Tanner_J wrote:
It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.
"Thanks Karl That Science reporter called me as I recall about three in the afternoon and demanding I get right with it as they were promised from the DEC full cooperation and I in all the years doing volunteer work for then would never let them down. I have donated more photos of eagles doing all that eagles do to them for education and I got gas money from them for my work and you know I would do it anyway even with out gas money. I am doing it now with the Mass Audubon and the osprey and I donate all photos for their use in their publications and I get what I deserve and that's satisfaction of telling someone that needs to know with a photo."
Sounds like they told the NYTimes you would do whatever they needed.
I may do volunteer work, but that doesn't mean I know an Eagle from a Raven (hyperbole, I could tell the difference) because I don't do wildlife, nor care to. I stumbled into this thread from it being on the front page and I offered my input. It's obviously not something you want to hear and I'm getting bashed for it.
The fact is, you made a mistake from my viewpoint. You should have gotten something faxed to you on paper (they would have done it if they really wanted your photos) and sure they should pay you anyway. Keyword being should, doesn't mean they will unless you take the appropriate actions.
Start sending invoices in your name to the New York Times. Call until you can talk to someone on the phone. EMAILS DO NOT WORK! That's the problem with this new age, go for the confrontation. People can think and make up replies while sitting at a computer, they can't on the phone. Or they can say "We didn't reply because we never got it." If you want you money, then take a mature, serious way of handling it. Print out the emails you have sent and put them in a package and ship it off to them with a new letter from a lawyer! Get a return receipt and call them up and talk to whoever received it!...Show more →
Ohhhh! Just stop .
You don't do work and tell someone else to pay someone else. In the real world it just doesn't work like that.
In the real world I must live in a different world as well. There is no problem with bartering. Lou, agreed to provide photos in exchange for a donation to the raptor center. I've done this type of bartering and I've never had a problem. Oh! all through verbal agreements and a shake
Yes! Lou made a mistake and is merely sharing his experience with us to give us the heads up.
lbuscher wrote:
PierreB, thanks and it is a good though just one I feel I should not have to do. I have been through this before with a Magazine and I finally did get paid after telling them I was going to small claims court.
Lou
I had a situation once where a reporter asked me for 10 shots for an article. However, I was leaving for Amsterdam the following morning so they had to be sent that night with just an understanding that we would sort things out when I got back. When I returned, the reporter had been fired so I just went ahead and sent the invoice. I got paid without any problem but it could so easily have gone bad.
Tanner_J wrote:
It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.
"Thanks Karl That Science reporter called me as I recall about three in the afternoon and demanding I get right with it as they were promised from the DEC full cooperation and I in all the years doing volunteer work for then would never let them down. I have donated more photos of eagles doing all that eagles do to them for education and I got gas money from them for my work and you know I would do it anyway even with out gas money. I am doing it now with the Mass Audubon and the osprey and I donate all photos for their use in their publications and I get what I deserve and that's satisfaction of telling someone that needs to know with a photo."
Sounds like they told the NYTimes you would do whatever they needed.
I may do volunteer work, but that doesn't mean I know an Eagle from a Raven (hyperbole, I could tell the difference) because I don't do wildlife, nor care to. I stumbled into this thread from it being on the front page and I offered my input. It's obviously not something you want to hear and I'm getting bashed for it.
The fact is, you made a mistake from my viewpoint. You should have gotten something faxed to you on paper (they would have done it if they really wanted your photos) and sure they should pay you anyway. Keyword being should, doesn't mean they will unless you take the appropriate actions.
You don't do work and tell someone else to pay someone else. In the real world it just doesn't work like that. Start sending invoices in your name to the New York Times. Call until you can talk to someone on the phone. EMAILS DO NOT WORK! That's the problem with this new age, go for the confrontation. People can think and make up replies while sitting at a computer, they can't on the phone. Or they can say "We didn't reply because we never got it." If you want you money, then take a mature, serious way of handling it. Print out the emails you have sent and put them in a package and ship it off to them with a new letter from a lawyer! Get a return receipt and call them up and talk to whoever received it!...Show more →
Had a heads up when I got the email from the endangered species unit, just did not know when a call would come. I do not see that being a contradiction of what I said to Karl.
When you say you are not into wildlife and do not care to be so explains everything to me about your feeling the way you do. Everything you say I should have done is water under the bridge and in my many years of wildlife and nature events with New York State and other official Departments of the State my word for a photo was as good as gold unless I died. I see this as the difference between you and I.
I wish you good luck in what ever it is you photograph and having the time to dictate your terms to some one that wants to use your work. I could never be like you with what I do with mine.
Lou
Ed Robertson wrote:
Sorry it happened to you . I did some shots of Tug Boats for this Magazine and after he published them he said my shots were not good enough and I never got a Nickel. Then a few months later I picked up a copy and he was using one of my shots Commercially. At the time I was on the war path but took the high road and learn't a good lesson and found out some people are not as honest as me. Ed
Hi Ed thanks for your story and I wish I had read it but you know what it most likely wouldn’t have made any difference at that time. So like you a lesson learned.
Now as for your subject (Tug Boats) I’ll PM you back
Lou
PierreB wrote:
I had a situation once where a reporter asked me for 10 shots for an article. However, I was leaving for Amsterdam the following morning so they had to be sent that night with just an understanding that we would sort things out when I got back. When I returned, the reporter had been fired so I just went ahead and sent the invoice. I got paid without any problem but it could so easily have gone bad.
Seems like a good opinon from several and worth doing so I will give that a try.
Thanks
Lou
trenchmonkey wrote:
Screw 'em Lou...put me down for a $20 donation. (PM your PP addy) if 4 of your N&W brothers/sisters chip in, you're golden!
Hot Damn Monk I now know for sure there is some kind of bind with people involved in wildlife and nature. Really nice of you and I will make sure your voice is heard at the Delaware Valley Raptor Center. I owe them a lot as they always gave me a key and the run of the place when ever I was there so I will take care of the hundred bucks. That really is nice of you. Here take a stroll http://www.dvrconline.org/
Lou
brucemuir wrote:
Was there ANYTHING in writing...like a contract?
Even though you were helping out a cause near and dear to you (and I commend you for that) I surely wouldn't have turned over any images without the agreement in writing/email.
Good luck.
My word is my contract. If you came to the Cape to do Ospreys, or sea scapes and needed a place and some locations I would give you both.
Lou
Tanner_J wrote:
It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself…………..
………….Get a return receipt and call them up and talk to whoever received it!
Lou wrote:
Had a heads up when I got the email from the endangered species unit, just did not know when a call would come. I do not see that being a contradiction of what I said to Karl. When you say you are not into wildlife and do not care to be so explains everything to me about your feeling the way you do. Everything you say I should have done is water under the bridge and in my many years of wildlife and nature events with New York State and other official Departments of the State my word for a photo was as good as gold unless I died. I see this as the difference between you and I. I wish you good luck in what ever it is you photograph and having the time to dictate your terms to some one that wants to use your work. I could never be like you with what I do with mine.
Lou
Well said Lou. I only know you from your work and postings here at FM, but it's obvious you live, and give, from the heart. It's a sad commentary on our times, and certain people, when every agreement has to be in writing or it's worthless. I see it all the time in my work, people make agreements with you, then "don't recall" or out and out lie about it.
Thanks for your good work, and good luck with making them do the honorable thing.
Hot Damn Monk I now know for sure there is some kind of bind with people involved in wildlife and nature. Really nice of you and I will make sure your voice is heard at the Delaware Valley Raptor Center. I owe them a lot as they always gave me a key and the run of the place when ever I was there so I will take care of the hundred bucks. That really is nice of you. Here take a stroll http://www.dvrconline.org/
Lou
Hot Damn Monk I now know for sure there is some kind of bind with people involved in wildlife and nature. Really nice of you and I will make sure your voice is heard at the Delaware Valley Raptor Center. I owe them a lot as they always gave me a key and the run of the place when ever I was there so I will take care of the hundred bucks. That really is nice of you. Here take a stroll http://www.dvrconline.org/
Lou
Check's in the mail, Lou I love to say that....
That was really great of you Monk and it will be appreciated I assure you and I will send this thread to Stephanie in a few minuets. I plan on paying the money and doing a bill to the Accounting Dept of the NYTimes as many suggested.
Lou
Newspapers are tanking all over the place. They are swimming in debt, thanks largely to their own foolishness. They don't have the money to pay their staff, let alone freelancers.
I'm going to say some things that might not be very popular but will try to say them without judgement as not to anger anyone here because unlike Tanner, I do shoot wildlife and do understand where you're coming from, however....
First of all it's $100. A pro would never charge that little amount to a major newspaper for ANYTHING. I'm not saying you don't do top notch work, I'm just saying you're not charging for top notch work which puts you in the chump category with them right off the bat. I'm not saying you're a chump, I'm just looking at it from the point of view of a jaded cash poor industry. Second of all, it's $100, they know you're not going to small claims court for it and even if you did, it's $100. Third of all, the newspaper industry is in the tank, more than likely whoever you are contacting has a million people screaming down his neck every day and is trying to do everything he can not to lose his job. Your check is not a priority. I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I'm just trying to be realistic. Fourth, from all I can gather, you didn't invoice them which puts you solidly in the chump amateur category once again in their eyes. It ain't right, but it's the way it is, and you also put an extra step to getting paid which they probably couldn't give a crap about. and fifthly, it's $100, I know you're acting on principle here and that's noble, but is it really worth all this energy?? Just my two cents.
As has been said before, you do this from the heart and not because you want to get compensated for it. That is evident in your postings as well as where you wanted the compensation to go. I admire you for that and wish you only the best. The world needs more people like you and it's a shame you got taken advantage of.
Mick Haensler wrote:
I'm going to say some things that might not be very popular but will try to say them without judgement as not to anger anyone here because unlike Tanner, I do shoot wildlife and do understand where you're coming from, however....
First of all it's $100. A pro would never charge that little amount to a major newspaper for ANYTHING. I'm not saying you don't do top notch work, I'm just saying you're not charging for top notch work which puts you in the chump category with them right off the bat. I'm not saying you're a chump, I'm just looking at it from the point of view of a jaded cash poor industry. Second of all, it's $100, they know you're not going to small claims court for it and even if you did, it's $100. Third of all, the newspaper industry is in the tank, more than likely whoever you are contacting has a million people screaming down his neck every day and is trying to do everything he can not to lose his job. Your check is not a priority. I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I'm just trying to be realistic. Fourth, from all I can gather, you didn't invoice them which puts you solidly in the chump amateur category once again in their eyes. It ain't right, but it's the way it is, and you also put an extra step to getting paid which they probably couldn't give a crap about. and fifthly, it's $100, I know you're acting on principle here and that's noble, but is it really worth all this energy?? Just my two cents.
As has been said before, you do this from the heart and not because you want to get compensated for it. That is evident in your postings as well as where you wanted the compensation to go. I admire you for that and wish you only the best. The world needs more people like you and it's a shame you got taken advantage of.
...Show more →
God Mick it seems I just can't get myself across to you folks that sell photos I would think for a living. I don't. I am 78 years of age and been doing wildlife photography for 59 years and I do not do it for the money I do it for the pleasure of sharing my luck for others to learn from. You see most of the work I did was for the State of New York and helping restore the eagle there, not to sell the photos. I'm not a pro as I am a retired Telephone man that loves doing wildlife photography.I did not ask for the money they offered it and I ask if they would send it where it could do the most good as I don't need it.If the reporter said nothing it would not have made any difference to me. If getting one hundred dollars for a few photos makes me a chump than so be it but I am a happy one when I see them in a slide presentation at a public meeting or in a State office on the wall. Yesterday I spent the entire day driving around some of the osprey nests I monitor just to see if any have arrived yet as I am hopeful of getting to the local newspapers and the Audubon of their arrival. Just try being with a rehab center when they do a show for a bunch of school kids and I get to photograph the faces on those kids when a golden eagle with seven foot wings is displayed to them. A feeling no money can buy. I hope you understand that. Thanks for kicking in.
Lou
Lou, I understand precisely why you do what you do, I thought I had made that clear. Apparently not. The point of my reply was not to show you in a bad light in any way shape or form but to give a perspective from the other side and shed some light on a possible scenario that might explain things a little better. I don't think you are a chump and said so clearly. I think you are a noble person and said so clearly. My hope was to put a little reality in the conversation that would perhaps help you let this go and have some peace about the situation. I failed to do that. My apologies.
Tanner_J wrote:
The fact is, you made a mistake from my viewpoint. You should have gotten something faxed to you on paper (they would have done it if they really wanted your photos) and sure they should pay you anyway. Keyword being should, doesn't mean they will unless you take the appropriate actions.
You don't do work and tell someone else to pay someone else. In the real world it just doesn't work like that. Start sending invoices in your name to the New York Times. Call until you can talk to someone on the phone. EMAILS DO NOT WORK! That's the problem with this new age, go for the confrontation. People can think and make up replies while sitting at a computer, they can't on the phone. Or they can say "We didn't reply because we never got it." If you want you money, then take a mature, serious way of handling it. Print out the emails you have sent and put them in a package and ship it off to them with a new letter from a lawyer! Get a return receipt and call them up and talk to whoever received it!...Show more →
Sorry, Tanner, I disagree with you. If Lou made a mistake, it was in expecting what was promised. In my lifettime, I have observed a shift in the personalilty of our society. Much too often it attempts to shift the blame in the wrong direction. In my way of thinking wrong is still wrong, and right is still right. There is a foundamental moral issue that is being ignored here. By the way, I doubt that any attorney would make much of an effort considering the amount. For a nineteen year old photojournalism student, you sure have a lot of answers(If that info is not correct, you may want to consider updating your profile.). I am just not confident they are the right one's.
Lou, I am confident from reading many of your previous posts, that this was never about the $100, but rather the principal involved. From my perspective, these people have no scruples. Whether the agreement was verbal or written, they apparently wish not to honor it. You are certainly right to be upset about this. It is indeed very sad that this happens all too often. I guess that the "corporate greed" that seems to be dominating the headlines today of the New York Times is part of their own corporate mentality.Seems somewhat hypocritical, doesn't it?
Anyways, hope it all works out. I know a lot of folks appreciate your efforts.
Mick Haensler wrote:
Lou, I understand precisely why you do what you do, I thought I had made that clear. Apparently not. The point of my reply was not to show you in a bad light in any way shape or form but to give a perspective from the other side and shed some light on a possible scenario that might explain things a little better. I don't think you are a chump and said so clearly. I think you are a noble person and said so clearly. My hope was to put a little reality in the conversation that would perhaps help you let this go and have some peace about the situation. I failed to do that. My apologies....Show more →
Thanks Mick and no apologies are necessary. By this time I am sure I am reading some things in a wrong light. I just posted this for info so it won't happen to someone else.
However some good did come out of this for me as there are a lot of smart people on this forum and today I did what some said I should do and I sent a bill to their Accounts Payable department after about 4 phone calls to find out where it is.There web is useless
for that. again thanks for the kick in.
Lou
lbuscher wrote:
Thanks Mick and no apologies are necessary. By this time I am sure I am reading some things in a wrong light. I just posted this for info so it won't happen to someone else.
However some good did come out of this for me as there are a lot of smart people on this forum and today I did what some said I should do and I sent a bill to their Accounts Payable department after about 4 phone calls to find out where it is.There web is useless
for that. again thanks for the kick in.
Lou
No worries mate. I'm thankful for you. I've read some of your previous posts and you seem like a pretty selfless guy and have a passion for the birds as well as photography. You've spread some beauty around and I hope you feel good about that. And I hope this situation doesn't jade you.
. 
I must live in a different world as well. There is no problem with bartering. Lou, agreed to provide photos in exchange for a donation to the raptor center. I've done this type of bartering and I've never had a problem. Oh! all through verbal agreements and a shake 
I'll follow your lead...Sign me up Lou 
