I'm thinking you should be setting WB manually for sure. Either daylight/flash if blasting away, or better yet if indoors, with a gel to balance with the ambient. No?
the white of the wedding dress will cause the camera to underexpose the rest of the image a fair bit... that's ok... I mean, how does the camera know it's a wedding dress? the auto flash is doing its job...
but an expensive auto flash and camera do not make a good photographer!
YOU need to direct the camera to do what you need.
what were your ISO, aperture, shutter speed settings for those photos?
also if you are in a dim church and you can't bounce there are ways to get better quality light from your flash (lightsphere, any of the lumiquest things, etc - the bigger, the better!)
as a rule you should pretty much NEVER use direct flash as your main light source. sometimes you can get away with using it for fill flash (but that's not your main light source if you are doing that)
you should be in manual mode... set your aperture as wide as you can, and whatever ISO you need to maintain a decent shutter speed (1/100 at a minimum is a good rule, if you have steady hands you can go slower)
use FEL (flash exposure lock) - that's the 'pre-flash' where the camera will meter things...
WB is tricky with mixed light sources. flash is 5000K, dim incadescent lights will be 2700K (or lower) and will give you that yellow cast. you can change your flash's colour with gels... try to stick to one light colour of light, mixing gives weird colours... (if you end up with bad colour casts, you can usually salvage things by going to black and white, if your client likes that)
if you WB for flash, everything else will be yellow. if you WB for incandescent lights, anything with flash will be blue... amber gels can make your flash closer to the incandescent lights...
Whenever you take indoor pictures and you are using camera settings that pick up a lot of ambient light, you will get color balance problems when you throw flash light into the mix. The only solution that I know of is to shoot raw and then set your WB in the raw converter.
It is really not practical to shoot a custom WB in most of these situations because the color of the light will change as you move around. One corner of a room might have lots of incadescent light while the other side has a greater proportion of window light. Go into the room where the bride is getting ready and you have florescent. It changes continually. So I shoot raw and then adjust to whatever looks best in the raw converter.
Whenever I am going to be shooting in one area / one direction for a fair amount of time - such as the location where the actual ceremony takes place or indoor group shots, I will try to get one shot with a grey card in the frame. This helps balance things out. The "white" bride's dress is almost never really white.
I really don't know how the 5DMKII measures up to the 5DMKI in regard to getting the WB right. I don't have enough experience with the MKII to make any decision on that.
It does its job 1/2 of the time. Sometimes it underexposes like crazy, other times it's fine.
What does being a good/bad photographer have to do with the camera going from being fine to screwing up this bad? It's a big surprise when it happens.
joezasada wrote:
what were your ISO, aperture, shutter speed settings for those photos?
1st shot - f/3.5, 1/60th, ISO 400
2nd shot - same settings, but I had even dialed IN 1/3 exposure comp.
Both in P mode.
joezasada wrote:
also if you are in a dim church and you can't bounce there are ways to get better quality light from your flash (lightsphere, any of the lumiquest things, etc - the bigger, the better!)
I have a Lumniquest light sphere but I really don't like what it does so I'm getting rid of it. I've had it since October but always find myself removing it.
joezasada wrote:
as a rule you should pretty much NEVER use direct flash as your main light source. sometimes you can get away with using it for fill flash (but that's not your main light source if you are doing that)
Couldn't help it. Like I said, it was either that, or I had horrible shutter speed, or crank up the ISO to 25,600.
joezasada wrote:
you should be in manual mode... set your aperture as wide as you can, and whatever ISO you need to maintain a decent shutter speed (1/100 at a minimum is a good rule, if you have steady hands you can go slower)
1/100th @ f/2.8 wasn't possible in that and other situation(s). Would have come out way too dark. I would have had to point the flash at them anyway.
joezasada wrote:
use FEL (flash exposure lock) - that's the 'pre-flash' where the camera will meter things...
I can't be messing around with stuff like that as the bride is walking down the isle, I appreciate the suggestion tho.
joezasada wrote:
WB is tricky with mixed light sources. flash is 5000K, dim incadescent lights will be 2700K (or lower) and will give you that yellow cast. you can change your flash's colour with gels... try to stick to one light colour of light, mixing gives weird colours... (if you end up with bad colour casts, you can usually salvage things by going to black and white, if your client likes that)
if you WB for flash, everything else will be yellow. if you WB for incandescent lights, anything with flash will be blue... amber gels can make your flash closer to the incandescent lights... ...Show more →
I'm aware of all that, I was really just pointing out that the camera really gets the WB wrong sometimes.
CBDigital wrote:
Whenever you take indoor pictures and you are using camera settings that pick up a lot of ambient light, you will get color balance problems when you throw flash light into the mix. The only solution that I know of is to shoot raw and then set your WB in the raw converter.
It is really not practical to shoot a custom WB in most of these situations because the color of the light will change as you move around. One corner of a room might have lots of incadescent light while the other side has a greater proportion of window light. Go into the room where the bride is getting ready and you have florescent. It changes continually. So I shoot raw and then adjust to whatever looks best in the raw converter.
Whenever I am going to be shooting in one area / one direction for a fair amount of time - such as the location where the actual ceremony takes place or indoor group shots, I will try to get one shot with a grey card in the frame. This helps balance things out. The "white" bride's dress is almost never really white.
I really don't know how the 5DMKII measures up to the 5DMKI in regard to getting the WB right. I don't have enough experience with the MKII to make any decision on that. ...Show more →
Yea, however the problem I am seeing is when I'm not using the flash, as in the last picture that I posted. And yea, I have no 'huge' problem dealing with it in post, but it's a step I'd sometimes like to not have to deal with, or atleast not as much.
ETTL II in evaluative flash mode is going to do it's best NOT to blow out your highlights. Actually, the brides dress is about what you would expect with '0' FEC. The problem is that higher exposure (the +2 in PP), you have the rest of the scene OK, but the dress is blown.
Now, you could have gotten that with just 1.5 - 2 FEC, but don't think blown whites on everyone (such as the prior shot's white collar on the gentleman) is what you want. The problem is you are asking the flash to do all of the heavy lifting.
You can help this by getting out of 'P' mode, and using 'M' to control the ambient to get a consistent level for the room/shots (adjusting on the go as needed). Also, the 5D2...and even the 5D...can produce great shots in dim light with 800 or even 1600 ISO. Use a higher ISO to also let more ambient in.
You then have a choice of flash metering mode...evaluative or averaging. While I will always use evaluative outside, as it does the best job to balance foreground and background...etc. etc....I will usually use averaging inside, particularly the wedding black/white scenes. If you get the right ambient and have a relatively high percentage of background in the shots, averaging will give you the most consistency shot to shot, while still adjusting for changing conditions.
None of this replaces some basics. First, take a bunch of test shots. (really first before you get to the church to learn you camera). Even if you cannot get to the church to test, you can take test shots of the audience to see if your settings are right and adjust before the ceremony starts. Second...chimping is not only allowed, but expected. The viewfinder is your friend...the main items there are the histogram and the OEW (Over Exposure Warnings). These can quickly tell you the status of your shots...better than just looking at the VF image (which on the 5D2 can easily be off due to the auto illumination).
Will Patterson wrote:
I was in portrait mode, the flash was then off to the right of me.
I suggest you consider a flash bracket...even an inexpensive Stroboframe. I don't think you will be happy with the lighting in portrait mode without one...irrespective of what Gary Fong might try to tell us
Will Patterson wrote:
So I'm going through pictures from yesterday's wedding I was a 2nd shooter at and wow am I frustrated at some of the photos of the bride, as usual. This was the 15th wedding I've shot and once again, there a bunch of shots where the camera was obviously exposing for the bride's dress ONLY and the entire rest of the picture is so dark that it's unuseable and I have to just delete it. I've noticed that it usually happens when the flash is direct, when I need some reach with it like when they're walking down the isle etc., but what should I do, automatically dial in +2 exposure when shooting anywhere in the bride's general direction so the camera doesn't act stupid?
GRRRRRRRRRR!!
Equipment I was using yesterday was a 5DII, 24-70, and 580EX. The camera seems to underexpose by about a half of a stop anyway in dark situations....Show more →
What does being a good/bad photographer have to do with the camera going from being fine to screwing up this bad? It's a big surprise when it happens.
.....
Disclaimer: I made this post with much reservation as you might have done all the "homework" with your gears.
You should not put the blame on your $$$$ equipment. If having expensive equipment eliminates technical issues on location shots, there won't be any wedding photographers. The features are there to make life easier but they are not capable of solving problems (lighting constraints etc).
I'm more surprised that you didn't invest enough time to learn and setup your equipment for reliable results before the wedding shoot. If any of your equipment is not producing reliable results, you don't use it. If you don't have any equipment that gives you reliable results (for that specific assigment), don't take up the assigment.
I've shot weddings for almost 30 years and always use manual exposure on the flash and preset a spot in the aisle where I will take the picture...about 12-15 feet. Usually I shoot about 1/4 power on the flash at ISO 400 on the camera.....the most important thing is to shoot it raw(I do a jpeg at the same time). I have never had problems with the brides dress....I simply do not like the flash making decisions on my photo since canon flashes are not consistent except on manual. I use automatic on other phases of the wedding. I always shoot horizontal too to eliminate side shadows. Yeah, I do a fair amount of cropping but I am happy with this technique. I can grab another quicky of the bride at 7-10 feet and with jpg's its a disaster but with raw, I can make a great print even though it may at first looked terribly burned out. I try to keep it simple and eliminate variables.
Because no matter how much you spend on your camera it has absolutely no way of knowing that you are aiming it at a white sheet instead of a scene that averages out to neutral gray... if you expect a camera to do that you should give up now.
Will Patterson wrote:
It's not an experience thing. I'm just wondering why I have to shoot in full out manual mode with a $5k camera and lens combo that should be doing it for me.
The problem is that you are shooting in Program mode. I'm sorry but ISO 400 for that church is far too low. Your results and outcome will be far more consistent if you start thinking about exposure for yourself rather than letting the camera do it. I believe only the last shot you've shown was taken at ISO 3200 and is the only decent exposure.
The root cause of most of your problems is how you are composing and aiming the flash. If you improve your understanding and skill in that area your exposures will be better.
For weddings the most foolproof configuration is a flash on a bracket over the lens, either direct or with a reflection-style diffuser. No bounce, no bowls, no variables you can't control or even reasonably predict. It works better because it illuminates everything in the viewfinder evenly.
With digital you must expose for highlight detail. The only problem in high contrast situations is that the camera can't record details in the shadows. One solution? Avoid high contrast situations. One way to do that is to use relatively flat, but still flattering light: exactly what you get with a flash bracket. Another solution? Use two flashes in a key / neutral fill configuration to reduce the contrast of the scene. Wedding photographer have been using both methods very successfully for at least 40 years. I know because I started using them 36 years ago.
Good flash photography starts by knowing how to compose a shot for flash. Regardless of how you control the flash, manual or TTL the exposure is only correct at one distance so you need to compose shots do what is most important is closest to the flash, and everything in the frame you want correctly exposed is the same distance from the flash.
Manual flash is the most predictable, but it requires the use on non-zooming flashes and somewhat rigid systematic approach to be practical in a situation like wedding candids.
ETTL can work predictably, but you need to understand what criteria it uses it evaluates the scene. It will find the brightest textured highlight and use just enough flash to keep it under the point of clipping, usually erring on the side of under exposure by about 1/3 stop. If you look at your first shot that's exactly what it did on the guy's collar. I checked it with Levels and the collar starts to clip at around 220, only about 20 points below normal, or about 1/3 of a stop. The problem with that shot is mostly in the way the flash was aimed an the fact much of the scene exceeded the range the camera could record.
What ETTL does at FEC =0 is give you a starting baseline. It tries to follow the prime directive DON'T BLOW THE HIGHLIGHTS. But the reality is that often you need to blow some of the highlights in a single flash shot to bring the mid-tone and shadow detail up in to the range the camera can record it the way our eyes see it in person.
What comes with the territory of using ETTL effectively is monitoring each shot via the over-exposure warning, and making FEC adjustments based on how well the camera metering guesses. Its a constant process of camera guess, you evaluate and adjust. The simplest tool for monitoring the exposure is the over-exposure warning which you can superimpose on the playback. it really makes digital exposure a no-brainer once you wrap your head around using it and get past thinking that +/- FEC means the camera got it wrong... especially when there is big white dress in the picture... Raise FEC until the point you see the dress start to clip, then back off 1/3 stop and you'll perfectly expose the dress and the face on top of it. The fact it might take +2 or +3 stops of FEC to get there only means that the dress is 2-3 stops brighter than the middle gray baseline FEC=0 represents.
Dual flash is ideal for weddings because its pretty much impossible to expose for good detail in the white dress and also get detail in the dark suits. But with two flashes with fill on the bracket and key overlapping it the fill on the bracket raises everything evenly to the point where the camera can record detail in the darkest shadows. Then the off camera light which overlaps the even fill creates the highlights. Combined the two lights change the range of the scene to exactly fit the range of the sensor, giving you results like this:
A full tonal range with no loss of detail anywhere. The lighting for that shot? A pair of 580ex flashes with 9 x 12 foam diffusers. Click the WWW button and read my Canon tutorials and you'll learn how to take shots like that with no problems.
ETTL and M mode are both useful but for different tasks.
Whenever your subject flash distance is constant M is better because it will not be affected by scene reflectance. So if shooting aisle shots, all from 10ft, its just as easy to use M. With a bit of experience and testing you'll have a pretty good idea what power level is needed at 6, 8, 10, 12 ft. You'll still probably need to tweek the power, but that's really all you are doing with FEC in ETTL mode so its really no more difficult.
In situations where you can't predict subject / flash distance or it isn't constant ETTL which adapts to changes in distance is a better choice. You'll need to tweek FEC to get the highlights just below clipping in the OEW and monitor as you shoot, but once you get it dialed in changes in shooting distance will be compensated for automatically.
If you want to raise your lighting to the next level learn to use two flashes in basic short and back lighting configurations. Those to configurations are the most flattering. Use short when you can control / predict the direction the face will be looking and back-rim light + fill when you can't and the lighting will always be flattering without any dark distracting shadows on the faces.
The key to getting consistent, predictable results is identifying and eliminating as many variables as possible. With respect to WB, don't use AWB. Get a gray card and do custom WB off the flash which lights the foreground where the important skin tones will be. If you use reflection diffusers the custom WB will adjust for them and it will be consistent. If you bounce WB becomes a crap shoot just like AWB.
ISO 400 is way too low for the church. a 20D can do perfectly well at 800 or 1600; the 5D2 should be able to go at least a few steps past that!
get out of program mode and go to manual. do a few test shots of spectators or the church interior itself in the church before the ceremony to get your exposure right.\
learn the flash and what to expect from it. sure, it's more work to set things on manual, but at least you'll get consistent results.
most of the best photographers I know stick to manual mode, since they know what they are shooting at and what kind of exposure they need. auto modes on cameras will always run into trouble when you are dealing with high-contrast scenarios, such as wedding dresses, snow, water, sunsets...
with a 5D2 and any amount of light you should be able to use the flash for fill-in instead of as the main light source... those high ISO settings and low noise are that camera's claim to fame!
white balance becomes less of an issue if you
-use gels on your flash to make it closer to the ambient light colour
-do custom WBs before the ceremony
-shoot in RAW
wedding photography is one of the most challenging forms of photography out there and it takes a while to learn this stuff... and the first rule is that automatic modes don't apply!
1st shot - f/3.5, 1/60th, ISO 400
2nd shot - same settings, but I had even dialed IN 1/3 exposure comp.
Both in P mode.
I have a Lumniquest light sphere but I really don't like what it does so I'm getting rid of it. I've had it since October but always find myself removing it.
Couldn't help it. Like I said, it was either that, or I had horrible shutter speed, or crank up the ISO to 25,600.
1/100th @ f/2.8 wasn't possible in that and other situation(s). Would have come out way too dark. I would have had to point the flash at them anyway.
I can't be messing around with stuff like that as the bride is walking down the isle, I appreciate the suggestion tho.
I'm aware of all that, I was really just pointing out that the camera really gets the WB wrong sometimes....Show more →
Will Patterson wrote:
You would have had to have been there. Quite a dark church, raining outside with next to no natural light coming inside, lights turned way down for some reason, etc. I had no other choice. It was either direct flash or horribly slow shutter speeds.
I can tell you that if I had been there, I still would not have contemplated direct flash. In most of the churches I shoot it isn't allowed anyway.
In the UK we can out-do you guys for dark churches any time - we have some that are basically like candlelight levels. For this fast glass and steady hands are all you need (especially given your camera's high ISO abilities).
I would never use flash for the processional. And why are you using it direct? Bounce my friend, bounce.
The Canon system is not perfect, but you seem to be expecting it to overcome your lack of technique / experience. Curse less and learn more. There are many posts that seem to be aiming at giving you an entire education here. If you're 2nd shooting talk to the main shooter and see what s/he can share with you.
Will Patterson wrote:
It's not an experience thing. I'm just wondering why I have to shoot in full out manual mode with a $5k camera and lens combo that should be doing it for me.
Dude, if you think your camera should be able to do everything for you, then yeah, it's an experience thing.
