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Archive 2009 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!

  
 
Andi Dietrich
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Yakim Peled wrote:
Now, can we please stop this thread becoming an Israeli punch-bag thread? I promise to keep my big mouth shut if you promise to stop here and now.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.


As long as you give your personal opinion to this, and as long the moderator does not do his job I dont see a reason others should shut up

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/183ED1610B2BCB80C125751A002B06B2?opendocument



Mar 26, 2009 at 04:15 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Andi Dietrich wrote:
As long as you give your personal opinion to this, and as long the moderator does not do his job I dont see a reason others should shut up

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/183ED1610B2BCB80C125751A002B06B2?opendocument


1. I will not respond to specific allegations because I am not familiar with what was "really" happened. I am reading this for the first time and thus am not able to tell if it has 0% truth, 100% truth or anything in between.
2. Do you know why this operation started in the first place? For the last 8 years rockets were launched from Gaza to nearby settlements. Let's take a hypothetical example. How would USA react if Mexico would launch rockets on San-Antonio, Phoenix, Tucson, Dallas, San-Diego and Los-Angeles?
3. I do not think this is the proper place to do so. This is a photography forum, not a political one.
4. If you (or others) will not stop attacking Israel, why should I not do the same?
5. I invite you to carefully read what I've written and re-written.
6. I will be very glad if the moderator will openly write something here, expressing his personal opinion and not just lock or delete or leave it be.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 26, 2009 at 05:24 AM
Andi Dietrich
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Yakim, the link points to a report by the UN Human Rights Office, there are others too

I respect you as a person and I do not attack you nor your country. I think this is not a place for such a discussion, but now this can of worms has been opened (by you). I have trust that all people here hope for peace for Israel and his neighbors.

All I say is that your point of view has strong bias and many things you say are disputed by institutions like the United Nations.

My personal opinon and my link to this thread is that the international community should solve the problem between your country and the "Arabs" and not give up on freedom in public space. That has been our way of live and we should not give it up



Mar 26, 2009 at 05:51 AM
Mike Farren
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Everybody should see V for Vendetta and you'll get a clear picture where Britain in particular is heading.


Britain may well be leading the way but this is not solely a British disease. The US and indeed Australia have got it just as bad.

For example if government plans go ahead you folks down under will soon be unable to view any website that your government doesn't want you to. Which, apparently, would include online poker sites, certain Wikipedia entries and certain religious sites.

As for the issue on discussion here - I've signed the petition and certainly won't be voting for New Labour next time round - I've done my bit!



Mar 26, 2009 at 05:51 AM
craig_oz_land
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


I am seeing a what appears to me a lot of misuse and abuse of what would seem some rather soft laws (on paper) in NSW, Australia regarding frisk searches without warrant on questionable and highly subjective "reasonable cause."

It seems you have to be a damn good legislation expert to ensure that authorities are not over extending their powers. The other concern is police officers can still so easily fabricate version of events and successfully prosecute a person with nothing other than their own witness statements.

I am all for more video and audio surveillance in the hands of ordinary citizens so it can be used for the purposes of exposing abuse of power and other criminal corrupt behaviours by police and other law enforcement officials.



Mar 26, 2009 at 06:17 AM
fraga
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Sorry for the long post, but I am quite sad to see the way Yakim is being treated on this tread.

He is a well respected FM forum member for quite awhile and he is a very good contributor to this forum.
He is very polite and humble person. Always has been.
He is always willing to share his knowledge with whoever is willing to learn, yet he is always seeking knowledge for himself to improve as a photographer. He his a very, very humble person, and extends his gratitude to whoever shares is knowledge on this forum.
He posts here everyday and is one the major contributors to this forum, helping making it the best photo-related forum in existence today.
He is an example that should be followed by many of us. And by that I mean in a lot of different situations in our lives, not just photography-related.

Being born and living in Israel, it is quite obvious that, regardless of the fact that he stands or not by some or all of his countries policies (which he clearly does not, as he stated more than once!), he sees things just a little differently in a way that, even if he disagrees with the outcome, he might understand the reasons behind some of the actions of his fellow countryman.
Example: a hard-working, honest family man, who pays his taxes and has never committed a felony in his life, comes home from work to find his wife in bed with some one else. Since he has devoted his entire adult life to his wife and family, in a moment of what Americans call temporary insanity, he kills the wife, the man or both.
The outcome is that one or two human lives were lost because of a "simple" betrayal.
Can this act/outcome be justified?
NEVER!
Can we understand the reasons that led him to such an reflected act? I'm sure most of us can. We will not agree with the act itself, we will never say it was justified in conceivable way, but we can understand that everything that that man believed, everything he had worked for, everything that he believed in and loved was taken away from him in a split second, that he felt his whole world fall apart leading him to do something he would never be able to do or even consider to do were he in possession of all of his mental and psychological abilities.

Getting back to Yakim, while he clearly doesn't endorses his country's actions, being born and living there makes him able to understand the reasons behind some of them. That does not mean he agrees with them. Just that he understands them.
That is very clear and obvious, and is beyond me why people fail to understand this.

There are many things about my country that I dislike or even hate.
The impunity of corrupt politicians is just for starters. There are many others, like laws and courts that just protect the rights of criminals, without any care whatsoever for the victims. All that matters are the criminal's rights. Then you see people getting arrested 5 or 6 times and they are always released, waiting in freedom for a trial that will only happen in two years time, and that will give surely them a suspended sentence.
In my country's history that are also many things to be ashamed of, like the inquisition, the hunt and systematic killing of innocent women for alleged witchcraft, the use of slaves from Africa, etc.
One of the worst must have been the crusades, where killing of the infidels in the name of God was just a poor excuse in order to satisfy our thirst for power, wealth and land ownership.
Just like the invasion of Iraq in the name of fighting terrorism was a poor excuse. A very poor one in fact. Mind you that we Europeans are to blame as well, since we, as allies, backup up the Americans.

HOWEVER, if someone attacked my country, I wouldn't be all that happy about it. As most surely wouldn't any of you. Just be humble enough to put yourself on Yakim's shoes.

Let's take Germany for example.
The atrocities committed during WWII are well documented and constitute one of mankind's reasons to be ashamed of themselves... I'm sure everyone agrees.
However, attacking today someone born in Germany for what was done in the past is unjustified and constitutes an injustice, since he should not be blamed for that, unless he states that he endorses what was done during the war. I am sure almost all of Germans are not proud of what was done. Blaming them for that is not justified.

As Yakim stated: "You will be hard pressed to find any country on the globe which does not have some parts of its history which fill the hearts and minds of it's citizens with discomfort and even shame."

While I am not defending Israel in any way or shape, or it's policies (quite the contrary) I do not think it is fair to attack someone born in Israel just because of his nationality.
Yakim wrote that "just for the record, I do not think that anything Israel do is justified."

Why anybody feels the need to attack someone who just stated that is beyond me.

I will say it again:
Yakim is a well respected FM forum member for quite awhile and he is a very good contributor to this forum.
He is very polite and humble person. Always has been.
He is always willing to share his knowledge with whoever is willing to learn, yet he is always seeking knowledge for himself to improve as a photographer. He his a very, very humble person, and extends his gratitude to whoever shares is knowledge on this forum.
He posts here everyday and is one the major contributors to this forum, helping making it the best photo-related forum in existence today.
He is an example that should be followed by many of us.
And by that I mean in a lot of different situations in our lives, not just photography-related.



Mar 26, 2009 at 06:25 AM
J.D.
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Well, not quite but close. This document outlines what you can do in public in Australia in respect of photography however, it doesn't stop ill-informed members of the public from expressing outright hostility and threatening legitimate photographers on the grounds that they might be paedophiles (unlikely when you're carrying two bodies and a 500mm).

http://www.artslaw.com.au/legalinformation/StreetPhotographersRights.asp

Our state governments tried to introduce laws about "where photography could take place". This was done under twin guises of "National Security" and anti-paedophilia laws, neither of which have any bearing on the matter. Anyway things have cooled off a bit for the moment.

The law in Australia is both flexible and open to interpretation. There is no law of invasion of privacy and at the moment, it is likely to remain that way so that you can take anyone's photograph in a public place without permission. Prudence would suggest it would be a good idea to ask when practical though, especially if children are involved.

Where it all starts going pear-shaped is when governments start making exceptions. Usually this is a result of the government trying to be seen to do the "right thing". Invariably there is police pressure involved and our governments are far too cozy with the police for my liking. Against that, they seem to hate the judiciary. Don't start me on separation of powers... Invariably, if a law is passed, it's a stupid one which can easily be exploited and abused by anyone with the power and mind to do so.

Fortunately this has eased off a bit since the change of federal government a bit over a year ago. That hasn't stopped that idiot Mike Rann from trying to turn South Australia into a police state though.

I will not stop taking pictures in a public place where reason permits.



Mar 26, 2009 at 06:26 AM
J.D.
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


craig_oz_land wrote:
I am seeing a what appears to me a lot of misuse and abuse of what would seem some rather soft laws (on paper) in NSW, Australia regarding frisk searches without warrant on questionable and highly subjective "reasonable cause."

It seems you have to be a damn good legislation expert to ensure that authorities are not over extending their powers. The other concern is police officers can still so easily fabricate version of events and successfully prosecute a person with nothing other than their own witness statements.

I am all for more video and audio surveillance in the hands of ordinary citizens
...Show more

Craig, you need this:

http://4020.net/words/photorights.php#infosheet



Mar 26, 2009 at 06:27 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Andi Dietrich wrote:
All I say is that your point of view has strong bias


In part, I can't help this. After all, I live here for more than 40 years. However, as a thinking person (and as a left wing supporter...) I do protest against wrongs done here. That is exactly why I said that "I do not think that anything Israel do is justified". How many times will I have to repeat it?

Andi Dietrich wrote:
and many things you say are disputed by institutions like the United Nations.


All I can say is: Do not believe anything you read/see/hear. Strangely, my last post in the WA forum was just about that.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.




Mar 26, 2009 at 06:40 AM
nikt
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Mike, you are correct. Australia really has some of the most draconian laws of he developed nations. Most people of course will never be effected, however they do flow on. Journalists in Australia have been fighting against some of these laws.

For instance, and on topic,

"Like anyone else held under the law, a journalist would be detained without access to legal advice, you would be denied your right to silence, you would not have any capacity to protect your sources and indeed if as a journalist you refuse to answer questions while being detained you will be punishable by a 5 year jail term."
- George Williams’ National Press Club Address, 29 January 2003

See here for full story: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s880997.htm



From the newsmanual.net about media law.

"Provisions protecting freedom of speech - either constitutional or implied - were either reduced or suspended altogether so in some circumstances it is now an offence for a journalist even to report that people had been arrested under anti-terrorism laws."

Full article here: http://www.thenewsmanual.net/Resources/medialaw_in_australia_06.html




Mar 26, 2009 at 06:40 AM
fraga
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!






Craig, while the reasons behind your reasoning are perfectly understandable, I'm afraid that video and audio surveillance in the hands of ordinary citizens is, like we say here, a double-edged knife.
It cuts both ways...



Mar 26, 2009 at 06:43 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


fraga wrote:
Sorry for the long post, but I am quite sad to see the way Yakim is being treated on this tread.

He is a well respected FM forum member for quite awhile and he is a very good contributor to this forum.
He is very polite and humble person. Always has been.
He is always willing to share his knowledge with whoever is willing to learn, yet he is always seeking knowledge for himself to improve as a photographer. He his a very, very humble person, and extends his gratitude to whoever shares is knowledge on this forum.
He posts here everyday and is
...Show more

OMDG. I would say thank you but it would be the understatement of the year. However, sometimes words fail me so I will just say that: Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 26, 2009 at 06:48 AM
craig_oz_land
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


J.D. wrote:
Craig, you need this:

http://4020.net/words/photorights.php#infosheet


J.D. Why do I need this?

It helps to be specific when communicating with someone rather than non-specific and referring to articles which have many a varied content.

I assume your previous post was directed to me also but was pushed down by someone beating you to the "SendReply " button.

If you again could be specific about what you are referring to it may help me and others understand the message you are trying to convey.



Mar 26, 2009 at 07:01 AM
nikt
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


J.D, thanks for balancing some of what I mentioned. It has indeed eased off in Australia a bit, and hopefully sanity will prevail in some other areas such as in South Australia.


Mar 26, 2009 at 07:05 AM
Justin D
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


I'll also offer Yakim a bit of moral support. The attacks on him on this thread are ridiculous. He mentioned Israel in passing, simply because Israel is a warzone whose citizens live with a much greater threat of attack than those of the UK or Australia. As it happens, I don't agree with much of Israel's politics, but nothing Yakim has said on this thread justifies the manner in which he's been treated. Indeed, he handles the attacks with a great deal of tact (he probably gets a bit of practice on that particular topic, I imagine).


Mar 26, 2009 at 07:07 AM
fraga
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Yakim Peled wrote:
OMDG. I would say thank you but it would be the understatement of the year. However, sometimes words fail me so I will just say that: Thank you from the bottom of my heart.


There is no need to thank me Yakim, as what I wrote was not a meant as a favour.

I just hope that the failure of a few to see through your words and to interpret your intentions and thinking does not detract you from keeping on posting on FM daily, as it would constitute a major loss to the forum.

I always read your posts with great interest.
In fact, I should be the one thanking you for what I have learned here from you, photography-wise and more.
Your kindness and humbleness are an example to many of us to follow in most aspect of our lives.

I wish you and your family well, and may harm keep away from your home.



Mar 26, 2009 at 07:10 AM
J.D.
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


nikt wrote:
Mike, you are correct. Australia really has some of the most draconian laws of he developed nations. Most people of course will never be effected, however they do flow on. Journalists in Australia have been fighting against some of these laws.

For instance, and on topic,

"Like anyone else held under the law, a journalist would be detained without access to legal advice, you would be denied your right to silence, you would not have any capacity to protect your sources and indeed if as a journalist you refuse to answer questions while being detained you will be punishable by a
...Show more
nikt, that is true. Australia is theoretically ranked about 40th in the world for a free press, something which comes as a surprise to most people who assume we would be in the top 10. In practice, our law is open to interpretation to a wide degree and much of the legislative capacity is largely unused. In practice, while we'd love to see a lot of these laws changed, it's not quite as bad as it seems.

The introduction of new "Counter Terrorism" legislation has basically made a series of exception to the law and with the suspension of habeas corpus for such offences, we cannot claim to be an enlightened society until it either expires or is repealed.

However, this is not likely to affect you as a photographer unless you go around photographing things which are sensitive. These are laws which I bump up against every day of my working life and there are often ways to get around them since they can be contradictory in some areas. It should also be noted that journalists in Australia are basically exempt from privacy law. That means I can do things in my job which I can't do in my hobby.

None of this excuses governments of any stripe for introducing stupid laws to protect themselves or their agencies, such as the police.

http://blogs.smh.com.au/photographers/archives/2007/02/photography_is_not_a_crime.html



Mar 26, 2009 at 07:12 AM
J.D.
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


craig_oz_land wrote:
J.D. Why do I need this?

It helps to be specific when communicating with someone rather than non-specific and referring to articles which have many a varied content.

I assume your previous post was directed to me also but was pushed down by someone beating you to the "SendReply " button.

If you again could be specific about what you are referring to it may help me and others understand the message you are trying to convey.


Sorry, did you not see the.pdf?

http://4020.net/words/rightssummary/nswphotorights.pdf

Hope this helps. It's really just a case of knowing your rights.



Mar 26, 2009 at 07:17 AM
Andi Dietrich
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


Folks! NOBODY attacked Yakim, this is a simple, complicated disagreement between a couple of members. I am sorry if anybody would understand this that way and I must say that I feel a bit offended by the people who implie that I attacked Yakim personally.

Just think. This board would be completely uninteresting and boring if we would agree on a political issue like this.



PS. I just PMed him because I think this has already gone too far

Edited on Mar 26, 2009 at 07:45 AM · View previous versions



Mar 26, 2009 at 07:24 AM
nikt
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · New 'anti-photography' laws. Sad!


J.D. wrote:
http://blogs.smh.com.au/photographers/archives/2007/02/photography_is_not_a_crime.html


That's a great read. I've bookmarked it.



Mar 26, 2009 at 07:34 AM
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