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Archive 2008 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please

  
 
himcheong
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p.1 #1 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Hi guys

i need a bit of advice. i was asked to shoot some nightclub photos this weekend.
i mainly shoot landscape and wildlife so i am kinda a novice when it comes to club
photography. Anyone mind sharing some of their experience?

i suppose i would be better off using a low light lens,
so i am just wondering what focal length do i need?
i'm currently using a 40D + 24-105mm which i suspect it is too slow
in a club

any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated
thanks



Nov 20, 2008 at 02:35 PM
timhpark
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p.1 #2 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Can you rent a 24L?

Tim



Nov 20, 2008 at 02:40 PM
frank kayser
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p.1 #3 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


The 24-205 is a bit slow - it would be nice to have an f/2.8 or faster - don't sweat it.

The 40d does well in the higher ISO ranges.

I will give you my "general formula" for shooting "available light" at concerts/shows...

Determine your own tolerance for image noise - at which ISO does noise become unacceptable, or rather, what ISO can you stand. Of course, that is dependent on your personal taste, and your post-processing drill - whether you use something like Neat Image or Noise Ninja, for example.

Set your camera to the highest ISO you can stand. That will give you the most latitude in aperture and shutter speed.

Shoot RAW. That will allow you to make the most adjustments to color balance, and if need be, exposure after-the-fact. Stage lighting is neither "normal" nor consistent in color or intensity. Any type of white balance shooting, in my opinion, is fruitless. In post processing, set the scene to what you remember the best. If you attempt to neutralize skin tones, or to 18% grey, the scene will start looking very odd, indeed.

The dynamic range on stage is often higher than the camera can capture. RAW will also give you the best highlight and shadow recovery, if needed.

Most of the time, I find myself shooting wide open, or nearly so, just to keep the shutter speed up. If your lenses can stand it, shoot wide open - if not, find out where you find the lens to be acceptably sharp, combined with enough DOF for the shot you envision.

So that means, shooting in Aperture Priority mode - and let the shutter speed fall where it may. Watch it in the viewfinder -

Imagine your shot, and crop in-camera as close to that vision as you dare. Any after-the-fact cropping will just increase noise.

Know your composition. Anticipate. If your plan is to take a shot, and crop it later into something wonderful, it ain't going to happen. (none of us here on FM do that, do we? ) Plan your shot, and execute. Timing is critical.

Know what is important in the shot - and make sure that is exposed as well as you can. Blown-out details are a no-no. But don't be too conservative, either - lightening the photo in post - even RAW - will dramatically increase noise. Reading the histogram is tricky - lights and specular highlights will seem to indicate a lot of overexposure. Fakery, fakery, fakery! Same thing - there is so much black - non-detail black, the histogram will be climbing the left side. Don't worry too much. The histogram will look like a big smile with one tooth on the bottom - that "tooth" is probably your subject exposure - look at that. Expose for that and then...

Chimp early and often. That is, look at the LCD often to judge exposure of the picture. A learned skill, and tricky because of where the LCD brightness is set. Practice, Practice, Practice.

Again, crop in the viewfinder as close as you dare. The less black background, and the less bright light, the more reliable (or should I say readable) the histogram becomes.

If you choose to spot meter, know EXACTLY how that works, or you will be even farther off than if you use Evaluative and exposure compensation.

If you possibly can, use a tripod, or at least a monopod. Shutter speeds are usually quite borderline.

Expect a lot of throw-aways - shaking, subject moving, microphone in the face, shadows, bad expression, whatever. Experience is key - shoot as many gigs as you can - critically evaluate what went wrong, what was right - make a mental note of what to avoid, and what that you did right. Do more of the latter.

Now, if you can use flash, that is another thing all together. I'll let someone else handle that one...

Practice! Evaluate!

Let's first look at the "rule of thumb" for hand-holdability. That "rule" states that one can expect to handhold a shot at a given shutter speed that is related to the focal length of a lens. The recommended minimum shutter speed would be 1/focal length of the lens - so if you were shooting a 100 mm lens, the rule says one can hand hold at a shutter speed of 1/100 of a second, but not slower. If you were shooting a 28mm lens, the rule says you could use a shutter speed as slow as 1/30 of a second.

Most concerts are shot with some type of telephoto - somewhere between 85mm and 200mm. So according to the rule, you shouldn't be shooting any slower than 1/85 second for the one, and 1/200 second for the other. A long way from 1/8 second!

The rule of thumb is based on what we deem acceptable sharpness in a normal print - Take the print larger, and you will need a faster shutter speed. All is based on the "Circle of Confusion" (one of my favorite terms in photography!). Bob Askins has many articles on the subject of sharpness, and shutter speed - look up the terms on www.bobaskins.com - great stuff there.

Even if you were to use a tripod, you may still experience blur at 1/8 second - but that could easily be your subject moving! One can handhold at lower speeds than the rule of thumb - it takes a very good technique for holding and bracing. The DSLR adds another thing one must overcome - the mirror slapping up and down - the type of motion that it is seen in pictures taken between 1/30 of a second down to about 1/2 second - (a tidbit to remember for macro photography, too) So not only are you shaking, your subject moving, and the camera is giving you the blues too.

So the last thing I'll address here, is there blur even with 1/500 second - first, are any shots sharp? How about during the day? Normal light? A lens is generally at its worst when wide open - it will have more visible defects, a more shallow depth-of-field that will put the autofocus to the test. Most lenses will be sharper when stopped down a stop or two - but that means the shutter needs to be open even longer to make up for the light lost due to the lens being stopped down. As the lens is stopped down, every lens will have greater depth-of-field, thus tolerating a less-than-perfect autofocus hit.

The key here is there are compromises - and low light, and active performers on stage, combined with telephoto needs make for a tough set. Find someone to help you with holding your camera - how to lock it in place. Practice, practice, practice. For some, available light is very tough - others find other types of photography tougher - i.e., wildlife, or birds on flight.

Just remember, your camera takes neither good or bad photographs - you do. Equipment can help some, but it is technique and practice that will be the difference between good and bad shots. An instrument does not make the musician - any more than a camera makes a photographer.

Final note - shooting RAW is just like shooting JPEG - the difference is in post processing - you may wish to lurk about that forum for a while - read a lot of the old posts there - a lot of your questions can be answered there - there is also a lot of PP using Photoshop and/or Lightroom on the web - time to sit down and read there, too.

good luck,
frank



Nov 20, 2008 at 02:42 PM
JeffMD
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p.1 #4 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Ignore the above post as that won't work in a night club. Your camera is fine, and the aperture of you lens is fine, but what might hurt you is that your 24mm (39mm in full frame) is not going to be wide enough unless the night club you are shooting in is almost empty. I shoot with a D700 and you need 20-28mm full frame range, so for your 40d your going to need a 10-22mm Canon or a Tokina 12-24mm.

There are several techniques, one is dragging the shutter. Set your camera on iso 200 or 400 set the aperture to F8, manual focus to about 1 meter, and set the shutter in the 1/2 sec to 1 second range. Basically if you shoot with no flash the face of the person should be totally dark but the ambient light in the background will be exposed properly (assuming a pretty dark club as most of them are). Then turn your flash on and let the ttl flash metering get the exposure for the person you are taking a photo of. I did this for 2 years with a Pentax K10D and a Sony A700.

The second technique since I'm spoiled by the D700 and it will autofocus with zero problems in complete darkness, I just set it to F4, 1/5 - 1/30th of a second, autofocus, 24mm wide angle, iso 3200 to 6400. It's cheating, because the camera is so good.

Shooting raw or jpeg is your choice and will have more to do with your confidence in your skill then what will be the ultimate in image quality.



Nov 20, 2008 at 03:39 PM
Jim Rickards
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p.1 #5 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


You say you have been asked to shoot some nightclub photos.

Please elaborate on what it is you will be shooting. ie - patrons at the club, an act at the club, a band at the club, a group of people attending the club, action on the dance floor or outdoor shots of the club etc.



Nov 20, 2008 at 03:49 PM
Jack Balthasar
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p.1 #6 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Good info above.
Here's a couple more thoughts:
By Club, I assume you're shooting patrons and bartenders, not a band. RAW is a great idea/essential, and so are many other ideas above.
I think you should hope for a flash. Do you have one and are you good with it? Check to see if that's acceptable. If so, I'd use a Stofen or whatever that is. I like to bounce, but that usually doesn't work in a club.
4.0 is slow, yes, but it is also a good Av setting to get pics of groups of people. You don't want one person in ficus and someone else oof.
I would focus on getting some fun shots / shots of people having fun. They probably want lots of pics of cute girls. Get some of the bartenders in action, etc.
Go to some websites of similar clubs and see if they have photos that you can view.
Good Luck!



Nov 20, 2008 at 04:08 PM
aFeinberg
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p.1 #7 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Lots of random advice. Things that have worked (no flash) is shooting in manual and averaging an exposure for lighting (it is consistent for a bit then changes). I usually shoot wide or almost wide open (read: 4.0 or better). I always hand hold and if necessary brace against a wall or railing or w/e. Chimp esp in the beginning of the night to get an idea of where the exposure should be.

rock out!

aF



Nov 20, 2008 at 04:44 PM
jprezant
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p.1 #8 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Good god. There's an explosion of advice here.

I shoot every week for a local nightlife mag. Most of the stuff involves grabbing shots of people having a good time.

Important bits of info:

1.) If you are trying to get faces...or portraits if you will in the club
- You need to be using a flash (99% of the time)
- If you don't want any blur..keep that shutter speed 1/60 or faster (generally)
- My routine...f/5.6, 1/60th, ISO400, flash on eTTL, shoot to kill

2.) If you're trying to get the club scene...lighting and all...
- Kill the flash
- Bump your iso like Frank suggested
- Find a pole to lean against
....or you can do as Jeff suggested and drag the shutter with the flash in eTTL

....if you want really sick pictures...go wide. 14L? Get CRAAAAZZZZYYYYY with some off camera flash and long shutter speeds



Nov 21, 2008 at 02:46 AM
JeffMD
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p.1 #9 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


jprezant wrote:
- If you don't want any blur..keep that shutter speed 1/60 or faster (generally)
- My routine...f/5.6, 1/60th, ISO400, flash on eTTL, shoot to kill



1/60th is way to short. You will not capture any of the ambient light.

Shutter relates to blur depending on your ambient light. If you are in darkness the flash if freezing your subject (remember the flash is freezing your subject at about 1/2000th of second).

Here's and example, F8, ISO200 1 second exposure, 24mm (full frame);




Nov 21, 2008 at 07:49 AM
paulhodson
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p.1 #10 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Jeff Stevens wrote:
Ignore the above post as that won't work in a night club.


Bit harsh after the effort put in to posting it.



Nov 21, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Walter Koch
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p.1 #11 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


paulhodson wrote:
Bit harsh after the effort put in to posting it.


+1

Walt



Nov 21, 2008 at 01:20 PM
jprezant
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p.1 #12 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Jeff Stevens wrote:
1/60th is way to short. You will not capture any of the ambient light.

Shutter relates to blur depending on your ambient light. If you are in darkness the flash if freezing your subject (remember the flash is freezing your subject at about 1/2000th of second).

Here's and example, F8, ISO200 1 second exposure, 24mm (full frame);

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2819132719_f49844e5c9_b.jpg


I said that those were settings you could use if you were just trying to capture the people, and not so much the environment. And if you notice on the man's ear in your photograph, the ambient light is bleeding through. That is because of your long shutter speed. Something you need to worry about is that after the flash "freezes" your subject, ambient light will still be able to contaminate that information.



Nov 21, 2008 at 01:23 PM
himcheong
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p.1 #13 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


wow, lots of useful advice here
now i don't even know who should i listen to now...
i think i'd try out all of them, i bet there must be one that's gonna work for me
thanks alot guys



Nov 21, 2008 at 04:24 PM
Spencer_Fu
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p.1 #14 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


For the record I use Jeff Stevens' technique of slow shutter speed to expose the environment and TTL flash for the subject lighting. I haven't shot in a night club before but I shoot dances/concerts/parties with similar lighting and that is the technique I use.

http://spencerfu.com/images/event/20081109-IMG_0926-SpencerFu_full.jpg

http://spencerfu.com/images/event/20081109-IMG_1110-SpencerFu_full.jpg

http://spencerfu.com/images/event/20081109-IMG_1715-SpencerFu.jpg

More of my stuff here:
www.spencerfu.com



Nov 21, 2008 at 08:25 PM
elphoto
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p.1 #15 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


http://nightclubpictures.blogspot.com/2008/01/nightclub-photography-tips.html


Nov 22, 2008 at 07:12 PM
lurker
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p.1 #16 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


here is some of shots i took of Paul van Dyk when he was is in town
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/671418/0#6003251
depending what effect you want
all done with out flash, high ISO
key it to anticipate the light play in the room

http://lurker.smugmug.com/photos/339667208_PvAFb-O.jpg

http://lurker.smugmug.com/photos/339667297_vBLgz-O.jpg



Nov 24, 2008 at 12:49 AM
bryanlindsey
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p.1 #17 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


Nice examples, everyone.

Makes me feel like I'm partying with all of y'all after a couple of drinks!



Nov 24, 2008 at 03:35 PM
bill9000
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p.1 #18 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


paulhodson wrote:
Bit harsh after the effort put in to posting it.


I agree... bit harsh!!!! - it's comments like that that make nice people not post in forums... after they get slammed for trying to help someone out!



Nov 24, 2008 at 11:49 PM
Cableaddict
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p.1 #19 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


bill9000 wrote:
I agree... bit harsh!!!! - it's comments like that that make nice people not post in forums... after they get slammed for trying to help someone out!


+1 - especially since the advice was as valid as any other.


The problem is that the OP was not specific as to what he needed to shoot, nor the type of results he was after. (as Jim pointed out.) Each approach given, above, is surely valid for different situations.

One thing I'll add: If you're hand-holding, use mirror lockup. You subjects won't be moving around too much, and shutter speed will often be right on the edge. Every little bit helps.


And Jeff- I love your method (I have pretty much been doing this myself, but didn't really understand why I was getting the results I did until reading your post)
-but a little less coffee before posting next time!



Nov 25, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Spencer_Fu
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p.1 #20 · Nightclub photo. Advice Please


lurker wrote:
here is some of shots i took of Paul van Dyk when he was is in town
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/671418/0#6003251
depending what effect you want
all done with out flash, high ISO
key it to anticipate the light play in the room

http://lurker.smugmug.com/photos/339667208_PvAFb-O.jpg

http://lurker.smugmug.com/photos/339667297_vBLgz-O.jpg


Hmmm. I am really digging this ambient light only stuff. I will have to give it a shot next time for shots of the overall scene. Probably won't work so well with individual people shots though.




Nov 25, 2008 at 03:09 AM





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