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Archive 2009 · BW Films

mh2000
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p.2 #1 · BW Films

I do like the clarity you get from Rodinal... but I love that it lasts *forever*

My bottle was first opened 12 years ago and still works perfectly... try that with anything else!

Feb 28, 2009 at 09:37 PM

mawz
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p.2 #2 · BW Films

mh2000 wrote:
I never understood why Tmax films have always been the most controversial b&w emulsions ever... back when I bought my first roll it was a brand new film that I didn't know anything about, didn't even know what tabular grain was... threw the roll in D76 and was really wowed! by it... much better grain and tonality than I ever got out of Plus-X... but whenever I start raving about it over the years at least half the people I talk to tell me about how horrible it is for them... the other half seems to feel like I do...Show more →

TMax is very picky about exposure and development, exhausts fixer very quickly and has an extremely linear tonal response. That's pretty much a prescription on how to annoy the average B&W shooter. For the most part, when I find somebody who likes TMax, they tend to be either Zonies of some sort, small grain uber alles types or folks who manipulate heavily at the printing stage.

I've never gotten decent results out of TMX or TMY, even the new stuff. But a lot of that is that TMX and TMY are designed for different applications. If you want a classic B&W look, HP5 or Tri-X are far better choices (especially if you like the feel grain adds to an image, which I do). TMX and TMY are too close to digital in look for me (because of the linear response curve), if I want that look I'll just shoot digital instead.

Mar 01, 2009 at 09:00 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #3 · BW Films

mawz wrote:
TMax is very picky about exposure and development, exhausts fixer very quickly and has an extremely linear tonal response. That's pretty much a prescription on how to annoy the average B&W shooter. For the most part, when I find somebody who likes TMax, they tend to be either Zonies of some sort, small grain uber alles types or folks who manipulate heavily at the printing stage.

I agree completely. I usually shoot Tmax 400 and end up manipulating the hell out of it, both in processing and print. Whenever I have shot it 'straight', I find it must be exposed as critically as shooting chrome (except, of course, you expose for the shadows, process for the highlights). All the below shot with Tmax 400. It is a film I guess I love to hate but strangely, I have used it often.

http://www.gibranstudio.com/BLISS.jpg
http://www.gibranstudio.com/LAMA1.jpg
http://www.gibranstudio.com/art.jpg

Mar 01, 2009 at 09:52 AM

mh2000
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p.2 #4 · BW Films

hmmm... about being picky about exposure, the Tmax is the only silver based film that the manufacturer states that you can take a one stop push with no change in developing... so I find it about the most forgiving of all the silver based films. I don't find it exhausts fixer, but often people think that all the pink must come out during fixing when in reality it clears out during washing.

Mar 01, 2009 at 05:44 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #5 · BW Films

mh2000 wrote:
hmmm... about being picky about exposure, the Tmax is the only silver based film that the manufacturer states that you can take a one stop push with no change in developing... so I find it about the most forgiving of all the silver based films. I don't find it exhausts fixer, but often people think that all the pink must come out during fixing when in reality it clears out during washing.

It used to take at least twice as long to fix as conventional film based on the 'manufacturers suggestions'. To nail the film, exposure is extremely critical, much more so than conventional films such as Tri-X. 'Manufacturer suggestions', not just Kodak's by the way, regarding true B&W film speed and processing times are, shall we say, about as reliable as used Yugo's. Extremely rough starting points at best.

Mar 01, 2009 at 06:02 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #6 · BW Films

"If you have film that is "pink' upon drying re-fix in a rapid fix formula and re-wash. Do not overuse your fixer ... T-MAX films will exhaust fixer more rapidly than conventional films." from John Sexton, a more noted and reliable source than any of us probably, from here:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/sexton-tmax.html

Mar 01, 2009 at 06:34 PM

mawz
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p.2 #7 · BW Films

mh2000 wrote:
hmmm... about being picky about exposure, the Tmax is the only silver based film that the manufacturer states that you can take a one stop push with no change in developing... so I find it about the most forgiving of all the silver based films. I don't find it exhausts fixer, but often people think that all the pink must come out during fixing when in reality it clears out during washing.

That's not correct. Plus-X and Tri-X in TMax Developer both have identical times listed for nominal ISO and a 1 stop push according to Kodak's published times (Just checked my bottle of TMax Dev).

Mar 01, 2009 at 08:34 PM

mh2000
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p.2 #8 · BW Films

Well... about the pink, it has nothing to do with fixing, it is the antihalation dye and that doesn't require fixing, just washing. I had read similar misinformation and as a result over fixed my Tmax negatives for quite a few years until I read others saying that you just have to wash it longer... and guess what, it works! Yes, fixing and rewashing also works, but simple water takes the pink out... try it... doesn't matter what anyone tells you, it's an easy experiment. Let your film sit in some still distilled water and all the pink just flows out and sits on the bottom.

About Tmax using up fixer, I can't say I've done anything scientific, but I don't notice it going any faster with Tmax than other emulsions... so if it does, I think it's a minor thing.

Ok, I'm wrong about the free one stop push I guess... I have never used Tmax developer... but with Tmax films, my memory was that Kodak gives this recommendation for nearly *all* developers, not just Tmax, which they certainly don't do with TX... that said, in practice, I take that one stop push whenever I need it and have no problems, I can't say that with TX (mostly, developed in D-76).

Yeah, recommended times etc. are just a starting point, but really, I haven't had to deviate far from them...

but yeah, best to stick to what is working for you... if my first roll of Tmax hadn't worked out so perfectly maybe I would have stuck to other films, but it really works our well for me...

For a while Delta was significantly cheaper than Tmax so I used that, also nice films.

Honestly, I can't think of a b&w film I didn't like. I thought APX was kind of dense and grainy for 35mm, but liked it in MF and LF, HP5+ wasn't as nice as Tri-X IMO... but really I think you could get anything to work well with some experience and adjustment... even Efke can be nice... there really are not bad b&w films!

...well, anyway, not trying to argue, just have to stick up for Tmax films since I have never had a problem with even one roll of it in the past 20+ years... damn, and many of us still think of it as a "new" technology film!

Mar 02, 2009 at 01:08 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #9 · BW Films

Not trying to argue either and you are right about the magenta/pink stain coming out in the wash. Tmax does take longer to fix. Using it since 1986 myself alongside APX 100 120 (sigh).

Mar 02, 2009 at 07:19 AM

VickiB
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p.2 #10 · BW Films

I like diafine with most films but I like a look that a lot of purist B&W shooters, the ones that think it is a religion to not have blocked shadows, seem to not care for. All the older films give you more grain - no matter what you do, compared to Films like Tmax. The new emulsion is awesome, if you like that kind of thing. It has good edge acuity with low grain, something I've never (in thirty+ years developing my own) been able to find in the same ratio. I tends to be more contrasty - which I agree is a more "digital" look - but rather unique I think so while I tend to like films like HP4 and Plus-X; it is very nice to have something completely different in the bag too.
I also find that the new Tmax seems to give much better results at 800 than anything else - again, if the holy grail is a grain free, high contrast image that "pops". But I have to say, that while I personally admire what it can do, the old emulsions are my esthetic favorites.
It's not some kind of "better numbers" for me, nor a competition against digital. No, good black and white has attributes that one should embrace on its own terms. So many choices. Smooth tonalities ... or edge acuity. I don't want both ends done in a wishi-washi middle of the road compromise with no signature. I want the extremes. Pick the film for the look and the scene and then develop it to accentuate that even more. Thats the fun of film. The passion.
Hey I've even seen worthy results from rodinal (50-1) and pushed tri-x.
The only problem with film is that I won't live long enough to go through all the wonderful possibilities!

Mar 02, 2009 at 10:03 AM

ulrikft
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p.2 #11 · BW Films

Just wanted to chime in and say that for us newbie darkroomers, this is an interesting debate

I'm on an everlasting search for a very punchy, contrasty but still tonal film :P

Mar 02, 2009 at 10:49 AM

mawz
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p.2 #12 · BW Films

ulrikft wrote:
Just wanted to chime in and say that for us newbie darkroomers, this is an interesting debate

I'm on an everlasting search for a very punchy, contrasty but still tonal film :P

PanF+ in Rodinal 1:50 ;-)

Mar 02, 2009 at 12:41 PM

ulrikft
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p.2 #13 · BW Films

I'll try to get my hands on some of that

thanks for the tip!

Mar 02, 2009 at 01:03 PM

Pavel
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p.2 #14 · BW Films

I am very impressed by the new Tmax 400. I looks in many ways better than most 100 films and seems to be quite a bit more tolerant than many seem to say and as far as a contrasty and "punchy" film ... there is actually nothing better than Tmax 320 (TPX) and chrome reversal processing. ( http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/txp.html )

The Tmax 400 is also quite punchy ... done the old fashioned way, and in my mind a far better film to push to 800 than any other.

Like Vicki ... I too tend to like one extreme or another. Either smooth tones (120 is better for that - and illford HP4 in particular) or something like Tri-x in D76 ... or rodinal if you like sharp ... with grain.

Mar 02, 2009 at 01:35 PM

mawz
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p.2 #15 · BW Films

Pavel wrote:
I am very impressed by the new Tmax 400. I looks in many ways better than most 100 films and seems to be quite a bit more tolerant than many seem to say and as far as a contrasty and "punchy" film ... there is actually nothing better than Tmax 320 (TPX) and chrome reversal processing. ( http://www.dr5.com/blackandwhiteslide/txp.html )

That's actually Tri-X 320 (TXP), not TMax. Wonderful stuff, but completely unrelated to the TMax films.

Mar 02, 2009 at 01:36 PM

Pavel
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p.2 #16 · BW Films

And what a refreshing change ... talking about film and all the infinite developing permutations rather than the same ol'. Which lens to get .... which camera has NOISE!

It would be so great to have a film forum. We can call it .... oldies and goodies - and infinite possibilities.

Mar 02, 2009 at 01:44 PM

Pavel
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p.2 #17 · BW Films

Yes ... you are absolutely right mawz ... fabulous stuff. Hey ... film is kind of still fabulous ... all of it ... and in of itself.

Mar 02, 2009 at 01:45 PM

Daniel Buck
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p.2 #18 · BW Films

if anyone's looking for some interesting film to try, try the Adox Ortho 25, it's kind of cool

I've been looking for a slower film, and stumbled up on it, I like it! Really smooth and fine grain, even in Rodinal. And I like the look that isn't sensitive to red, gives a different look

Mar 02, 2009 at 02:05 PM

mrladewig
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p.2 #19 · BW Films

Someone recommended that you try sticking with one film until you really get to know it, but I don't agree. If that were the case, I'd be using Velvita like every other color landscaper, but I like several different color films. I do settle on a few favorites though. I suppose if I were primarily shooting B&W I'd also have a few favorites for different types of scenes. There can be really significant difference between various films and developers. Anyways, I'd consider trying a B&W film from each major category to see what works for you. I would recommend a t-grain film, a moderate speed traditional film, a high speed film and possibly an ortho film like the Adox Daniel recommended.

Mar 02, 2009 at 03:19 PM

Daniel Buck
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p.2 #20 · BW Films

mrladewig wrote:
Someone recommended that you try sticking with one film until you really get to know it, but I don't agree. If that were the case, I'd be using Velvita like every other color landscaper, but I like several different color films.

it's probably different if you aren't developing & printing the film yourself. The idea about sticking with one film/developer for B&W (and color I suppose, if you are developing that yourself) is that when you change a film, you also (most likely) need to change at least the timing/agitation of your developer. So if you are constantly changing your film, developer, and developing times, you'll probably never really 'nail' your developing process and really get the most from your combo, and may not even get predictable results.

This is probably more critical if you are also doing wet prints, instead of scanning. Each to their own though!

Mar 02, 2009 at 03:24 PM

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