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Archive 2008 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

  
 
brainiac
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p.9 #1 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


thrice wrote:
The 19 Elmarit-R ROM, 28 Elmarit-R ROM, 35 Summicron-R, 50 Summilux-R E60, 90 Apo-Summicron-R, 100 Apo-Elmarit-R, 180 Apo-Summicron-R and 180 Apo-Elmarit-R are all superior (IQ-wise) to canon's nearest equivalents.


Have you actually tested and used for real work a 180 f2 APO-Summicron-R and a Canon 200 f1.8? I have owned both. In fact, I am currently loaned the 180 f2 by the person I sold it to, and I use both regularly. Optically the Canon is superior because it matches the Leica lens in every respect but has more 3D effect. I prefer the way it draws as a result. I am certainly not saying that all Canon lenses are better than their Leica equivalents. But Canon make some very excellent lenses as well as some quite poor ones, and the myth which we so often hear, that the Leica versions are automatically superior to anything produced by Zeiss/Canon/Nikon/Olympus/Minolta/Pentax/Cosina isn't based on actual user experience and open minded testing, it is based on brand prejudice. Some people like a flat dreamy rich-coloured look with no 3D effect. Others don't. There are lenses that are mountable on Canon, if not produced by Canon, which challenge the alleged superiority of each of the lenses you list, even though they are all fine lenses.

Here's a little reminder of what the Leica 180 f2 is up against in the Canon 200 f1.8. 1Ds3 at iso 3200:
http://cyberphotographer.com/1ds3/drjosef/drjosef_lowrez.jpg
unscaled crop:
http://cyberphotographer.com/1ds3/drjosef/drjosef_crop.jpg



Jan 15, 2009 at 06:07 AM
robsteve
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p.9 #2 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


brainiac wrote:
Here's a little reminder of what the Leica 180 f2 is up against in the Canon 200 f1.8. 1Ds3 at iso 3200:
http://cyberphotographer.com/1ds3/drjosef/drjosef_lowrez.jpg
unscaled crop:
http://cyberphotographer.com/1ds3/drjosef/drjosef_crop.jpg



One of the limits with the Canon is the close focus distance is really not that close. With the Leica 180mm you could get a shot almost as close as your crop. The Canon is also almost as much money used and is no longer serviced by Canon.

I have owned the big Canon glass and it is on par with the Leica equivalent. The 300mm f2.8 IS may actually be better. When I owned both the 300mm f2.8 IS and 400mm f2.8 IS, the only place were Leica was superior was in the 400mm range and f2.8. By f3.2 the Canon was sharper. As for the drawing styles, the Leica 400mm gave the more pleasing images, with the Canon 400mm a little harsher.

Robert





Jan 15, 2009 at 06:49 AM
thrice
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p.9 #3 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


I would also say the Canon 85/1.2 rivals the Leica 90AA aside from it's heavy longitudinal chromatic aberration.

Canon's tele's are very good though. I was not contesting that they make good glass.

Canon's only lenses covering 19mm are the 17-40 and 16-35, maybe at working apertures for landscapes they come close, but definitely aren't superior. The 21 Distagon is better in sharpness and CA with inferior distortion correction, higher succeptibility to flare and slightly worse colour. The nikon 14-24 is magnificent but it's huge and difficult to mount filters. Both the Distagon and nikon are almost double the price I've seen the Leica for.

The Leica 100/2.8 APO Elmarit-R is widely accepted to be the best macro lens in existence from a sharpness/bokeh/colour balance perspective, correct me if I'm wrong? Canon's 100/2 and 100/2.8 Macro USM are not in the same league.

The latest Summilux vs Canon 50/1.4? Well on Colour and bokeh the Leica trumps it, on sharpness I haven't owned a Canon 50/1.4 to test. I don't acknowledge the Sigma 50, but if others want to that's fine. The Nikon 1.4D and 1.4G both seem to have coma for days.

The 200/2 and 200/1.8 might be better than the Canon but I have not seen or done a direct comparison so I guess you having used them would know better than me brainiac. I do have a voigtlander 180/4 APO-lanthar I'd love to pit against all other lenses at this length at f/4.0 and up



Jan 15, 2009 at 07:01 AM
telyt
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p.9 #4 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


brainiac wrote:
... the myth which we so often hear, that the Leica versions are automatically superior to anything produced by Zeiss/Canon/Nikon/Olympus/Minolta/Pentax/Cosina isn't based on actual user experience and open minded testing, it is based on brand prejudice.


Where are you hearing this myth? Do you have any objective evidence to support this claim?

BTW Richard I'm not saying that your 200mm f/1.8 isn't sharp, but it is missing at least one important performance feature, a close minimum focus. A lack of support from Canon also would make me reconsider relying on it for paying work. This is another area where very few manufacturers are "like a Leica".



Jan 15, 2009 at 07:51 AM
Conner999
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p.9 #5 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


The debate that never wants to end...


Jan 15, 2009 at 08:56 AM
ulrikft
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p.9 #6 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


I actually try to find out where to start on leica lenses, now that leitax has a nikon/leica bayonet (Got one already, great service and shipping time!) I want to test Leica long term, to see what all the fuzz is about. I have a rokkor 58 1.2 so i suspect that a 50 1.4 would get little use, most of the wides are uncompatible, so I guess a 90 2.8, 90 2.0, 80 1.4 or 100 macro are the best way. Hard choices


Jan 15, 2009 at 10:42 AM
robsteve
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p.9 #7 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


I would try the 90mm Summicron f2 as a cheap starting point. For more money and more of a wow factor, the 100mm APO macro is hard to beat.

The problem with the 90-100mm range is that most companies make a decent lens at this focal length. For example, the Nikon 80mm f1.4 is nearly as good as the Leica, probably better if you factor in AF and no manual stop down. You really need to get into the APO and ASPH lenses to get a Leica lens that is much better in this range than the competition.

The older 90mm Summicron though is a good deal and would give similar results to the 58mm Rokkor when shot wide open, and then it sharpens up a lot when stopped down. It has nice out of focus areas too, which has been a complaint about the Leica 90mm f2.8.

Robert



Jan 15, 2009 at 12:09 PM
thrice
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p.9 #8 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


I started with the 90 and 35 summicrons. Got the 90 APO Summicron cos that focal length works for me, gonna have to sell the non-apo soon. Am in the process of acquiring a 19 elmarit and 100 apo-macro-elmarit. I agree with the 90 as a good starting point as far as bang for buck. If you have a lot of buck, then I hear the 28 ROM is worth owning.


Jan 16, 2009 at 07:05 AM
ulrikft
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p.9 #9 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


I have seen quite a few 90-summicrons on ebay, they have buy-it-now prices from 430-500. I have seen them go for 300-330 here, should I just wait for one to come up here?


Jan 16, 2009 at 07:19 AM
Mike Hatam
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p.9 #10 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


My two main cameras are the 5D Mark II and the M8. I shoot them both regularly. All of these posts trying to compare them head-to-head to declare one the "winner" are missing the point - these are two different tools, for different purposes.

For low light, I grab the 5DII. For large-print landscapes, I grab the 5DII. For sports/action, I grab the 5DII (since I no longer have a 1D3) and put on a long auto-focus lens.

The M8 can be a frustrating camera to use. The camera body itself is far behind the Canon and other current cameras in terms of general technology and features. It takes a while to be able to use an M naturally, but once I reached that point, my "keeper rate" went way up.

But there is something about the look of the files from the M8 that is just "different" from the Canon files. The M8 files have a certain glow and beauty that I cannot easily reproduce with the 5DII. When I capture an M8 file just right, it's generally an image that has that "look" that I just can't capture with the Canon.

For that reason, for portraits/candids in natural light, I prefer the M8 over the 5DII. The M8 is also a far more portable system, and is thus my main travel kit and street kit.

My advice would be to use an M8 as a complimentary system to a DSLR, but not as an "only system". If you could only get one, I suggest the DSLR, as it is far more versatile. But if you can afford it, then adding an M8 system to your DSLR system will give you the opportunity to capture some beautiful images with a certain "look" that your DSLR won't get.

Here are some examples of M8 images that have that "look" that I cannot easily capture with my Canon system:


28 Cron @ f5.6:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/071014-120949-M8-160.jpg


75 Lux @ f1.4:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/071027-172522-M8-160.jpg


75 Lux @ f1.4:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/071104-105604-M8-160.jpg


75 Lux @ f1.4:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/071104-122009-M8-160.jpg


50 Lux @ f1.4:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/080106-190450-M8-640.jpg


28 Cron @ f5.6:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/081022-070048-M8-160.jpg


50 Lux @ f2.8:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/081022-152119-M8%20-640.jpg


28 Cron @ f5.6 (Alcatraz at night):
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/081022-174251-M8-160.jpg


28 Cron @ f5.6 (Alcatraz "Operating Room" - HDR):
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/081022-181052-M8-160-BLEND4.jpg


28 Cron @ f8:
http://www.hatamimages.com/Images/M8/081119-144513-M8-160.jpg




Jan 16, 2009 at 08:22 AM
convert
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p.9 #11 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


Mike Hatam wrote:...My advice would be to use an M8 as a complimentary system to a DSLR, but not as an "only system". If you could only get one, I suggest the DSLR, as it is far more versatile. But if you can afford it, then adding an M8 system to your DSLR system will give you the opportunity to capture some beautiful images with a certain "look" that your DSLR won't get.


+3
Impressive Pics !



Jan 16, 2009 at 08:47 AM
Anden
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p.9 #12 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


telyt wrote:
Where are you hearing this myth? Do you have any objective evidence to support this claim?
.


A myth would not be a myth if it could be proved...




Jan 16, 2009 at 09:32 AM
brainiac
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p.9 #13 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


>Here are some examples of M8 images that have that "look" that I cannot easily capture with my Canon system:

I must be a complete Philistine ;-)

Nice pictures, Mike.



Jan 16, 2009 at 10:09 AM
justruss
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p.9 #14 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


Mike, nice shot of the Sutro Baths. One of my favorite places when I lived in SF. Used to watch the fisherman scurry across to the big rock when a wave momentarily created an opening on the beach.


Jan 16, 2009 at 10:15 AM
justruss
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p.9 #15 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


I don't see the "look" you're talking about though. Nothing stands out* except a good control of light and nice lenses-- but I wouldn't be surprised to see similar shots from a Canon or Nikon in the right hands. I guess I'm a philistine too... oh well, back to Kafka.

*I mean as far as "the look," not as far as great composition.



Jan 16, 2009 at 10:19 AM
thrice
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p.9 #16 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


The blues and reds are what stand out for me, and are what I find most disappointing from canon's CMOS sensors. Even with hue shifts and saturation control I often struggle to get the reds and blues to look 100% natural.


Jan 16, 2009 at 10:24 AM
Mike Hatam
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p.9 #17 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


You know, looking at my photos in this thread, the "look" isn't apparent, so I get what you guys mean.

I guess a downsampled jpg loses some of the magic.

On my 30" screen, I can see it. In prints I can see it. It's subtle, but there is a different look to the Leica files than the Canon files.

It may be the difference between CCD (with no AA filter) vs CMOS (with AA filter), or it may be the lenses, or something else, I don't know (or really care).

The best way that I can describe it is that the Canon files have more "sharpness" (microcontrast), and a certain "harshness" to them compared to the more delicate and "soft/glowing" (but in a pleasing way) look of the M8 files.

I think the M8 "look" also produces different color hues than the Canon. In some cases, I prefer the Canon colors, and in some, I prefer the M8 colors. When the scene has subtle and delicate hues (such as the Sutro Baths above), these tend to render in a more pleasing way on the M8.

Sorry I'm not better able to express these subtle differences in the jpgs I showed here, but I can certainly tell the files apart when I'm working on my display and within LR2 or ACR.

And as I said before, I really like both of these systems. They both produce wonderful files that I can do a lot with. They are both excellent, but different.

Mike



Jan 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM
brainiac
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p.9 #18 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


Mike, I know the differences that you mean, and I agree with you that they are inevitably less visible at web resolutions. My experience with a few Leica lenses, both M and R is that rich colour is one of the design goals. The Leica digital cameras also seem to be designed to give rich and subtle colour. The lenses also often seem to be designed to control contrast in some way. Some people love that look, and that's why many who love the Leica 'look' defend it so vehemently.

Personally, I prefer natural contrast and 3D effect to accurate colour. We are less accurate at seeing colour detail, as opposed to luminance, and the success of black and white photography as a genre shows that colour accuracy is not always important, whereas I think light and shade is more often important in a photo. Some black and white images have a tremendous sense of 3D and reality, after all. I think your beautifully taken shots that you kindly shared with us here, even at web size, illustrate a slight lack of 3D effect in some cases, and that, for me is also part of the Leica look. However, while the lenses provide rich colour, the cameras don't seem to keep it very accurate, perhaps because of white balance, or some other issue. For example, in your barn shot the sky seems a little too green, and the colour of the grass just looks wrong to me. In a shot like the beautiful one of the operating theatre, inaccuracy doesn't matter at all, and the richness of the colours work brilliantly. But in the portrait of the old man, the skin colours seem quite unreal.

Rich colour, lots of detail, and lower contrast seem to epitomise the look of the Leica lenses to me. The cameras don't seem to be perfectly accurate with colour, but the pattern of colour shifts often gives a pleasing Kodachrome-like look that is instantly attractive. When I said I didn't see the look, I wasn't being entirely honest. I do see aspects of the trademark Leica look in your beautifully taken pictures, but I am pretty sure I would enjoy them more if the colour was more accurate and if they seemed more 3D and present.

I would add though that I agree that Canon cameras don't always provide accurate colours either. In particular, purplish and greenish skintones often seem too far separated, and I always shoot with a custom profile loaded into my camera which shifts the yellowish and ruddy skintones towards each other.

Only the photographer can decide whether she likes the Leica look, or doesn't, and whether it is worth the cost.



Jan 17, 2009 at 05:27 AM
ISO1600
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p.9 #19 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


Mike, those are the best M8 shots i've seen posted on FM. Keep it up!


Jan 17, 2009 at 06:57 AM
Wilfredo
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p.9 #20 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching


Mike,

I agree. I have a 5D, but I don't get the same B&W quality that I get from the M8. To me it is very obvious. Great shots, sure wish I could get my hands on a 50mm lux (I have budget constraints).

Cheers,
Wilfredo+




Feb 10, 2009 at 10:48 PM
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