again guitars haven't exactly changed as radically as DSLRs have. Correct me if I'm wrong- but most of the advancements in guitars have been in sound quality. There's no real features that enable you play better- the improvement is in the reproduction of sound. With music, sound quality is useless unless the underlying music is played properly.

You might argue that the composition of a picture, as well as the technique behind taking the picture is analogous to the technique behind playing a guitar- but I think with the photos that people are making today, they're not necessarily trying to reproduce anything or imitate anything that a professional would make- they are merely trying to record some memories that they can reflect on later in life.

The advancements in technology all make it easier for the average joe to pick up a camera and get great results- results that most people would be more than happy with. Heck, even in Auto mode some of these things make pictures that the indiscriminant consumer would appreciate.

The trickle down of autofocus, sensor technology, user friendliness, low light performance, and automation have all made it increasingly simple to get a decent picture, at an entry level price. Though the sky's the limit to how much these things can improve at the pro end, you have to admit, you get to a point where that extra improvement doesn't really help us make incrementally better pictures. Do we really need 10+ fps to get the shot? ISO 100000?

Entry level DSLRs are crossing the threshold where the features that they are equipped with can produce satisfactory results, and with automation this becomes even easier. Even the entry level cams nowadays are more than acceptable compared to what we've had to work with just 5 years ago.

The features on the low end cameras these days are simply more than enough, I'm sure any pro could pick one up and make pro-level pics. As a result- anyone with a knowledge of how to use their entry level camera can pick one up and make great pictures with it- not necessarily "pro level" pics, but at least something they would be happy with.

In other words, entry level technology, by benefiting from yesterday's pro technology, is making HUGE strides in user friendliness and ease of use- while our pro technology, is at a saturation point. Sure we can complain about autofocus problems, or high ISO noise- but at the end of the day, those minute improvements won't help the "pros" make that many better pics.

Photography requires skill, composition, and artistic imagination and the fact that professionals can consistently, and dependably produce great results, is what gets them hired. In areas where artistic skill, or a knowledge of lighting systems, or some specialized field is not as important as just capturing the moment (such as event photography), people are willing to bet on themselves to do the job. Not to say that a pro couldn't do a dramatically better job for events, but the sad fact is that people are happy with what they have- after all, it serves their sentimental purposes well.

The money will always be in the commercial side of the business, because if you're in the business of making money, you won't skimp on your marketing materials.

With the advancement in entry level technology, as well as the underlying improvements in automated processes, everyday users are increasingly able of producing acceptably consistent results- to a point where they are willing to accept their DIY approach. As a result this definitely erodes sales opportunities as well as job opportunities for seasoned pros.



Jun 11, 2009 at 10:21 AM
SmegHead
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p.2 #17 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


A big thing that sets the pro's apart from the Bob's is post processing as well... but how far are we from a camera that will do an auto-crop to rule of thirds based on face detection, straighten, perform an auto levels/curves adjustment based on skin tone and lightest/darkest textured areas and throw a little unsharp mask on for good measure?


Jun 11, 2009 at 10:29 AM
nathanlake
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p.2 #18 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


Another thing to think about....There has been a rapid increase in the availability of cameras (not just DSLRs) over the past 10 years. This means that every kid gets a camera along with thier first phone. They are very likely to carry them at all times and use them very often. This leads to an overall improvement in the skill level of the average guy. The gap in skill level between the amateur and the pro is getting smaller every year.

Furthermore, having a camera even in their phone makes it more likely they will develop an interest in photography and that increases the number of serious amateurs. Photography skill then becomes less a differentiator between the amateur and the pro than does business sense.



Jun 11, 2009 at 10:41 AM
orangefirefish
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p.2 #19 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


nathanlake wrote:
Another thing to think about....There has been a rapid increase in the availability of cameras (not just DSLRs) over the past 10 years. This means that every kid gets a camera along with thier first phone. They are very likely to carry them at all times and use them very often. This leads to an overall improvement in the skill level of the average guy. The gap in skill level between the amateur and the pro is getting smaller every year.

Furthermore, having a camera even in their phone makes it more likely they will develop an interest in photography and
...Show more

Yeah, I agree. It's the whole "f/8 and be there" thing- nowadays, there's probably someone there with a camera phone- some of which make some seriously nice pics these days!



Jun 11, 2009 at 10:47 AM
waterman
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p.2 #20 · is popularity of dslr a bad things to pros?


Photography is art, which is subjective and personal, IMO.

The reality of life is, some that claims to be "professional" deliver so-so performance at best, and some amateurs, take really good pictures. So, when results are not guaranteed, no wonder some will choose free "uncle Bob" over costly "pros", especially if they know that "uncle Bob" takes reasonably good photos and/or have good understanding about photography in general. Expensive/professional gear, IMO, is less of an issue here.



Jun 11, 2009 at 10:57 AM
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