ksmahgrts wrote:
my initial post was not about any of that stuff. it was about a method for arriving at a jumping off point for pricing. a completely valid and successful method.
Rubbage .. give me your zip code and portfolio and I'll tell you what your pricing should be. And so can every couple who look at you.
Your fatal flaw is which end of the tube you approach pricing from .. you approach from the "how much do I want to make" end, which will give you a price point, but not very often a competitive one. Most shooters use this approach because it's so easy, and usually results in a pricing which is (much) too high for their market. Which is why most wedding photographers fail as a business. Too lazy to even take off their rose-colored glasses.
Better to look at current economic conditions, local demographics, local wedding stats, number of shooters in your area, their pricing, local marketing costs & avenues, etc.
Mike, while you may technically be correct, you're argument in this thread is really just making you look like a douche... though, I'm sure you don't care.
According to ksmahgrts procedure for figuring prices, any photographer just starting out can figure baseline prices without coming on here and posting a thread asking what they should charge.
Besides, her 4th post in this thread kicked so much ass, that nothing you say will make her look bad/stupid
I apologize on behalf of these rude know-it-alls who are niggling about the "details" of pricing, yet can't be bothered to actually read the details of even your first post wherein you say:
"THEN it's simply a matter of looking at your product prices & marking up based on what your market will bear. how do you know what albums cost? how do you know what people will pay in your demographic? also simple. do the work. research it."
There it is in writing. They can scroll back up and take a look for themselves and feel the shame of their foolishness. You've said (or at least strongly implied) from the beginning that what the customer will pay for your particular style and quality. Also implicit in that is that if you do the calculation and things don't add up, it may not be a good idea to rush ahead into business on faith.
Again guys, if you're going to bash someone with an argument, don't let it be one they have already used!
I think everyone should just tell us how much they made this year, and whoever made the most money with the least amount of work, should be the winner! Then, everyone has to listen to them!
At the end of the day, both sides are correct. You have to do your math to know what YOU NEED and where you stand. However, pricing is still affected by what the clients in the area are willing to pay. It's a balancing act.
I am very new to all of this. Second shot/assisted one wedding thus far. I took the OP to give a basic idea how to get a "ball park" figure for pricing for someone starting out. I have been lurking here for about a half a year and the question "what do I charge?" "what pricing do you guys use for your packages?" etc...etc.. seems to come up frequently (read ad-nauseum). I never took the OP as a business plan or catch line for a business seminar. Some of the responses toward the OP seem a bit hostile to someone just trying to help. No reason for this imho. Thanks Ksmahgrts for this post. I really like your work and find your posts valuable, have a great holiday!
Saad Syed wrote:
...you have to do your math to know what YOU NEED and where you stand. However, pricing is still affected by what the clients in the area are willing to pay. It's a balancing act.
Yes, but how much do we really know about what people in the area are willing to pay? And how is that downwardly affected by the general opinions of the photographers in the area? Without weighing the balancing act more heavily to the personal need we err too much on the side of underpricing; we're unable able to (happily) stay in business, as well as contribute additional negative load to the local industry.
Before I looked at the realities of my business+living expenses and factored only what I *thought* clients were willing to pay, I averaged six weddings per year $3500 each. I justified my unsustainable business approach on having a second job.
Then in 2006 I had a business epiphany which at its core involved fully realizing this basic equation. Its just the starting point, the first step to motivating oneself into becoming a better marketer, businessperson, service provider, and artist. Instead of determining my pricing based on what I think I'm worth, I ignored the self-judgemental artist voice as a factor. (The same voice that rationalized what I thought was the geographical pricing limitations, btw.) Going with the hard facts, and against the nebulous winds of my artistic insecurities, my minimum package went to $4000 with a yearly goal set to 20 weddings.
I changed my entire work/life situation as a result of a paradigm shift, one that simply started with changing the question of "how much should I charge?", to "what do I need to make?" I invested in WPPI, workshops, seminars, and faced the music.
Yesterday I personally delivered two $15k wedding packages to clients, to bring to their grandparent's home for Thanksgiving. I earned more in two weddings than I did in all of 2006.
I still have a long way to go. And its not a panacea, it won't work for everyone. Not everyone can up their business and photographic game when their real-world pricing demands it. Those folks will stay at the lower end, which is fair and fine. But it will work for those who can pair their talent with their common sense. After all, we really don't know *anything* about clients we haven't even met yet. Perspective changes everything.
"in all seriousness, and with all due respect..." seeing how much you spend, and attempting to have an income that meets or exceeds this... i fail to see the novelty in this, besides it being a slight reversal of reality for most photographers -- especially today, most will have to adjust their lifestyles to fit their incomes, and have less of an ability to adjust their income to fit their lifestyles (as this "method" suggests they do).
I agree with maurice in that, while it is a balancing act, you have to look at the perspective. Granted there are heavy hit areas where the economy just can'y support 3,000 dollar contracts. However, there are plenty of communities that have peopel spending 10G's on photographers and 70G's overall on a wedding - even in economic times like these. It's up to you to brand yourself.
Also, the priority has to be (if you want to do this full time) your needs.
"question of "how much should I charge?", to "what do I need to make?"
This is my second year in business. Our first year, we shot a wedding for free, then two for 600, and then we jumped to 3,000 and higher. It was a risk and a long shot, but I'm happy that we did. It really helped me set the stage for the coming year in terms of pricing.
Peopel can pick up on attitude. You can build a car that goes as fast as a Ferrari 430, however, you'll have a hard time selling it for as much as the 430. Why? Branding, attitude, perception... Ferrari is more than a heap of metal that goes fast.
Know what you need, know what you want, and then do what you have to do to get it.
runner301 wrote:
What if all my dollars needed to survive are provided by another job...what do I charge then?
So what is giving up your free time worth to you? Time not spent with your family, doing the things you enjoy? Or, another way to look at it, what does your "real job" pay an hour. Shouldn't you get at least that out of your photography? Maybe even more!?
This basic premise is how I have been working most of my pricing. I've calculated how much I want to make, divided that by the number of weddings I want to work and used that as my goal per wedding. I'm not booking that many at that price, but I'm working towards that best case scenario with every move forward.
Wow .. I see the proponents of the “secret recipe” pricing model are a little testy these days, probably due to their slowing business and lower incomes. Understandable.
I see they are about as creative with name calling as they are in their business models .. “crackhead, douche”. Very classy.
It's something written by people who don't know the difference between "they could care less" (which means they DO care) and the correct expression "they couldn't care less" (which means they don't care a bit, since there is nothing less than zero).
if there's a new-fangled rubbish and garbage combo out there i want in on it!
Then, everyone has to listen to them!