p.2 #1 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian Mullins wrote:
If I gave you $500 and wanted it back, and you only gave me half, don't ya think I have a right to the rest of the money? You did not perform a service and just because you lost money from other gigs does not mean you are entitled to anything in return.
Actually, I did give her a service. Holding the date is something that I just don't do for free. It's a risk factor that I take. That would be like telling an insurance agent that you want your money back because they didn't give you a service... their service is an assurance that if something bad happens, they will take care of it. My service in this case was to assure her that I would turn away business in order to guarantee her a photographer on her wedding day.
That is nothing less than a service. It likely cost me a grand to give her that service. Now she doesn't want to pay for that service.
p.2 #2 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Maybe in Canada they do, but courts in the US have, repeatedly, found that deposits OR retainers are refundable unless you provide a service, regardless of the contract. The one point that mostly comes up is "does holding a date constitute a service"? Some say yes, others say no...
p.2 #3 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
njw wrote:
This is sounding like a high risk of bad press...
Indeed. Consider it a lesson learned and you are paying her off to not bad mouth you. If you try and keep this relatively small amount of cash, she could spread word all over about what transpired and your reputation could be damaged.
Just return the money, without a signed contract you are grasping at straws to keep any portion of the cash.
p.2 #4 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian Mullins wrote:
Caveat Emptor yes, but common sense is also employed.
I've seen about 10 cases of photographers WITH signed contracts go to court for a cancellation and non-refundable retainer. 9 of them lost... keep in mind, these were contracts that clearly stated the retainer/deposit is non-refundable. I can't believe that not having a contract would STRENGTHEN a photographers legal right to keep money.
I'm all for buyer beware but, in this case, I honestly believe not only is the OP in the wrong by wanting to keep any money (without a contract), but he won;t even have a chance to open his briefcase (if it goes to court) before the judge finds for the client.
Let me say though, none of us are lawyers and I would highly recommend you call yours and not base any decision on the opinions of photographers on a forum....Show more →
It's not that I don't believe you... but I ... ok ... find it hard to believe that 10 photographers with SIGNED CONTRACTS indicating NON-REFUNDABLE RETAINER ... 9 lost. On what freggin' grounds?
Also... at least in Florida you can have an enforceable verbal agreement up to $500 ... either the courts hold "businesses" to higher standards and therefore slap any business that hasn't dotted every T and crossed every I, even if the situation is clearly one of customer trying to get out of an obligation that is clearly theirs ... or I really don't see how the results you mentioned make sense.
p.2 #5 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Good grief, some of you make me out to be a stealing vampire for wanting to keep the money that I was given in return of holding an expensive wedding date and turning away all business that came my way to ensure that the date remained open. This service of holding her date likely cost me a grand, and somehow the bride is seen as some poor little widow that is being beaten, raped, and robbed by some terrible, cold-hearted photographer who just wants money for nothing.
Putz for not staying right on the bride to return the contract? Yes! I'll accept the criticism. But thief? Owing every penny back to this poor bride because I didn't do a thing in the world for her (except maybe lock up a prime Saturday throughout much of the booking season)?
How many pro wedding photographers would hold a date without a guaranteed amount of money, or as we say, a non-refundable deposit?? Find me some, and I'll show you some folks who just aren't thinking strait.
p.2 #6 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
tcrobert wrote:
Good grief, some of you make me out to be a stealing vampire for wanting to keep the money that I was given in return of holding an expensive wedding date and turning away all business that came my way to ensure that the date remained open. This service of holding her date likely cost me a grand, and somehow the bride is seen as some poor little widow that is being beaten, raped, and robbed by some terrible, cold-hearted photographer who just wants money for nothing.
Putz for not staying right on the bride to return the contract? Yes! I'll accept the criticism. But thief? Owing every penny back to this poor bride because I didn't do a thing in the world for her (except maybe lock up a prime Saturday throughout much of the booking season)?
How many pro wedding photographers would hold a date without a guaranteed amount of money, or as we say, a non-refundable deposit?? Find me some, and I'll show you some folks who just aren't thinking strait.
No one is saying you are evil. The problem is in her eyes you are the bad guy if you don't give the cash back. If you had the contract to show her with her signiture, she could probably accept this, but without that, she won't be very accepting. Especially with her wedding cancelled, I'm sure it hurts doubly as much.
p.2 #8 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
tcrobert wrote:
This makes the most sense to me. After all, what other photographer would let her hold the date without a guaranteed deposit? Nobody with even a 10th of my experience would do such a thing I'm sure... unless they knew her personally and it was a friend-based agreement. I think, at least this is my opinion, that non-refundable deposits are industry standard for not only wedding photographers, but also most other vendors as well. It's ludicrous to expect a full refund of a deposit from any wedding photographer.
I think what I'm going to do is offer her half back like you said. She's got to be pretty desperate to try and drag me into small claims court for the $150 remaining. And if she did, like you said, I'm sure she won't get a full settlement. Even if she got an extra $100 (leaving me with $50), is that worth her time to take an entire day to drive here to see me in court and all that hassle? Unless her time is only worth $5/hr, and she's going to pour $50 into her gas tank just to get here and back.
I have such a crazy schedule, and I've shot a lot of weddings yet never ran into this problem... but I will in the future make it a high priority to get a signed contract within 2 weeks of every deposit. Sometimes they do the deposit online so it's instant, but it can take 2 weeks to get a contract across the country, signed, and returned. I think that's reasonable.
I've learned a lesson for sure. I'm surprised I got along so long without running into this.
Like others said, I think that with no contract, your just out of luck. Do you have and evidence showing that the money she paid you was to hold a date? An email? A voice recording? A polygraph test?
And about the 50 dollar gift certificates...do you really want to work with the people who cancelled on you? Don't you think that might be a tad awkward? I certainly wouldn't, especially after a fiasco like this!
Nobody with even a 10th of my experience would do such a thing that is stupid. If it's not written out for her, there's no way for her to know its -non-refundable.
Case and point: I went to sleepy's the mattress professionals yesterday looking for a bed. Found myself in a high pressure sales pitch. The woman begged us to put down a deposit. It was 100% refundable, it just locked in the prices that we were offered for 14 days.
Shut your mouth and WRITE IT OUT! (I swear I just made that up. <---- awesome )
p.2 #9 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
lisy78 wrote:
It's not that I don't believe you... but I ... ok ... find it hard to believe that 10 photographers with SIGNED CONTRACTS indicating NON-REFUNDABLE RETAINER ... 9 lost. On what freggin' grounds?
Also... at least in Florida you can have an enforceable verbal agreement up to $500 ... either the courts hold "businesses" to higher standards and therefore slap any business that hasn't dotted every T and crossed every I, even if the situation is clearly one of customer trying to get out of an obligation that is clearly theirs ... or I really don't see how the results you mentioned make sense.
The ones who lost (This is coming from threads in the DWF forum) were because the court saw nothing of value was given in return for the retainer. To us, of course, holding a date and turning business away is valuable but, in these cases I mentioned, the courts didn't see it that way.
Let me see if I can get some accurate information on this. I posted on a legal forum because i'm really curious myself.
p.2 #10 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
tcrobert wrote:
How many pro wedding photographers would hold a date without a guaranteed amount of money, or as we say, a non-refundable deposit?? Find me some, and I'll show you some folks who just aren't thinking strait.
It's just common sense folks. Ya think?
I won't hold a date without a retainer AND a contract. One without the other is meaningless to me and my clients are well aware of that. Now, if I was in your shoes and I had other bookings for that date, then it would be up to me to give an ultimatum to the original bride - contract within XXX days or I refund your retainer.
p.2 #14 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
Brian Mullins wrote:
The ones who lost (This is coming from threads in the DWF forum) were because the court saw nothing of value was given in return for the retainer. To us, of course, holding a date and turning business away is valuable but, in these cases I mentioned, the courts didn't see it that way.
Let me see if I can get some accurate information on this. I posted on a legal forum because i'm really curious myself.
Hum...
Ok, I think I'm going to change my contract.
I'm going to allow everyone who wants to book something to select one photo from my portfolio, I will print it on a 5x7, handpaint a border of the color of client's choice around it, sign it and deliver it to them.
The contract will read:
In exchange for $250, client will receive one 5x7 limited edition hand-painted, signed professional print of their choice. Purchase of the limited edition hand-painted, signed professional print will also entitle them to a free gift worth $0.01: photographer will hold their choice date avaialble for them until such a time as they may choose to cancel such a date, at which time photographer shall promptly return the $0.01 value of this gift.
As prints are artpieces carefully customized to client's specifications, they are sold as-is and cannot be returned.
Problem solved.
They didn't pay for the booking, but for the print. They get the booking free. Court should be fine with that.
p.2 #18 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
What about offering her a credit toward future services? I feel your pain and totally understand where you are coming from. But without that contract.... ouch.
So maybe say, "I recognize that you'd like your deposit back, but it's very clear on the contract that it's non-refundable. Please recognize that I held your date and turned away business. As a gesture of goodwill, I will give you a $300 credit towards future services on any type of session."
Maybe that's an option?
May 21, 2009 at 01:57 PM
prof_fate Offline • • • • • [X]
p.2 #19 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
She got a receipt? So she gave you money. Now she wants it back. Too bad. I mean, if you had a contract it would be obvious of course, but just because you don't have one does not means she gets the money back.
She bought something - a reservation. You reserved the date. Sorry, no refunds. In pennsylvania stores are not required to give refunds or take returns. So in essence, you bought it you own it.
I'd offer her it as a credit toward services in the future, or half back if you book that date perhaps.
The only reason to give the money back at this point are it's going to get her out of your hair. Its doubtful she'll rebook you, or recomend you and will no doubt trash you to her friends if she hasn't already.
Worst case she sues you at the magistrate level - work the system and you'll never have to pay - the amount is too low to make sense for her to hire an attorney so he'll talk her out of it. You might get a mean letter.
Then if she's nuts you may get firebombed at 3 am...
p.2 #20 · Deposits for wedding photography are generally non-refundable, aren't they?
jprezant wrote:
Like others said, I think that with no contract, your just out of luck. Do you have and evidence showing that the money she paid you was to hold a date? An email? A voice recording? A polygraph test?
The client is the one out of luck .. the photographer already has the money, now the onus is on the client to show good cause why it should be refunded.
