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Archive 2008 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700

  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #1 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2008/12/sony-vs-nikon-v.html

The short version:

Sony a900: The Ultimate in Image Quality.

Nikon D700: Most Recommendable.

Canon 5DII: The Best Compromise.

The short review is an interesting read.



Dec 17, 2008 at 07:24 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.1 #2 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


good that we are all so tolerant


Dec 17, 2008 at 07:43 PM
Dan Kim
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p.1 #3 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Well at least he does claim himself to be one photographer, who doesn't have the final say.

In the right hands, it'd be hard to not be able to take good photos with any of these three cameras. I'm sure the majority of people who buy a D700/A900/5D2 are not just getting into photography, so other factors are/should be more important than which body is minutely better (of course each has their strengths as he and others have found - and resolution or AF speed may be more important to some rather than others); factors like existing lenses, lens selection, overall cost, etc. But yeah, it's interesting because it seems like the majority of reviewers would place the A900 at the bottom.



Dec 17, 2008 at 08:04 PM
Eric Gottesman
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p.1 #4 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


I don't know, that pic of the girl is so underexposed. You get what you deserve if you don't push the histogram to the right when shooting higher ISO. The WB is also so far off that it's contributing to noise. I think if you look for flaws in anything you will find them.

Also, from what I read in this forum (alt.), the EOS system is the most adaptable friendly mount and that must play into things here. AF isn't a factor with MF lenses anyway:o)

I in no way have the money for a new camera, but if I did, I'd be seriously thinking about the 5D II. On average, people say it's about a stop better for noise than a 5D, more resolution, and video to play with. One can dream...



-Eric



Dec 17, 2008 at 08:25 PM
mawz
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p.1 #5 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


@Eric Gottesman: there's more to the D700 than just the AF, although that leaps out. The flash system, metering, frame rate (5/8 vs 3.9), build, UI, control configurability, sealing, battery options, etc.

Note the pic of the girl is 100% or 300% crops. We have no idea what the light source or full frame was and therefore can't judge exposure or WB.

The D700 body is significantly superior to the 5D body, but the imaging system is where the 5DmII has its value. Like the original 5D it's a world-class high-MP sensor in a merely average body, while the D700 is a moderate MP sensor in the most capable body in-class.

The 5D's going to be more desirable here due to the ease of adaptation to EF mount, but for anyone who relies on body capability in edge-case situations the D700 will have an advantage over the 5DmII or A900.



Dec 17, 2008 at 09:27 PM
Eric Gottesman
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p.1 #6 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


mawz wrote:
@Eric Gottesman: there's more to the D700 than just the AF, although that leaps out. The flash system, metering, frame rate (5/8 vs 3.9), build, UI, control configurability, sealing, battery options, etc.

Note the pic of the girl is 100% or 300% crops. We have no idea what the light source or full frame was and therefore can't judge exposure or WB.

The D700 body is significantly superior to the 5D body, but the imaging system is where the 5DmII has its value. Like the original 5D it's a world-class high-MP sensor in a merely average body, while the D700 is a
...Show more

My post here in the alt. forum is for the reason you state (lens alternatives). Many of the lenses used here are manual focus. I have one and one more on the way. Seeing what these lenses can do compared to what available today is enough for me. Auto focus takes away the fun from some of my applications. There nothing like a good focus ring and a proper aperture markings for some of the shots I like to take.

If I were to buy a new FF camera today and I had nothing already vested or I wasn't concerned with adapting lenses, I would choose the Nikon for your reasons. If I'm happy with the sensor in my current 5D and could get the features of the Nikon with an even better sensor, I'd do it. Right now, there are other priorities that make me drool over the 5D II first. If money weren't an object, I'd get a Nikon D700 or D3x and a few lenses and use both systems, but that's not going to happen.

I still think the crop of the girl is just not a good example of noise output. I get keepers with my 5D @ 3200ISO with some care. I would be more concerned with output and how it affects the subject of the capture. If she is the subject, it's not a proper exposure (underexposed).

-Eric



Dec 17, 2008 at 09:57 PM
mawz
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p.1 #7 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Eric Gottesman wrote:
My post here in the alt. forum is for the reason you state (lens alternatives). Many of the lenses used here are manual focus. I have one and one more on the way. Seeing what these lenses can do compared to what available today is enough for me. Auto focus takes away the fun from some of my applications. There nothing like a good focus ring and a proper aperture markings for some of the shots I like to take.


I agree entirely. I'm primarily an MF lens user (Nikon mount on my film and digital stuff, Contax on film). I greatly prefer my old MF lenses handling to newer AF lenses, although I'm willing to make exceptions for certain stellar or non-duplicatable AF lenses (Since I currently shoot DX crop, I need my AF wides)


If I were to buy a new FF camera today and I had nothing already vested or I wasn't concerned with adapting lenses, I would choose the Nikon for your reasons. If I'm happy with the sensor in my current 5D and could get the features of the Nikon with an even better sensor, I'd do it. Right now, there are other priorities that make me drool over the 5D II first. If money weren't an object, I'd get a Nikon D700 or D3x and a few lenses and use both systems, but that's not going to happen.


Same situation here, just in Nikon-land. If money was no object I'd have myself a Mamiya AFDIII and a PhaseOne back for most of my digital work, as it is I make do with my D300 and D40 along with my film kit.


I still think the crop of the girl is just not a good example of noise output. I get keepers with my 5D @ 3200ISO with some care. I would be more concerned with output and how it affects the subject of the capture. If she is the subject, it's not a proper exposure (underexposed).

-Eric


Can't disagree there, I suspect she's not the main subject of the shot, but Mike J hasn't specified. We could always deluge him with Kitten and Flower shots until he does ;-)

-Adam



Dec 17, 2008 at 10:33 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #8 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Dan Kim wrote:
But yeah, it's interesting because it seems like the majority of reviewers would place the A900 at the bottom.


Which reviews would those be? It seems like you could not make a sweeping, generalized statement like that without mentioning the criteria evaluated.



Dec 17, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Eric Gottesman
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p.1 #9 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Which reviews would those be? It seems like you could not make a sweeping, generalized statement like that without mentioning the criteria evaluated.


Nothing that I site, but the fact that the A900 is not as good a performer at higher ISOs will put off many people. In a studio it sounds like a nice alternative, but if the results are truly inferior, then it's not a great option for many shooting styles.

-Eric



Dec 17, 2008 at 11:04 PM
dougjk
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p.1 #10 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


My understanding of the shot of the girl is that it is there to illustrate his point about 5dII noise being "tilted to the chroma type" and having a "weird, blotchy character." I don't think it's intended to be an illustration of typical noise levels at that iso (which is 5000, not 3200).


Dec 17, 2008 at 11:48 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #11 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Eric Gottesman wrote:
Nothing that I site, but the fact that the A900 is not as good a performer at higher ISOs will put off many people. In a studio it sounds like a nice alternative, but if the results are truly inferior, then it's not a great option for many shooting styles.

-Eric


I think it will put off a few/some people but not many and would bet that the number of shooting styles that require the combination of ultra high iso/high mp for huge reproduction are relatively few, though there are no doubt a few categories. Those who think the a900 is only good in the studio or sitting on tripod are mistaken. It is a very quick handling, responsive camera.

One of the great ironies to me about the 5DII is that it has this ability to give good high iso/low noise image quality combined with high resolution yet the af in those same lighting situations is terrible(according to reviews such as the one in pop photo). Low light shooting is where af makes the largest difference to me compared to manual focus. In contrast, pop photo found the a900 af to be competitive with the D700 in both bright light and low light (though the af is certainly not as good as the Nikon in other areas).

As mentioned earlier though, the Canon EF mount is definitely the most friendly mount for the widest variety of alternative lenses.



Dec 18, 2008 at 12:10 AM
thrice
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p.1 #12 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


I agree with everything others have said.

I already had canon glass and alt glass adapted to canon. If i were after a body, didn't already have a significant amount invested in lenses and needed af native mount glass i would have bought a d700 no question about it.



Dec 18, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Lotusm50
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p.1 #13 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


It think the review is actually pretty consistent with what we've been saying around here.

D700: the best body with great high ISO performance
a900: best IQ at base ISO, nice viewfinder
5D Mkll: best compromise -- almost as good as a900 at base ISO but much better at high ISO, as good as D700 at high ISO (IMHO, this is where Mike's analysis falters a bit), but not as good (slower, not as well-built) a body as the D700. I'm not sure "compromise" is the best word. But perhaps the be combination of features for market success.

And consistent with the comments above and the comments on Mike's web page, there really isn't enough in the a900 to get a significant, or sufficient, number of people to switch. The switching costs (lenses, systems, learning curves, etc.) are high for what can be seen as a marginal improvement in IQ only at 100 ISO. Even with some of the teething problems of the 5D Mkll (can't Canon produce a clean product introduction?!) it is still sold out for the next 2 months (get in line now, if you are not already), whereas the a900 is readily available at all the sources I look at (Amazon, B&H, Adorama, Calumet, J&R, Ritz, Samy's). Anecdotal, to be sure, but I think indicative. Interestingly, the price of the D700 has been dropping like a stone. It's now $2319 at Amazon. A great body, but it does seem that megapixels still sells (in spite of there being more there than needed for many customers). I suspect that it's price will continue to drop to about $1999.

Personally, I was ready to make the switch -- there is a lot to dislike about Canon. But I'm just not sufficiently compelled right now to do it. The hassle and cost of switching all those lenses really makes it tough, as it will for many others.

I suspect that Sony, in light of its competitors' new products and the response of consumers, is busily working on improving high ISO performance. How long will it be before we see an "a900 Mkll" with improved noise characteristics? I suspect by this time next year, the latest. And if they succeed (and those rumored new ZA primes make it to market), that might be enough to get me to switch. Then again, a D700 with the chip from the new D3x might be pretty compelling as well (which given how the D700 is now selling, we are almost certain to see). Isn't competition wonderful?

I further suspect that my response to this competitive rumble is not dissimilar to a sizable portion of potential customers (but certainly not all).




Dec 18, 2008 at 07:20 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #14 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Lotusm50 wrote:
It think the review is actually pretty consistent with what we've been saying around here.

D700: the best body with great high ISO performance
a900: best IQ at base ISO, nice viewfinder
5D Mkll: best compromise -- almost as good as a900 at base ISO but much better at high ISO, as good as D700 at high ISO (IMHO, this is where Mike's analysis falters a bit), but not as good (slower, not as well-built) a body as the D700. I'm not sure "compromise" is the best word. But perhaps the be combination of features for market success.

And consistent with the comments above
...Show more

Agree. Had I a substantial investment in Canon glass or alternatives that were not compatible with the a900, I would have stuck with Canon. As it was, I had to give up my 85 1.8 and plastic fantastic 50 1.8 in Canon glass and the only alt lens I was using which was not compatible at the time of my switch was the OM 24 2.8. My other primary alt lenses are M42 mount (Zeiss Flek 35, a couple of Pentax Takumars). The recent conversion of the Minolta Rokkor 58 1.2 for the a900 was a breeze. Likewise, If I shot high ISO subject matter on a routine basis, I would not have switched.

I do not own the Sony a700 myself but owners of that camera claim that a simple firmware upgrade went a long way towards improving its high ISO image quality. It may not require as much as a complete revision of the a900 body to improve high iso Image quality.

I think the Sony has been selling better than you suspect. I have noticed it go in and out of stock twice in the past few weeks at B&H and Adorama's web site is not reliable regarding stock in my buying experience(I have recently purchased items which the web site did not indicate were out of stock yet they were). It is in stock currently at B&H.



Dec 18, 2008 at 08:26 AM
mawz
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p.1 #15 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I do not own the Sony a700 myself but owners of that camera claim that a simple firmware upgrade went a long way towards improving its high ISO image quality. It may not require as much as a complete revision of the a900 body to improve high iso Image quality.



The way the v4 firmware solved the noise problem for the A700 was enable the option of turning off the (awful) in-camera NR in favour of doing it entirely in post. Sony's NR was the source of the A700's noise issues, not the solution, with the ability to disable it what became clear was the A700 has a very similar noise profile to the D300 with NR off, and it's fairly easy to produce clean files in post if the Sony NR isn't turning the fine noise of the 12MP sensor into massive ugly colour blotches.



Dec 18, 2008 at 02:21 PM
Anon Moss
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p.1 #16 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


There are a couple of items in the last few posts that were not mentioned in comparing the A900/D700/5D2. These are all excellent cameras with various strengths and weaknesses, and I had a difficult time deciding between the three. My 51 year old eyes need/want/enjoy liveview for critical focusing on tripod especially with 3rd party lenses...so the A900 was out of the running (for the time being - but I would strongly consider future versions). The D700 is an all around fine camera - I have strongly recommended it to others...and came damn close to pulling the trigger on one myself...but I HAVE to have larger files for cropping and printing large. At the end of the day, the 5D2 was the only body that delivered everything that I needed (today). The 1Ds3 has the MPs I need for printing large but it is twice the price and has the old LCD. The D3X has the MPs but is 8K and does not yet exist for purchase.
I have a lot of Canon glass that I like, and the versatility of the Canon mount for 3rd party lenses is a strong plus for me. I went with the 5D2 for now, but who know what the future will bring. Depending on an individual shooter's needs I can't see anyone going wrong with any of these bodies.
Cheers,
Scott



Dec 18, 2008 at 02:35 PM
PhotoMaximum
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p.1 #17 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


When I was a green kid in my early PJ days everyone shot Nikon. When Canon came out with the EF mount a lot of guys dumped Nikon and went with the Canon EOS system. When the early Nikon digital SLR's (D1, D1h etc) came out (Canon was yet to release a digital SLR) a lot guys dumped Canon and switched back to Nikon. When Canon came out with full frame digital SLRs a lot of people dumped Nikon to jump on the Canon FF bandwagon. Now Nikon has some great cameras and good wide lenses and people are again dumping their Canon system to go to Nikon.

I know some folks have made these switches several times. Its kind of like chasing your own tail. The constant switching can cost one serious money.

But for you all you new Nikon switchers: I hear Canon is coming out with the new revolutionary...



Dec 18, 2008 at 02:57 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #18 · Mike Johnston's take on the Canon 5DII, Sony a900 and Nikon D700


PhotoMaximum wrote:
When I was a green kid in my early PJ days everyone shot Nikon. When Canon came out with the EF mount a lot of guys dumped Nikon and went with the Canon EOS system. When the early Nikon digital SLR's (D1, D1h etc) came out (Canon was yet to release a digital SLR) a lot guys dumped Canon and switched back to Nikon. When Canon came out with full frame digital SLRs a lot of people dumped Nikon to jump on the Canon FF bandwagon. Now Nikon has some great cameras and good wide lenses and people are again
...Show more



For small format, I started with a hand me down Minolta SRT, then was given a Minolta X700 followed by a Nikon FM. The first 35mm camera I purchased myself was a Nikon F2+Motor. Loved that camera until it was stolen, along with all the lenses! Then it was a Canon T90 and older Canon EF Black Beauty. I avoided AF like the plague at the time. My first digital was the Canon G1, then a Fuji S2(Nikon body), Canon 5D and finally Sony(Minolta) a900. It is funny how these things go back and forth. I suspect I will stay where I'm at until larger format digital comes down in price as I see that as the only sensible next jump.



Dec 18, 2008 at 03:20 PM





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