Archive 2008 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
brainiac Offline [X]
p.12 #1 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
dasrocket wrote:
You pick up a camera and shoot with it. If the process feels right, the camera is right for you. If not, it's wrong. simple. The technical details are inconsequential.
On many occasions I have had to struggle with equipment that didn't feel right but was the best thing for getting results. Using the most comfortable camera doesn't guarantee best results. As photographers, often shooting to a brief, we have to take that into account, and sometimes use very inconvenient gear. For example, I hate lugging my 200 f1.8 to jobs, and its size and weight make it a bloody nuisance to use, but no other gear can get the results it gets in low light. For me, the pleasures of using an M8 are far outweighed by the limited results, which I think can easily be surpassed using a 450D.
p.12 #2 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
So you fall into accountants category. Or you could realise that there's no such thing as a 200/1.8 for the M8 so that example is moot.
M8 is not ideal for... sport, extreme low light without a tripod that requires low noise results and macro.
It's perfectly adequate and superior to a 450D for:
Landscape
Street
Architecture
Portraiture
Fashion
photojournalism
And above all ergonomics and haptics are vastly superior to the 450D. It's a different tool for a different job, and the job it's designed for it does better than most cameras and that is being compact and a well made manual focus digital rangefinder. If you don't like using rangefinders that's fine, but it's not the cameras fault it doesn't suit your preferred ergonomics, it's a horses for courses situation. If you don't like painterly lenses, the latest ASPH designs aren't, neither are the ZM lenses (except the 50/1.5 sonnar which has buckets of character). There's a lot in the Leica M system to suit people who don't need enormous noise free low light enlargements. The IQ is excellent if you're not peeping in most situations, brilliant build quality and it's a digital rangefinder! I'm pretty sure Leica want to be making a full frame digital rangefinder, and you should know the technology is the issue, not the will.
Jun 11, 2009 at 12:01 PM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.12 #3 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
thrice wrote:
Or you could realise that there's no such thing as a 200/1.8 for the M8 so that example is moot.
I learn something every day. My point was that all gear is inconvenient to some extent, and a photographer isn't always better off to choose the gear that's nicest to use. Sometimes you have to think about the results. That's the problem with the M8: no matter how good it feels, its results are outperformed by current entry-level DSLR's.
>And above all ergonomics and haptics are vastly superior to the 450D.
The LCD monitor, the weight/density, the access to controls, liveview, changing memory cards and batteries... the list of individual ergonomic advantages of the 450D over the M8 is extensive. Then there are all the shortcomings of rangefinder focussing to add to those, and other serious problems too. Don't make me list them again.
p.12 #4 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
dasrocket wrote:
You pick up a camera and shoot with it. If the process feels right, the camera is right for you. If not, it's wrong. simple. The technical details are inconsequential.
I have to disagree somewhat. Sometimes the camera that feels right just doesn't return the goods. It's a combination of 'feels right' and 'looks right' that matters.
p.12 #5 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
brainiac wrote:
I learn something every day. My point was that all gear is inconvenient to some extent, and a photographer isn't always better off to choose the gear that's nicest to use. Sometimes you have to think about the results. That's the problem with the M8: no matter how good it feels, its results are outperformed by current entry-level DSLR's.
The LCD monitor, the weight/density, the access to controls, liveview, changing memory cards and batteries... the list of individual ergonomic advantages of the 450D over the M8 is extensive. Then there are all the shortcomings of rangefinder focussing to add to those, and other serious problems too. Don't make me list them again....Show more →
LCD monitor is for review, the M8 does pixel-to-pixel 100% zooming in for review, show me a Canon that does that.
You won't find much sympathy from me that you find rangefinders harder to focus, for their intended purpose I find them far more accurate and useful for focusing, although I suppose I don't use autofocus or any native canon glass so maybe you'd get more sympathy on the Canon board in that regard.
The weight/density are fantastic, reassuring in the hands, with practically any lens the size will be less than the 450D with an equivalent lens. It's a brass camera, some of us still appreciate manufacturing finesse and lifetime durability. With any M lens on the body the camera is still not too heavy to carry around the neck (often only a wrist strap is needed) and the overall volume is much less than the 450D.
I think for you, who views the camera merely as a tool, the digital M wouldn't be a good choice but for someone who enjoys rangefinders (their target audience surprisingly) and who are in it for the experience of photographing not as much the result; the build and experience of shooting a rangefinder far outweighs using a light plastic fantastic slr. The only ergonomics I'm really concerned with is how easy it is to take a shot and how it feels.
The M8 is not designed as a value oriented camera, so let me squash that argument before it arises.
Sorry to do this to you but could you please show an example where the M8 is outperformed by a crop dslr in any of the fields I listed before?
I haven't seen it mentioned before but forgive me if you have already stated it but how long did you use an M8 for?
p.12 #6 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
thrice wrote:
some of us still appreciate manufacturing finesse and lifetime durability.
Are you serious? I think Michael Kamber put any ideas of the M8 being durable, well made, well thought out or anything else positive to rest with his M8 tales from Iraq.
p.12 #7 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
still much better than a 450D.
Edit: And Michael Kamber's article bashed the use of the M8 as a professional photojournalism tool in wartorn iraq! It isn't weather sealed so I probably wouldn't recommend it as such, and it has some quirks I'm fully aware of, but I don't see why you Twok, and Brainiac jump into every leica thread to bash their gear so religiously?
p.12 #8 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Dude, I've not jumped in every Leica thread. I just don't see the point in shooting an M8 over an M6 or basically a 450D as braniac put it. I mean I'd rather sketch pictures in my own blood than use either a 450D or an M8, but I'm not hating on ALL Leicas, just the M8 specifically.
p.12 #10 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I have had only very short experiences. But things like having to spent time when wanting to change iso, having to change grip when changing shutter-speed etc, but I guess that is just part of the charm
Jun 12, 2009 at 08:06 PM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.12 #11 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I'm not interested in bashing the M8, I just think that a thread about switching to it is a sensible place to mention some of the shortcomings of the camera. It's an expensive investment and anyone thinking about buying should have her eyes wide open. In particular she should consider...
- price/performance, with image quality less good than a Canon 500D
- prospects for the system, i.e. when will a better sensor and full frame arrive
- the need for IR-cut filters
- frustrating ergonomics e.g. card/battery change, awkward controls and menus, sluggishness etc.
- poor performance above 640 iso
- reliability issues e.g. spontaneous camera death
- absense of useful features such as liveview, image stabilisation, and high-def video
- shortcomings of rangefinder systems, i.e. no d.o.f. preview, no off-centre focussing, no horizontal detail focussing, parallax, lenses obscuring viewfinder, focus-recompose inaccuracy, no telephoto, no reliable macro, no field of view accuracy, no AF, false positives when focussing railings/bricks/stripes/patterns and so on.
There are clearly a number of M fans who regret jumping in to the M8, based on extensive experience with the camera.
I have only used M8's for a few hours, but that was long enough for me to realise that it wasn't going to compete with much cheaper alternatives. I have plenty of experience with a very wide range of 35mm and medium format gear over 25 years, so it doesn't take me long to assess the usability of a camera.
When the M8 first came out it was competing with the 5D, if anything. Today it has to compete with much cheaper upstarts like the 450D and 500D and the various entry-level Nikons and Sonys which have pushed past the M8's abilities in a number of ways while the M8 has stood still.
The longevity of its brass body seems inconsequential. A plastic body and an up-to-date sensor would make it a much better camera if the quality of photos matters.
p.12 #12 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
thrice wrote:
Edit: And Michael Kamber's article bashed the use of the M8 as a professional photojournalism tool in wartorn iraq! It isn't weather sealed so I probably wouldn't recommend it as such, and it has some quirks I'm fully aware of, but I don't see why you Twok, and Brainiac jump into every leica thread to bash their gear so religiously?
I don't want to take side "for or against" the M8 - but isn't this exactly what made the Leicas famous in the first place?
p.12 #13 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
Part of Kamber's problems with the M8 were subjective, i.e., he wanted the wide-angle selective focus with the 24mm f/1.4 L he was accustomed to. His review was written before the 21mm Summilux-M was announced or available. More of his objections were resolved with newer firmware. Others who have used the M8 in Iraq and other war zones did not reach the same conclusion Kamber did.
p.12 #14 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I have a really nice M8 (black) and 16-18-21, 28 Cron, 50 Lux and 75 Cron for sale at a very reasonable price (some of it's in the F/S section). PM if interested.
PS - people who bemoan the M8 either have never used one, didn't know how to use the one they had, or are repeating stuff they've read from others who've never used one or knew how to use the one they had. It's an outstanding tool, but if you expect it to act and perform just like a DSLR you won't be happy.
The only reason I'm selling is I'm overstocked with cameras right now. But I will truly miss it.
p.12 #15 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
I've used SLR's and now DSLR's side by side with Leica M's for years, and the silliest comment that gets regularly repeated by Braniac, ad nauseum, is the focus-recompose accuracy issue.
With wide angles and standard lenses, where this technique is often used, it seems to me that this is never a problem. Whatever slight inaccuracy may occur by the recompose is more than compensated by the greater accuracy of the rangefinder focus over SLR wide angles in the first place.
I consistently get greater accuracy with Leica RF focus with 35's and 28's than I ever get either with auto or manual focus SLR's.
As for the horizontal focus issue, well, a solitary horizontal line is not so frequent in real life, and when it is encountered, it takes but a split second to tilt the camera slightly off axis and quickly achieve accurate focus. Try that with the 5DII on autofocus with any lens - it's hit and miss while hunting - especially in only relatively low light levels.
Sorry Braniac, much of what you say about the M8 short comings are true and deserve to be pointed out. But these two points just make you sound like you are not used to using rangefinders.
Jun 15, 2009 at 01:33 PM
brainiac Offline [X]
p.12 #16 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
wolfloid wrote:
As for the horizontal focus issue, well, a solitary horizontal line is not so frequent in real life...
I call it "horizon".
...it takes but a split second to tilt the camera slightly off axis and quickly achieve accurate focus.
...and if you had to do this to focus with a 5D's centre AF point it's focus system would be even more derided than it is. Remember, M is the camera for the perfect moment.
>Sorry Braniac, much of what you say about the M8 short comings are true and deserve to be pointed out. But these two points just make you sound like you are not used to using rangefinders.
The movement of the focal plane behind off-centre subjects is very demonstrable, particularly with wide aperture wideangles, which are indicated by the M8's limited iso. It's visible on DSLR's too, but there you have the option to focus an off-centre subject. I find these two factual shortcomings as limiting as many of the other issues I mentioned. You are happy to work round them. That's your choice, but they're worth pointing out.
p.12 #18 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
wolfloid wrote:
I've used SLR's and now DSLR's side by side with Leica M's for years, and the silliest comment that gets regularly repeated by Braniac, ad nauseum, is the focus-recompose accuracy issue.
With wide angles and standard lenses, where this technique is often used, it seems to me that this is never a problem. Whatever slight inaccuracy may occur by the recompose is more than compensated by the greater accuracy of the rangefinder focus over SLR wide angles in the first place.
I consistently get greater accuracy with Leica RF focus with 35's and 28's than I ever get either with auto or manual focus SLR's. ...Show more →
It IS an issue if you have a habit of shooting fast glass at wide apertures and relatively short distances. Like say candid shots indoors, or portrait work like Ulrikft's stuff. It's much less of an issue with wider lenses, but in the 35-50mm range it's very definitely an issue.
p.12 #19 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
mawz wrote:
It IS an issue if you have a habit of shooting fast glass at wide apertures and relatively short distances. Like say candid shots indoors, or portrait work like Ulrikft's stuff. It's much less of an issue with wider lenses, but in the 35-50mm range it's very definitely an issue.
The RF patch system has been around for 50 years; for a system used primarily for journalism over a long period of time, this focus "issue" really is blown out of proportion here.
p.12 #20 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching
dasrocket wrote:
The RF patch system has been around for 50 years; for a system used primarily for journalism over a long period of time, this focus "issue" really is blown out of proportion here.
It's not really an issue once you hit about 3m but it is an issue for those of us who often shoot closer than that.
Remember, the 'reportage' shot with a Leica in its heyday was often shot with an f3.5 lens. Which wouldn't have this issue. really fast glass didn't appear until relatively late in the RF's heyday (considering the heyday to be 1930-1960, maybe 1965 and the faster than f2 lenses really didn't show up until the early 50's).
