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Archive 2008 · Business Basics (Pricing)

  
 
jcolman
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p.2 #1 · Business Basics (Pricing)


prof_fate wrote:
No its not.
Lexus is 20 years old and cadillac is 100. Lexus' cost more than Caddy's.
McDonalds is older than Starbucks but costs less.

There is no connection between the two.

BTW, this photog gets $8000 for the shoot - albums are extra.



Your analogy doesn't make sense. Lexus and Cadillac both compete for the same market share and both make high end machines. I'm comparing a new wedding shooter to an established pro. Kind of like comparing a Chevy Cobalt to a Lexus. One is at the lower end of the market while the other is at the higher end. While marketing has a lot to do with pricing, the quality of the product is the final determining factor, and that's my point.

I'm happy for you that you make so much $$$$ on your shoots. I do this as a second job. Want to compare first jobs?



Nov 29, 2008 at 12:06 AM
flash
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p.2 #2 · Business Basics (Pricing)


If you want to survive as a pro you will need to know both what the market will accept and what you need to survive. Choosing just market forces as your only price planning tool will inevitably fail. And in most areas there's more than one price point. It just depends whether you're good enough to compete and survive in the one you choose.

The only one who can just find a hole in the market and price at that point are the one's who make some income from other areas than photography. The rest of us need to know how much we need to earn to survive (ie: not starve to death) and then find a way we can earn that amount.

Gordon

Gordon



Nov 29, 2008 at 02:09 AM
BrianO
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p.2 #3 · Business Basics (Pricing)


Mike Mahoney wrote:
...Stop wasting time by figuring out your desired profits and then setting your price according to your needs .. customers could care less.


Well, it's good to know that they do care, even if only a little.

I was worried that they couldn't care less (because nothing is less than zero).



Nov 29, 2008 at 04:35 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #4 · Business Basics (Pricing)


The Grays wrote:
Like I mentioned earlier, you should post how much you made this year and then whoever made the most should have everyone else follow their advice.

David Jay raised his prices from $2,500 to start to $15,000 and instantly became one of the top 15 photojournalists in the world. We should all do the same as fast as possible!

We set our prices according to what we want to make and are not too interested in the regular or average client who wants photos. My friend Sean McLellan lives in our area and he and his wife shot
...Show more

Very simplistic notion that DJ (or anyone else) simply raised his prices to gain success.
There's much more to his story than that, and you probably know it.

The most significant thing he did was study the $15,000 wedding market segment and took the required steps to compete in that market. Not everyone has that ability (photographic skill & marketing abilities) or access to that higher dollar demographic.

If the road to success was paved only by higher prices we'd all be paying $250,000 for underwear.



Nov 29, 2008 at 06:22 AM
The Grays
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p.2 #5 · Business Basics (Pricing)


You are definitely right about David Jay!

There is always more to raising prices other that just raising your prices. We have raised prices by 100% in the last year alone and it was more than just setting a new price. What I am saying is that perception is huge in business. You can decide how you want to live and what you want to make if you go about it the right way. David Jay's status as a top photographer had a lot to do with his price point and not a lot to do with his photography skills. No one would name him one of the top 15 shooters in the world if he started at $2,500. Price point says something about you (all this I heard from David including how he became "one of the top 15 wedding photographers in the world") and his price says that he is great.

I hope that helps clarify what I was trying to say.

-Zach



Nov 30, 2008 at 11:58 PM
BrianO
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p.2 #6 · Business Basics (Pricing)


The Grays wrote:
"You are definitely right about David Jay!

There is always more to raising prices other tha[n] just raising your prices."


Precisely!

Someone who says "Price is only about supply and demand" knows little about running a service business and even less about economics.

The laws of supply and demand apply to commodities of limited supply; they do not strictly apply to services, nor to products of intangible worth. In those cases, the demand is created...it's all smoke and mirrors!

When Rembrandt von Rijn first put paint to canvas, there was no demand for his "product." The demand was created by Rembrandt himself, by the quality of his work. The high prices commanded today for his works are a factor, not of the supply of paintings in general (there are lots of paintings), but by the fixed and limited supply of his paintings.

There is little limit to the supply of couples getting married, and even less to the supply of people with cameras who could be put to work shooting their weddings.

We, as photographers, create our own value by creating demand for our services.

A new photographer who simply copies the price sheet of a competitor ("charging market rate") is unlikely to survive in the business except by sheer luck. The vast majority of new businesses, and photo businesses in particular, will fail in their first year...not due to improper pricing, but due to undercapitalization.

It can take a year or more before one's profit and loss statements are in the black; and if one's balance sheet is also in the red, bankruptcy is inevitable.

To start a successful business you must first determine how much money you will need to survive for one fiscal year (including not only current liabilities, but also new liabilities from starting and running the business), then project how much income there will be during the year (by running "what if" scenarios with a spreadsheet, and setting business practices based on those scenarios), and then finally add the projected income to the current and projected assets...savings, equity, etc. (A volunteer from SCORE -- the Service Corps of Retired Executives -- or a similar organization can help one make realistic projections.)

If the assets plus projected income are not equal to or greater than the projected liabilities, then the business has already failed.

I would advise anyone thinking about starting a business to first contact the Small Business Administration and get all the information they can. Then, take a course at two or three at the local college on bookkeeping, accounting, small business fundamentals, etc. Short of that, an apprenticeship at an exisitng photo business, or at least having an experienced mentor to help one get a running start, will be invaluable.

A good camera and a good eye are essential to success, but they are not enough.



Dec 01, 2008 at 01:55 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #7 · Business Basics (Pricing)


BrianO wrote:
Someone who says "Price is only about supply and demand" knows little about running a service business and even less about economics.

The laws of supply and demand apply to commodities of limited supply; they do not strictly apply to services, nor to products of intangible worth. In those cases, the demand is created...it's all smoke and mirrors!

When Rembrandt von Rijn first put paint to canvas, there was no demand for his "product." The demand was created by Rembrandt himself, by the quality of his work. The high prices commanded today for his works are a factor, not of the supply
...Show more

I'll stop reading & quoting you right here as your first three or four paragraphs are so incorrect the rest of your post is unlikely to save you.

To say that basic economic laws such as supply & demand do not apply to the service industry is very wrong.

To say that that there is no limit to the number of brides getting married is very wrong .. you can easily search for the bridal market numbers and trends to see how many will be married in any year.

To say that there was no market for oil paintings before Rembrant is very wrong.


Price is only about supply & demand regardless of the product or industry sector, in fact the economic definition of price is where supply & demand meet.



Dec 01, 2008 at 04:29 AM
BrianO
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p.2 #8 · Business Basics (Pricing)


Mike Mahoney wrote:
"I'll stop reading & quoting you right here as your first three or four paragraphs are so incorrect the rest of your post is unlikely to save you.

To say that basic economic laws such as supply & demand do not apply to the service industry is very wrong.

To say that that there is no limit to the number of brides getting married is very wrong .. you can easily search for the bridal market numbers and trends to see how many will be married in any year.

To say that there was no market for oil paintings before Rembrant
...Show more

I didn't say that laws such as supply and demand don't apply to service industries, I said "they do not strictly apply to services, nor to products of intangible worth." Do you know what qualifiers are?

I also didn't say there is no limit on brides, I said "There is little limit to the supply of couples getting married." Unlike land or petroleum, the supply of marriageable people continues to grow. You do understand the difference between little and none, don't you?

I also clearly never said that there was no demand for oil paintings before Rembrandt. I said "When Rembrandt von Rijn first put paint to canvas, there was no demand for his 'product.' ...The high prices commanded today for his works are a factor, not of the supply of paintings in general (there are lots of paintings), but by the fixed and limited supply of his paintings." I cannot believe that you are unable to understand the difference between "his paintings" and "oil paintings," so I must assume that you are deliberately trying to twist what I said.

You have just been placed on my Ignore list.



Dec 01, 2008 at 04:55 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #9 · Business Basics (Pricing)


BrianO wrote:
The laws of supply and demand apply to commodities of limited supply; they do not strictly apply to services, nor to products of intangible worth. In those cases, the demand is created...it's all smoke and mirrors!


Is what you said ... which is wrong.

The laws of supply & demand, and by extension price, apply to every product. Not just "commodities of limited supply". Services are a product, and subject to those same supply / demand laws.

Demand is not created by photographers, they are in fact the suppliers. They can only compete in an existing market where demand is created by customers. They can market themselves to help attract customers, but in the final analysis they simply supply a product.



Dec 01, 2008 at 08:18 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #10 · Business Basics (Pricing)


BrianO wrote:
I also didn't say there is no limit on brides, I said "There is little limit to the supply of couples getting married." Unlike land or petroleum, the supply of marriageable people continues to grow. You do understand the difference between little and none, don't you?


Is what you said, which is wrong.

The number of brides planning to marry in any given year is a statistic which can be determined to a pretty fair accuracy.



Dec 01, 2008 at 08:22 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #11 · Business Basics (Pricing)


BrianO wrote:
You do understand the difference between little and none, don't you?


Is what you said, which is correct.

But only if applied to your knowledge of economics & business.



Dec 01, 2008 at 08:25 AM
prof_fate
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p.2 #12 · Business Basics (Pricing)


BrianO wrote:
We, as photographers, create our own value by creating demand for our services.

We do not create demand. Demand is there with you or without you. You enter the market and unless you can bring in additional people by say offering a new product/service that has not existed before, all you can do is shift clients from another busniess to yours. Assuming the market is not changing in some way (like a new development is being built with 1000 new homes that will increase the market size, etc)

BrianO wrote:
A new photographer who simply copies the price sheet of a competitor ("charging market rate") is unlikely to survive in the business except by sheer luck. The vast majority of new businesses, and photo businesses in particular, will fail in their first year...not due to improper pricing, but due to undercapitalization.

It can take a year or more before one's profit and loss statements are in the black; and if one's balance sheet is also in the red, bankruptcy is inevitable.

If you are truly starting a business, as in investing $100k and opening a storefront then yes, I would agree that undercap is a primary reason for failure as it can indeed take a few years to turn a profit.
But most wedding photogs don't start that way. They go out of business for other reasons - it's a lot more work and less money than they thought it would be, it's not as much fun, there is stress and if they have a day job that can be a huge factor - get transfered, a raise/promotion, etc will both likely end the wedding business.

BrianO wrote:
To start a successful business you must first determine how much money you will need to survive for one fiscal year (including not only current liabilities, but also new liabilities from starting and running the business), then project how much income there will be during the year (by running "what if" scenarios with a spreadsheet, and setting business practices based on those scenarios), and then finally add the projected income to the current and projected assets...savings, equity, etc. (A volunteer from SCORE -- the Service Corps of Retired Executives -- or a similar organization can help one make realistic projections.)

Most of what you say is correct, but first you have to determine is there a demand for your product? If all the current photogs are starving, leaving the business, etc then it's unwise to open a photography business. Simple example is a local camera store. Regardless of your pricing, business practices or capiitalization I don't think you'll succeed. Location matters too - gonna open you store across the street from B&H? You're gonna fail.
You can want to sell anything, but you need buyers to succeed. Are there enough buyers of the product, in general, that you want to sell? Next is to narrow that to your specific product, since it's not a commodity. Gonna sell $5500 weddings? Are there buyers at that price range? Enough buyers? Who's currently serving that market and what will they do when you enter the market?

How many weddings are there in your county is easy - call the courthouse and ask about marriage licenses. Get 3 years data and you'll know the trends. But what about photogs? How many are there, at what price? What is their style, product lineup? Even if you attend bridal shows you won't really know how many are out there, and at what price and all that stuff you need to know.

BrianO wrote:
A good camera and a good eye are essential to success, but they are not enough.


Very true. What most folks don't realize is that 75% of running a business is exaclty that - running a business. Doesn't matter if it's photography, a coffee shop or a laundramat. Only 25% of your time will spent on photography. The rest will be sales, accounting, cleaning the floors, learning and shopping (CS4 or a new lab or marketing materials, etc). Filing and paying bills isn't glamourous but it's part of owning your own business.



Dec 01, 2008 at 10:26 AM
BrianO
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p.2 #13 · Business Basics (Pricing)


prof_fate wrote:
...We do not create demand. Demand is there with you or without you. You enter the market and unless you can bring in additional people by say offering a new product/service that has not existed before, all you can do is shift clients from another busniess [sic] to yours.


Yes, you've got it exactly!

This is what some other people don't seem to be getting, despite my Rembrandt example and other posts.

It's not enough that there is a demand for photography. A successful photographer must create a demand for his or her photography.

Whether through word-of-mouth, advertising, trade shows, etc., or (probably) some combination of the above, if we cannot make people want us over some other photographer, then we are not going to achieve any significant measure of growth in income.



Dec 02, 2008 at 02:00 AM
BrianO
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p.2 #14 · Business Basics (Pricing)


prof_fate wrote:
...What most folks don't realize is that 75% of running a business is exaclty that - running a business. Doesn't matter if it's photography, a coffee shop or a laundramat. Only 25% of your time will spent on photography. The rest will be sales, accounting, cleaning the floors, learning and shopping (CS4 or a new lab or marketing materials, etc). Filing and paying bills isn't glamourous but it's part of owning your own business.


Yep. That's one reason I stopped running or working for small businesses: too much work for too little reward.

For some, the creative outlet and the freedom are reason enough, and it was for me for a time, but now I'm happy working for a large multinational company (the largest in our industry, in fact).

I may change my mind again, but for now I'm happy where I am. If I do get back into professional photography (which possibility is why I'm reading and writing here), it will almost certainly be part-time.

Still...



Dec 02, 2008 at 02:08 AM
Sergio Mottola
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p.2 #15 · Business Basics (Pricing)


i dont see where the big fricken disagreement is.
mike, you're an idiot if you don't think you can set your own prices according to what works for you.

everyone else, you guys are idiots if you don't understand supply/demand/not charging 25k in a 5k max environment.



Dec 02, 2008 at 02:12 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.2 #16 · Business Basics (Pricing)


Sergio Mottola wrote:
mike, you're an idiot if you don't think you can set your own prices according to what works for you.


Have you booked your first wedding yet Serg?

Yes you can SET your own prices .. but unless and until someone buys at that price it is not a market, but simply an asking price .. kind of like a letter to Santa. For Christmas this year I'd like three $25,000 weddings.

From what I've seen of your posts you may make a classic case study of why some potentially great businesses fail to even get off the ground. Which is a pity as you seem a talented photographer. But your business inexperience is good news for me (and other wedding shooters) as we know we won't have to worry about you being our competition.

I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about .. fully half of the participants in this thread seem to disagree with the most basic of all economic laws, supply & demand. If this was an economics or business class class those disagreeing would get a failing grade, yet they hope to see their wedding photography businesses succeed.

There are many reasons to understand basic business principles, and it's really futile to argue the validity of these principles. The laws of supply & demand do exist, and most certainly apply to the wedding photography industry.

Less than 30% of all new businesses are still operating after 10 years, and a quarter of all new businesses will fail in their first year. Photography has an even worse record that that.

I'm beginning to see why.



Dec 02, 2008 at 06:24 AM
tutumon
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p.2 #17 · Business Basics (Pricing)


Sergio Mottola wrote:
mike, you're an idiot if you don't think you can set your own prices according to what works for you.



You need to learn how to be respectful to people. How does it help anybody by being a jerk?



Dec 02, 2008 at 09:07 PM
Marcel VanEerd
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p.2 #18 · Business Basics (Pricing)


I started out all starry-eyed, and quickly learned to look at the real world. What I saw was savvy shooters, certainly not better skilled than I, make more and pull in more weddings. I admit I am not good at whoo-ing people. Small talk makes me borderline nauseous. Still - I'm getting better at it, and more then becoming a better photographer, becoming a better self-promoter is what has enabled me and given me the confidence to start increasing my prices. For '09 I have bumped my prices twice and revised the pricing structure. And I'm going to up my prices again. There's no way I'm going to compete with the Rebel-shooters for their weddings. I may not win the battle of the best paid photog in town, but I'm willing to die trying.


Dec 03, 2008 at 12:18 AM
Sergio Mottola
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p.2 #19 · Business Basics (Pricing)


Mike Mahoney wrote:
Have you booked your first wedding yet Serg?

yeah --- just the other day. awaiting contract in the mail.

Mike Mahoney wrote:
we know we won't have to worry about you being our competition.

you just wait, holmes.


PS - i found your website and your commercial work is really nice.



Dec 03, 2008 at 12:25 AM
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