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Archive 2008 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?

  
 
PasiM
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p.3 #1 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Well, Will... You can only wonder how the other photographers get great pictures with the same equipment.

They have learned to use them right.



Dec 29, 2008 at 04:00 AM
Emile Gregoire
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p.3 #2 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


In Will's defence, and I've stated it before, you will have images taken with flash that are different in exposure from one frame to the next. I think using Evaluative has a lot to do with it as it doesn't simply average the scene but tries to interpret what it sees out of a database of different situations and it doesn't always make the right assumptions. That it does most of the time is a miracle as it is

That said: Will, get out of the P mode!!! Put your camera in M, between 1/60 and 1/100th seconds, f/2.8 if need be (f/5.6 to get more than one person in focus) and don't be afraid to use ISO 1600 - just make sure you're not overexposing already without the flash. Then try again. It's still in automatic in the way that it directs the flash to provide for additional lighting needed to make a balanced exposure. Direct flash is butt-ugly indeed, but when used for fill this way it might just be passable. I prefer to bounce myself as you get much softer lighting with soft shadows on the ground instead of harsh ones on the wall.

HTH



Dec 29, 2008 at 05:14 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.3 #3 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


OP you say you are the 2nd shooter? Were the main shooters any better than yours? if so what learn from the main shooter. Its in his/her interest to help you out as ultimatly they are selling your images and if non of your images are good enough to use whats the point in you being there.


Dec 29, 2008 at 05:15 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #4 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Will, I am an experienced wedding shooter, and you are absolutely right. I use Canon, but the best way round its awful flash system is to take a Nikon setup too, even if you use it for this shot only. Canon's evaluative flash system is too unpredictable for a serious wedding photographer to rely upon. I use old-fashioned thyristor type auto-flash with my Canons, and manual aperture, and I find it much more reliable, even though it doesn't zoom at all. If you adapt an old-fashioned lens with an aperture control, then it's even easier to get exposure right, as compensating on the fly is simply a question of turning the aperture ring, which is mechanical and so always works, and always turns in the right direction no matter what mode you are in. That's progress. Canon's pro flash units are a total waste of money in my opinion. You will get a better result from the pop-up flash on a 450D in green square mode.

If you want to shoot portrait orientation, then a flash whose bulb is very close to the lens axis will cast less shadow. Red eye is easily fixable in post, if it ever occurs.

If you want to mix in more ambient in auto on these flashes, you can prize off the Olympus logo, which has the effect of widening and enlarging the thyristor window, which is in the middle of the 'O' of Olympus.



Dec 29, 2008 at 06:01 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #5 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Here are two units that will allow you to do a much better job:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Olympus-T20-T-20-Flash-with-case_W0QQitemZ400020005316QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Camera_Flashes?hash=item400020005316&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

http://cgi.ebay.com/Olympus-T32-Factory-Dedicated-Flash-for-OM-Cameras_W0QQitemZ350126454195QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Camera_Flashes?hash=item350126454195&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50




Dec 29, 2008 at 06:04 AM
flash
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p.3 #6 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Will,

Currently, compared to every other Canon body I own and use, (6 others in total) my new 5D2 is exposing wedding dresses consistantly about a full stop than any other body I own. Like you I am surprised and dissapointed by the performance of the flash metering on this new body. I am required to rethink how I use flash at wedding because of this. You'll need the flash exposure button a lot.

I have over a thousand weddings experience and so far this is the most inconsistant performance I've had from a new body.

Gordon



Dec 29, 2008 at 06:10 AM
brainiac
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p.3 #7 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


...and I second the comments that manually setting flash ouput/aperture is the best way. Learn the correct settings for 10 yards, 5 yards, and 2 yards, set your aperture or iso accordingly, and no auto-system can come close. This is the method that many compacts use to determine flash output, and some of them are very very reliable. TTL flash is a disaster and should be uninvented. It is always subject to the overall luminance of the scene, and is therefore hardly ever correct. Even Nikon's.


Dec 29, 2008 at 06:10 AM
WestFalcon
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p.3 #8 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Those of you recommending a bounce flash in a processional are asking for disaster. I love bounce but you are sometimes talking about a 40-60 foot ceiling in a typical church and it simply does not work. Walls won't work in a church either since they too are too far away. Manual flash works and can be harsh and ugly but it doesn't have to be if set properly. I think available light in most churches is also asking for trouble. After 30 years of wedding photography, I've tried about everything and manual flash is still my method.

Bouncing off of a card on the flash may work but that doesn't soften very much since it's still a very small point light source.



Dec 29, 2008 at 07:23 AM
Alan321
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p.3 #9 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


I sympathise with Will's frustration at what a "clever" flash system and camera cannot do but there have been some very informative posts in this thread. My thanks and appreciation to all of the contributors.

Will, one reason I do not use P mode and do use M mode for flash work is that I usually need control of shutter speed and aperture and the auto modes generally botch one or both with flash. e.g. it can use too slow a shutter speed or too large an aperture because there is inadequate background light. One gives motion blur or camera blur on any bright highlights in the background and the other can reduce DOF too much. M lets me control both. All I need do is avoid overexposure in the ambient light and then let flash provide the extra light.

A point for you to consider about your 5D2 is the extent to which it alters flash metering according to the chosen AF sensor. Some camera/mode combinations do this while others don't. I'm not familiar with the 5D2. E-TTL did it much more than E-TTL II.

It would also pay to determine the size, shape and location in the frame of the camera metering zones. The 1Ds2 has 21 I think, The 1Ds3 has 63, The Nikons have 1005 (!). What looks like a highlight to us may be averaged out quite a bit to the metering system with so few metering zones to work with.

As for WB, Canon cameras have never been great in the reddish tungsten lighting. Canon's Chuck Westfall recommends that you use the tungsten WB mode rather than AWB, or else use custom WB. AWB is more accurate in the whiter and bluer lighting than it is in reddish lighting.

- Alan



Dec 29, 2008 at 07:42 AM
Emile Gregoire
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p.3 #10 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


WestFalcon wrote:
Those of you recommending a bounce flash in a processional are asking for disaster. I love bounce but you are sometimes talking about a 40-60 foot ceiling in a typical church and it simply does not work. Walls won't work in a church either since they too are too far away. Manual flash works and can be harsh and ugly but it doesn't have to be if set properly. I think available light in most churches is also asking for trouble. After 30 years of wedding photography, I've tried about everything and manual flash is still my method.


In that case, churches must be of a different kind in the US. Probably - like most things - super-sized (mind you, no criticism: I like super-sized in all but my woman)

Regularly I get by pretty well without flash and if not, bouncing hardly ever is a problem. I've done weddings in churches no wider than just over 20 feet with nice bright white walls so recommending either is not asking for disaster. The images from the OP suggest this venue is not what you describe either but I might be wrong. In fact, my experience is direct flash during the processional is asking for disaster, but I must admit I've not tried manual flash yet (though I've been experimenting a bit lately). As always, there are different ways to tackle a problem and which one suits you can be a highly personal thing.

Bouncing off of a card on the flash may work but that doesn't soften very much since it's still a very small point light source.

In total agreement here. Use a card to direct some light forward when bouncing but I've never seen much of a difference between direct flash and using a card to direct all light forward.



Dec 29, 2008 at 07:44 AM
Dawei Ye
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p.3 #11 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Those walls and ceilings were ripe for bouncing!

Actually I wish I had those bounce conditions, at my last wedding it was a church with tungsten lights and those nasty red heater thingys that cast a red light on the subjects, with high ceiling and brick walls

*shudder*

actually I laugh when I think back to how bad it was, luckily RAW photos are pretty good when it comes to WB correction

Agree with most of what has been said, M, high ISO, bounce, no direct flash, no P mode, FEC + 2/3 or so, even FEB with CP-E4 Battery Pack if conditions are tough. I think the shots are still saveable with some PP love though. There's been some great advice in this thread, I'm glad I read it



Dec 29, 2008 at 07:58 AM
cgardner
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p.3 #12 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


With respect to Canon ETTL evaluative metering there's a big difference between what is technically correct exposure (i.e. blow no highlights) and what looks correctly exposed perceptually.

Because of the short range of the sensor, a nominally exposed (i.e. no blown highlights anywhere) file will look grossly underexposed perceputualy in contrasty lighting conditions such as backlight from the sun or when flash is bounced and there are unfilled shadows.

Regardless of how flash is metered it will obey the laws of physics no? So what's actually happening with average metering is that average, weighted towards firing more flash by the predominantly dark background, will actually blow some of the highlight detail when adjusted to make the overall shot look well exposed perceptionally. Perceptually we will accept blown highlights if we don't expect to see detail there, such as the flat part of a dress. Its only when stuff like the lace and beadwork disappears that overexposure will be noticed perceptually. So in technical terms many average metered or manual flash shots, adjusted perceptually are actually over-exposed in some highlights.

Once you grasp the fact that ETTL evaluative will not blow ANY highlights it changes the way you evaluate the scene and apply FEC. When I first started using ETTL, after 30+ years with manual and auto-thyristor Vivitars I made FEC decisions the same way I had based on what I thought the perceptual average was.

Auto thyristor averaging flashes aren't foolproof or automatic either, it just takes a much greater change in the scene to shift the average. For example, if using a 285HV in auto mode at the f/8 setting the exposure might be perfect for a H&S shot of the groom, but when the bride was added the additional light reflecting from the dress would be enough to affect the auto sensor on the flash. Seeing more light it would output less flash and instead of shooting at f/8 you'd open the lens a bit more, otherwise the shot with the bride would be underexposed.

Because weddings create constantly changing scene contrast between a viewfinder filled with mostly white in one shot and a viewfinder filled with mostly black void (open space) the the next no automatic exposure system is 100% reliable and foolproof. That's why most wedding shooters use M mode. Not because its simpler, but because it is more predictable in situations where there's only one opportunity to get the shot.

I'd been using one and two flashes for so long in manual mode that when I looked at a scene I didn't measure distance in feet mentally, I just looked and thought "Hmmm... she's f/7 away" and adjusted the aperture without much thought. With two flashes you simply move the off camera light in and out as the shooting distance changes to retain the same ratio - quite easy if your off camera light is on a wheeled IV stand like mine is. Its a technique I learned working for Zucker in the 1970s. He introduced and popularized the idea of using dual flash for "candid" wedding reception coverage.

If you manual flash consistently for about a week and pay attention to the f/stops and distances you'll find the process will also become instinctive: you'll measure distance in f/stops too.

Like everyone else I was really pissed-off at spending $800 on a pair of 580ex flashes to replace the trusty Vivitars only to get worse results with ETTL-II metering. And like any good gear-head I was determined to find a way to make it work.

Once I figured out how ETTL evaluative keyed off the highlights and erred on the side of not blowing any it shifted my mental baseline. I realized that as I say above the same laws of physics applied to power and distance. I also noticed that ETTL-II shots while looking underexposed overall, rarely had any significant image areas with any blow highlights where as my perceputally based manual exposures did because I was basing the exposure decision on the mid-tone detail. Then it finally dawned on me that ETTL-II was design to make FEC=0 a starting baseline of "OK I didn't blow any highlights, but now you figure out how to handle the scene perceptually".

That was a eye opener in two ways: I understood how evaluative metering worked and realized that in many cases in the past I did blow highlights to make the exposure look normal (as by eye) on the playback in the midtones and shadows perceptually. I was still "exposing for the shadows" perceptually, but just not noticing or discounting the blown highlights.

Consider that if you were to shoot the same scene first in M, then in ETTL evaluative, then ETTL average you could make them look exactly the same perceptually and the actual flash power used would be identical. But if adjusted perceptually for the midtone detail they would all probably have identically blown highlights. Hmmm... You begin to realize the problem isn't the flash, but rather the fact the sensor can't record the scene correctly due to the fact it has a longer range.

Fact is if you take any shot and expose it nominally for no clipping anywhere it will start to look darker than normal in the midtones and shadows whenever the range of the scene in f/stops exceeeds the DR of the sensor. There's a simple way to compensate for that perceptually - move the middle slider in levels to the right or adjust the middle in curves. It doesn't increase the range of the capture but it will lighten the middle and 3/4 tones fooling the eye into thinking more detail has been captured.

With a bit more experimentation I found that the over-exposure warning showed me exactly when optimal exposure of the highlights was occuring. Optimally exposing the highlights also means that the full range of the sensor is being used. That is when I began to realize ETTL-II actuall understood digital exposure better than I did.

Its also important to realize that I've used dual flash since 1972 and rarely take a single flash shot indoors if I can avoid it, even if only to park the off camera light behind for back/rim light. As a result I never worried about shadow noise with digital because I could simply add fill as needed to pull up the shadow detail above the noise threshold of the sensor. Conversely when I did use single flash or ambient without fill it was easier to see, by comparison, how the limits of the sensor affected perception of "correct" exposure.

Using two flashes, which I did from the start with the Canon system, was quite simple in ETTL mode. Set the desired A:B ratio then dial in FEC until the highlights were correctly exposed by monitoring the OEW. Sure the amount if FEC varied, but as noted above the same variation had occured when using auto thyristor averaging too. I accept it as a fact of life with auto metering.

With a single flash I found that if I let ETTL guide me into exposing the highlights correctly the camera would sometimes capture images which looked overexposed perceptually but which contained the fullest possible range of actual detail from the scene from highlight down to the noise threshold of the sensor. It requires a bit more work in Photoshop to pull that detail in the midtones up to the point it looks normal perceptionally and similar to a perceptually adjusted "average" metered shot, but from a techical point of view the net result is better.

An interesting side effect of using E-TTL and letting it "police" my exposure based on the brightest highlights in the frame was realizing that in many cases I had not been composing my flash shots very well. Accepting that some blown highlights are OK to get exposure of the midtones right leads to not worrying too much if something in the foreground got blown out. But knowing that ETTL-II evaluative would key the whole exposure off that foreground distraction caused me to compose more carefully so what I wanted correctly exposed was closest to the flash, and everything I wanted correctly exposed was the same distance -- the advice suggested earlier as the path to more predictable ETTL exposures.

So rather than getting frustrated with ETTL and dismissing its a worthless I discovered how to make it work: 1) Always use two flashes when possible, and 2) expect to make some adjustments of the mid-tones in Photoshop to compensate for the lame range of the sensor.

In the days before digital when shooting transparencies the only option available was #1, which is why in the good old days the barrier between being a hobbiest and a pro wasn't the camera gear but rather the fact the pro usually had $20,000 invested in lighting equipment.

The best investments digital shooters can make today is buying a second flash and taking the time to learn how to how to use it with ETTL ratios and M power settings. Once the second flash is in play ETTL becomes more practical and reliable because its no longer necessary to base exposure on perception of the mid-tones. In all cases the highlights can be exposed nominally and the full range of the sensor exploited. Like many things the reasons why it works do not become apparent until its used.







Dec 29, 2008 at 08:14 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #13 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


jrsforums wrote:
ETTL II in evaluative flash mode is going to do it's best NOT to blow out your highlights. Actually, the brides dress is about what you would expect with '0' FEC. The problem is that higher exposure (the +2 in PP), you have the rest of the scene OK, but the dress is blown.




The dress in the second photo isn't blown on my screen, it's just right.


And please let me clarify, it's not a problem with my experience and how my camera works, I'm quite capable with it, and I've been generally happy with it in P mode, but I am really wondering what is going on when the camera decides to underexpose THIS badly when using the flash, sometimes.



Dec 29, 2008 at 08:28 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #14 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


tutumon wrote:
Three suggestions for you.....

1. Manual Mode
2. Histogram
3. FEC




I shoot in manual mode a lot, mostly at the reception.



Dec 29, 2008 at 08:29 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #15 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


Lord Fluff wrote:
Dude, if you think your camera should be able to do everything for you, then yeah, it's an experience thing.



No, it's not, when the camera randomly decides to underexpose by 2 stops.



Dec 29, 2008 at 08:33 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #16 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


PasiM wrote:
Well, Will... You can only wonder how the other photographers get great pictures with the same equipment.

They have learned to use them right.



99% of my shots come out great. I'm the 2nd shooter and 70-80% of the final album photos are taken by me. Once again, I'm wondering why the camera does this without warning.

Edited on Dec 29, 2008 at 08:46 AM · View previous versions



Dec 29, 2008 at 08:35 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #17 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


flash wrote:
Will,

Currently, compared to every other Canon body I own and use, (6 others in total) my new 5D2 is exposing wedding dresses consistantly about a full stop than any other body I own. Like you I am surprised and dissapointed by the performance of the flash metering on this new body. I am required to rethink how I use flash at wedding because of this. You'll need the flash exposure button a lot.

I have over a thousand weddings experience and so far this is the most inconsistant performance I've had from a new body.

Gordon




Funny you say that, I found myself messing with the FEC a lot yesterday, a lot more than I ever did on my 1d3, 1d2, 5d, 30d, or xt.

Edited on Dec 29, 2008 at 08:47 AM · View previous versions



Dec 29, 2008 at 08:38 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #18 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


WestFalcon wrote:
Those of you recommending a bounce flash in a processional are asking for disaster. I love bounce but you are sometimes talking about a 40-60 foot ceiling in a typical church and it simply does not work. Walls won't work in a church either since they too are too far away. Manual flash works and can be harsh and ugly but it doesn't have to be if set properly. I think available light in most churches is also asking for trouble. After 30 years of wedding photography, I've tried about everything and manual flash is still my method.

Bouncing off
...Show more



Exactly. I was in a church with very high, very sloped ceilings, bouncing was not even a consideration.




I do know that I need a bracket. I almost got one but it was when I had my 1d3, I then decided to get the 5d so I'm glad I didn't because it changes the type of bracket I'd want to get.



Dec 29, 2008 at 08:40 AM
Will Patterson
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p.3 #19 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


I do appreciate the informative replies. There is some great info here. I do know that ETTL can be a pain sometimes, I've never really been wow'ed by it. And I still have some to learn when it comes to multiple flashes/light sources (I'd love to be able to shoot with more than the onboard flash), but I don't want to go into it blindly. I need to invest in a few pocket wizards and maybe some Elinchrom's, but that is down the road.


Dec 29, 2008 at 08:52 AM
Dawei Ye
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p.3 #20 · Technique for shooting brides dresses?


I think some of us were calling for bounce because from the looks of one of your photos (the one with the man with glasses) the ceiling was at most 4.5 metres high...apologies, I didn't read it was sloped, must have been higher towards your position


Dec 29, 2008 at 08:54 AM
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