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Archive 2008 · 15% Gray Card??

  
 
Craig Yannuzzi
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p.1 #1 · 15% Gray Card??


I think this is the correct forum. If not please let me now.

So in what seems to been a never ending quest for accurate white balance I stopped in Calumet today and asked for a gray card. To which the salesperson responded, "film or digital?"

"digital", I replied. Somewhat perplexed by the question.

He then went on to explain that an 18% gray card is only used for film white balancing while a 15% gray card is what is needed for digital white balancing. This was the first I heard of a difference so I took his advice and purchased a 15% gray card.

That brings me to this evening where a google search directed me to this article by Thom Hogan that states properly calibrated dslr sensors expose for 12% gray??

Can someone help shed some light on this? Is there a difference between film and digital gray cards? Does it matter 12%, 15%, 18%......

Will I get accurate WB with a 15% card??

I'm confused

Thanks!

Edited on Nov 04, 2008 at 05:08 PM · View previous versions



Nov 03, 2008 at 09:11 PM
Mark Sisco
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p.1 #2 · 15% Gray Card??


I don't think the % Gray has anything to do with proper white balance. Matter of fact, if you read your camera manual I bet it says to use a white card!

18% vs. 15% vs. 12% has to do with matching proper exposure from what I understand. I can't explain which is accurate and why, but I'm pretty sure it's an exposure/meter thing, not a white balance thing.

Proper white balance is dependent upon the target being completely color neutral and without specularity in order to be consistent in various lighting conditions. Take a look at the Whibal and the Robin Myers card.




Nov 03, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Wayne Fox
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p.1 #3 · 15% Gray Card??


mark says it pretty well.

The 18% grey card that has been produced for quite some time was designed for use with film. Film responds to light differently than a camera sensor, and while this card will work quite well, technically it is not completely "neutral" when photographed with a digital camera.

The digital version of the grey card is probably more about neutrality than it is about density. There probably is some ideal grey percentage out there, but I'm not sure a difference of a few % points of grey will affect the white balancing of your file. Certainly you are better off not using a dark grey, and if you get too white you risk blowing it out.

Part of the confusion is that the original grey card was primarily introduced as an exposure calculating tool, though it was also used to aid in color. Now the grey card has mainly become a white balance tool, not an exposure tool.

If you are photographing it for white balance you probably aren't reading it with your light meter to calculate your exposure. (your histogram is a much better tool to determine if you exposed correctly).



Nov 04, 2008 at 03:02 AM
RDKirk
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p.1 #4 · 15% Gray Card??


All of the above, and more.

First, you have two things you're measuring: Exposure and color balance

Exposure:

Film has a tonal range that can be varied at either end (rather, the response slope can be varied) by processing. Because the ends are variable, the "anchor" point is at the middle of its response slope. That can also vary--what matters for any given photographer is that he selects one and uses it consistently in his total work flow.

It mostly will depend on how the photographer is measuring his or her exposure, and greatly on what meter he's using. Many used a reflected light meter with a gray card--and there has been a raging controversy for decades as to whether the standard is 18 percent or 12 percent.

Part of the problem is that the standards document is copyrighted and must be purchased at a considerable cost...so not even many of the experts really know what it is. It even seems the official spokespersons for the manufacturers don't even know for sure.

Part of it, too, is because manufacturers don't actually calibrate their machines using a gray card, but by a calibrated light source, so we don't have anything from them that translates their calibrated light sources into gray card equivalents.

The difference between 18% and 12% is a third of a stop, so for people processing their own black and white, it was nearly indistinguishable anyway, and questionable most of the time even with slide film.

When I got into digital, I was able to determine that Sekonic meters and Canon camera meters, at least, are calibrated to the equivalent of a 12% gray card (shucks--I had always been in the 18% camp in my film days).

That is, when photographing an 18% gray card with my Canon DSLRs, I have to put the spike about 1/3 stop to the right of center to create a JPEG that correctly reproduces the card at its actual density. If I were photographing a 12% gray card, I would center the spike.

Moreover, that exposure with the gray card spike to the right of center corresponds with the exposure given my under the same conditions by a Sekonic incident meter or a Sekonic spot meter reading that same gray card.

Color Balancing

Theoretically, the tone of the gray card should not matter. To the camera, "gray" is merely black or white with more or less light upon it. Or black and white are merely gray with more or less light upon them.

Where it makes a difference is when you are doing color balancing in-camera. At the extreme ends of the color-balance sensor's response capability, white balancing can be jeopardized by over or under exposure that may throw one or two of the components of the light (red, green, or blue) beyond the capability of the sensor. So you want to color balance by a tone of gray that is safely within the response of the sensor even with significant over or under exposure.

That tends to be a gray shade slightly lighter than 18%--but if you expose it close to accurately, it's not a problem with 18, 12, or 15%

It's also when doing color balancing in camera that you have to worry to some extent with the color response of the coloring materials in the card itself. You want a card that reflects all colors of light in the same response pattern that our eyes accept as white.

This is not, however, as great an issue as card manufacturers would have you believe in most cases. If you're dealing solely with common light sources--ordinary tungsten, daylight, shade, electronic flash--all cards are gray enough. If you're doing critical work under florescent or sodium vapor or other such, then you could be a bit more concerned.

If you're color balancing by merely including a neutral reference tone in the scene and click-balancing during processing, then nearly any gray card is fine. Heck, even a concrete street or sidewalk is okay. You're just selecting something that you want to appear neutral gray in the photograph. Color response is irrelevant in that case, and the tonal density is nearly irrelevant; you don't want solid black or solid white.

I've been using a plastic 18% gray cine card from these folks:

http://www.thedopshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=37

I like the "Fotowand Color Grey Card" because those 5cc color patches very easily show me what color cast might exist in the image.



Nov 04, 2008 at 11:13 AM
cgardner
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p.1 #5 · 15% Gray Card??


Warning: Long and rambling essay on gray cards and digital capture vs film.

The guy who makes the WhiBal cards did a good bit of testing and claims that a lighter shade of gray than 18% produces a more neutral WB in the technical sense of reproducing the card correctly, but you need to keep in mind that setting neutral WB is a process control aid rather than a desired perceptual result for pretty pictures of real stuff.

If shooting RAW setting Custom WB does not affect how the image is captured. What you control by setting WB in the camera by any means when shooting RAW is how the images from the camera first hit your eyeballs PERCEPTUALLY on the monitor. We set custom WB they have a consistently neutral baseline WHEN FIRST SEEN.

First impressions are important in color because the eye will adapt to the monitor just as it does to the scene in real life. It is possible to just shoot one frame with a gray card, click correct it in ACR, then batch paste the WB change to the rest of the files and get the same net result, but it requires more steps. If custom WB is set on camera the files are balanced and ready to view from a neutral baseline immediately.

Which method of WB works best is an workflow issue. Sometimes its impossible to do either a custom WB or put a card in a test shot. The next best approach is to just pick the closest pre-set and stick with it. The worst possible approach for process management is AWB - auto white balance, which resets WB for each shot based on the assumption the brightest areas are neutral, which isn't always the case.

Having a known baseline is a fundamental principle underlying any form of process control: to control any process you need to first define what is "normal" to identify the exceptions to the norm. In most processes there is a range of deviation from the norm which will still be considered acceptable performance. Color perception is no different. Its not absolute, but more of a moving target affected by context and other factors.

In the digital realm the process control assumption everything hinges on is that a neutral gray object has RGB values which are equal. That's why its important to start the process control process at the camera capture stage with a test target known to reflect RGB equally over a wide range of lighting conditions (i.e. metamerically accurate). If you have a file with equal RGB values but it doesn't look neutral on your screen, because the file is correct you can then deduce your screen must not be calibrated correctly. Once you get your monitor so it is displaying color neutrally, you would expect a photo of a neutral gray card captured with your camera to appear neutral on the screen. If it doesn't then you can deduce the camera did not record it with neutral WB due to the way WB was set on the camera to match the ambient light.

The gray card reference is needed because human color vision is very adaptive. That's why you don't see the green bias in the light under trees, and will not see it in the photos you capture under the trees either on the screen if you stare at it long enough for your eyes to adapt. But if you also have a known neutral gray card in the photo you could measure the RGB values and correct them to make them neutral. By correcting the card all the other colors are corrected the same way and the skin tone under the trees will change from the dull grayish green captured accurately by the camera (relative to the light of clear sky at noon) to the healthy pink we expect caucasian skin to be perceptually. Setting custom WB off that same green light under the trees will provide an editing program like Photoshop with the information it needs to correct the color back to neutral automatically, without the need to click on a gray reference in each photo. It allows one to shot a reference frame of the card and have all the photos in the same light look neutral when first opened for evaluation.

Why don't we notice the skin is green in the photo taken without custom WB? Since skin comes in many different shades we don't get hung up perceptually on what exact color the skin is or the tree behind the face for that matter. We assume a caucasian face falls in a range of pink tones and accept it as rendered as falling in that range. The green bias alters the color relationships and will make the lighting on the face seem dull, gray and flat. Green + magenta = gray. At the same time the green bias also makes the foliage look more saturated is more appealing. I wish I had a dollar for every outdoor photo I've seen which had a green cast the photographer and a dozen others giving C&C just didn't see because they didn't know that gray dull skin was the clue that the problem was a green cast in the WB. Add a bit of magenta to the overall color balance and the fog is lifted and the contrast looks normal along with the color.

Perceptionally, unless we know the person and have a memory of what color their skin actually is or compare the actual photo reproduction to the skin most will accept a rather wide range of skin color as being normal. Even in person the skin will look different, depending on the light, the color of the clothes they are wearing and the background surrounding them. Color is a moving perceptual target and aiming to hit some theoretical bulls-eye often can miss the more important holistic objective: making a photo seem real.

Making a photo seem real is mostly about getting memory reference colors correct. If you were to look at a photo of a car in a photo on a white background and the paint had a slight reddish cast your eyes would decide whether or not the car is actually red or not by first keying off the white background and then off things you assume to be neutral on the car, such as the black tires or the reflections off the chrome. If the background is neutral white your initial assumption would be the car is red, until you happened to notice the tires look reddish. Then your brain will figure out the car is actually neutral but the WB of the photo is off. Conversely if the car was perfectly gray, but the WB of the background lighting was slightly warm and reddish, your eyes adapting to the expectation that the background is white will perceive the car as having the opposite bluish hue.

Perceptually color is moving target. Technically neutral color set per equal R=G=B values on a gray card is seldom what looks best perceptually for real life scenes. 9 out of 10 humans would think a portrait with slightly warmer WB would look more natural. In some situations where the ambience of the original scene triggers the emotional reaction (e.g. the "golden hours") you wouldn't want to set custom WB at all, instead setting the camera to "daylight" WB so the camera records the ambience relative to high-noon, which is what your brain is using as its perceptual frame of reference.

The main function of using a gray card for custom WB is so all photos have the same baseline for WB when opened and seen for the first time on screen. So even if a gray card used as a reference isn't perfectly neutral in the colorimetric sense, it can still be used as standard frame of reference providing its color isn't too far away from neutral. So given the choice of paying $160 for a target that gets the color neutral with 99.9999% accuracy or $20 for one that does it with 98% accuracy which is the better choice? The extra 2% in colorimetric accuracy in the card matters little in practical terms because your eye upon seeing the photos set with either using custom WB will adapt immediately and not see the small difference. It would only be noticed if there was an image of the actual card which you were able to click correct. Would one be better than the other perceptually? That would depend a lot on what was in the photo.

Many ask "If its white balance why do you want to use a gray card?" The reason you want to use some shade of gray rather than white is because with white it is possible to overexpose just one or two channels of the three which would skew the WB. Gray puts the card down in the range were an automatic exposure system will render it down in the middle of the dynamic range of the camera. But if you simply change to M mode on the camera you can reproduce the card as any tone from pure white to pure black by controlling the exposure hitting the sensor. I suggest doing just that in one of my tutorials as a way to understand how a histogram works: LINK
http://super.nova.org/TP/HistogramTest.jpg

The "tonal map" of the histogram response for my 20D above was created by bracketing exposure of a gray card (after setting custom WB off it) to reproduce it from "paper" white to as dark as my camera f/stop range allowed. That helps me interpret what tone the right edge of the histogram represents and also told me what my actual real-world camera DR is: about 6-1/2 stops of detail I can see.

So if you think a 12% or 15% reflectance will produce better WB just expose the 18% card a bit more manually or with + EC and it will be reproduced lighter! As long as the card is neutral the light actually hitting the sensor will be the same, no?

I use a "belt and suspenders" approach: Set custom WB off the card, then shoot the card in the scene when possible. The first step sets the WB, the second allows me to verify perceptually and with the eyedroppers in Photoshop that it was set correctly. The ability to actually verify WB off a target in the capture is where using a gray card differs from the "magic coaster" ExpoDisk approach. The ExpoDisk, pointed at the light source from subject position (i.e. like an incident meter) can do a very good job of setting neutral WB, but unless one also has a gray card to put in the scene there is no way to verify WB was in fact set correctly.

I'm a process control oriented, baseline kind of guy so what I do is first put my camera into daylight mode outside, or tungsten or fluorescent inside (depending on dominant source) BEFORE shooting the gray card to set WB. That isn't necessary to set custom WB, but gives me a visual reference when editing how much different the actual light was from the pre-set. Then immediately after setting custom WB I shoot the card again. That shot when checked in Photoshop should have equal RGB values and not change color if clicked with the "snap to neutral" eyedropper tool. The comparison of the two frames helps me to understand, in retrospect, what the color ambience of the actual light was relative pre-sets and that helps inform my editing decisions on whether to leave the color technically neutral or take it warmer or cooler perceptually while editing.

As for the origins of the Kodak 18% card and its historical use? That is something which I've researched.

The gray card exposure technique was developed back in the days of film negatives and simple averaging meters. A photographer would do a test, metering off the gray card with the averaging meter, then adjust the ISO setting of the meter until the indicated shutter/aperture readings produced shadow detail on the negative. Once the film ISO on the meter was adjusted that way (i.e. calibrated to the shadow detail) the all the photographer needed to do to get the film exposed correctly was to hold out the card with one hand and meter it with the other. It is important to understand that getting the highlights correct on a B&W print wasn't controlled by exposure at all, but rather by how long the negative was developed. Longer development meant more negative density which made tones on the print lighter.

A guy named Ansel Adams, building on the work of others at the time, developed a very systematic way to predict what negative development time would be needed for any range of contrast in the original scene to fit it onto the fixed range of a #2 print paper. The entire Adams zone system process was based, at the time it was developed, on that average meter reading off the card.

As far as I can determine from anecdotal accounts the 18% card actually had its origin in graphic arts where the white and gray sides were used as exposure targets for halftone dot placement in halftones and color separations. Litho film is either clear or solid black and a gray scale target becomes a form of exposure meter. As exposure increases more and more lighter tones get reproduced as white. The reason the 18% value was chosen was lost to the ages, apparently even within the corporate memory of Kodak which made them, but some it seems that there was some numerical relationship between the number of stops difference between the white and gray sides, and from my experience shooting line shots and halftones on graphic arts cameras that grey value is the target value used when shooting a line negative to ensure proper litho negative density in the white areas of a page and for placement of the 50% dot when making a halftone. So based on my experience in graphic arts anecdotal references about its origin in photo lithography makes sense because back in the 1920s when it is said to originate there were no other controls available other than a test target and your eyeballs. That was still largely the case in the early 1970s when I did conventional halftones and separations.

Regarding the use of the Kodak card for color evaluation it wasn't used for that purpose in the early days of color separation because unlike RGB color you don't get neutral gray when C=Y=M. Instead old timers balanced color with a gray card by knowing the relative percentage dots of C, Y, and M would make the card look the same with the paper and ink being used. Since direct eyeball comparison was being used it really wasn't critical that the card be absolutely neutral, only that the color separation reproduced it accurately. Its only when color management entered the realm of doing all the manipulation numerically with complicated math that its important to start with a reference which does reflect equal RGB wavelengths. Electronic color management starts with the assumption that all gray values are neutral (i.e. the L axis of Lab space).

In fact it wasn't until recent years that Kodak made its cards neutral, causing the makers of some other white balance devices costing 5x more to claim theirs were better. The "Kodak" cards are actually now made under license by Tiffen, the filter maker and have been found to be neutral. While cheaper their down side is that they are prone to damage and color shift as they age, so as a long term investment one of the plastic ones are a better choice. Search B&H for Gray Card and you'll find a wide price range. My approach when faced with the choice of $20 vs $60 piece of plastic with a raw material cost of 50 cents is to first try the cheaper one first, in part because I just view the custom WB off the card as a starting point.

You'll notice when shopping for gray cards you'll see "warm" and "cool" cards. Electronic WB had its roots in video before still photography and it was a common practice to use a WB target with a blue bias to create a warmer tone in the video. When a cooler look was desired a card with a yellow bias would be used. Setting the WB off the standard target ensured the color would be consistent for all the different takes of the same scene: wide, medium, close-up.

Ansel Adams popularized the use of the Kodak 18% gray card in still photography, but for exposure. I learned photography using his system and have a very good understanding of how it works and how the perceptual and technical aspects relate to today's digital realm.

Adams picked the Kodak 18% card because it was the only standard reference commonly available. It was already in wide use as described above in the first paragraph, and Adams liked it because perceptually the 18% tone seems to falls between white and black. Most think zones = f/stops but they are actually an arbitrary division of tones on a print, not f/stops in the scene. Read Adams "The Negative" to understand what the zones represent and why he picked 18% gray to anchor the system.

Legend has it that when Kodak realized that 12 - 13% would be a more accurate middle tone for its gray card and considered changing it Adams threw a tantrum, went to Rochester and bullied Kodak into keeping its card at 18% so as not to upset his zone system which was based on Zone V = 18% gray reflectance = middle of the perceived tonal scale. If you buy Kodak card set (Publication R-27) and read the instructions you'll find they recommend adding a correction factor to a gray card reading to obtain correct exposure.

You can use a gray card to calibrate a hand held meter for digital. For example with a Sekonic L-558 spot meter if you read a card in flat light and set camera per the meter the card will be reproduced as some shade of middle grey and the spike on the histogram may or may not fall directly in the middle. If you place a white towel next to the card may or may not be exposed correctly. But by adjusting the meter compensation factor you can adjust the meter so when you meter off the card either the spike falls dead center or alternately so the the highlights in the towel are exposed optimally as in this baseline test shot:

http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_FlatLight.jpg

But metering off a gray card to precisely control highlight exposure makes about as much sense to me as scratching my belly if my nose itches. What makes more sense is to just meter the towel with the spot meter then find the amount of exposure compensation needed to reproduce it correctly. In other word use the EC adjustment function of the hand held meter to move the default reference point for exposure from middle gray to textured white. Doing that would require EC of of 2-1/3 to 3 stops (depending on sensor DR) but once compensated that way the L-558 owner could simply point the meter at a textured highlight in the scene and read the shutter/aperture needed correct exposure off the readout without all the mental gymnastics of interpolating off the middle tone.

The same approach could be used with a camera spot metering. Once you know how much EC is needed to make a spot metered textured highlight reproduce correctly you could dial in the necessary amount of EC, point the spot at the brightest textured highlight and get correct exposure. The advantages of a hand held meter is that it is more precise, the disadvantage is that it can't take in account factors like lens flare.

Getting good results with digital is simple: just don't blow the highlights. Shadow detail? If you get the highlights exposed correctly the shadow fall where the limited range of the sensor puts them and the only way capture more shadow detail is to: 1) add more light to the shadows (i.e., reflector or fill flash), or; 2) make bracketed exposures on a tripod and blend them with masks in Photoshop.

Histograms provide valuable feedback on when over / under exposure is occurring but not where. I find its much simpler skip all the fancy metering and obsessing over what to measure, how to measure it, and how to interpret the results and simply use the most valuable exposure guide ever invented, the OVER EXPOSURE WARNING in the playback. It really makes exposure a no brainer because you need to be blind not to see when and where the over-exposure is causing clipping. When you get the exposure correct in the highlights using feedback from the OEW, then the left side of histogram will reveal if shadow detail is being lost (if the graph is running off the left side. Correct exposure looks like this on the ends of the histogram:

http://super.nova.org/TP/TowelGary.jpg

What the histogram is doing in the middle really isn't critical at the capture stage because the middle tones are easily moved around with the middle slider of Levels or similar controls to change the internal contrast to compensate perceptually for how a camera records them differently than we think we saw them in person. For example, below is an ambient only backlit scene exposed for detail in the highlights of the white towel. But due to the limited range of the sensor the middle tone and shadows are darker than see by eye: it is technically perfectly exposed in the RAW file but look perceptually incorrect and underexposed. A big reason for that perceptual vs. being there in person is because in person when your focus shifts in person from foreground to background your eyes will adapt to reveal more shadow detail. That will not happen to the same extent when looking a the dark area of a photo unless brighter areas are masked off: why the convention of putting white border on a dark photo are really not a good idea perceptually.

http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_Backlight.jpg

So I tuned on high speed flash and let the camera do its magic:
http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_FlashFill.jpg

The highlight are still the same, but the fill in the foreground renders the scene more like my eyes perceived it. The background is still dark because the fill didn't reach there, but as in person, when focused on the chart in the foreground the background is tuned out perceptually and the fact it has no detail isn't perceived as a defect. In terms of making the chart the center of interest the darker background makes it contrast more and is actually a good thing ascetically. The foreground may seem overexposed perceptually, and I wouldn't disagree. That is just on turning on the flash set to FEC =0 rendered it in the test series. But when just the card is selected and the histogram examined it shows the foreground is, technically speaking, correctly exposed or even a bit underexposed:

http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_FillHisto.jpg

The point of showing that exercise here is to demonstrate that the optimal technical parameters (i.e., perfect histogram or color balance) often will not produce and accurate perceptual rendering of the scene as by eye. There is very little which can be done to affect the appearance of the captured scene when it is being captured as with the zone system, so digital is mostly "Expose for the highlights - add flash to add shadow detail as necessary, then fix everything else in Photoshop".

The rude awakening negative film / print shooters got when switching to digital was the last part; finding they needed to learn a new skill set akin to learning how to make a photo print in the darkroom: icc color management and process control in Photoshop. Most don't realize the photo lab has been fixing their WB and over-exposed files: a color neg. can tolerate nearly 2 stops of overexposure before the color layers get out of whack.

Those who previously shot transparencies before digital were far more disciplined and conditioned to the digital workflow. Transparencies require the same precise highlight exposure, and it was necessary to put filters on the lens when shooting to correct the color temp. A pro shooter's color correction filter kit was analogous to a gourmet chef's collection of knives. If anything a person accustomed to shooting chromes with cc filters found digital far easier.

There is now a generation of camera users who never shot film, who from my perspective try to make the process seem far more complicated in nearly every respect from exposure to color than it really needs to be perceptually. I'm not anti- control. Just the opposite in fact. But I'm pragmatic and experienced enough to know the point where technical obsession doesn't yield any practical tangible results on a perceptual level.

I've found by testing that when the highlights in a textured white object start to clip the file is 1/3 stop overexposed. So if shooting a portrait I'll have the subject hold a white terry rag -- the rag rather than a card allows me to evaluate texture - raise exposure until the rag starts to clip in the OEW, then back off the flash power or aperture (if shooting manually) or FEC (if shooting ETTL) by 1/3 stop. Using the OEW and a white reference point really makes correct exposure a no-brainer even on white backgrounds:

http://super.nova.org/TP/WhiteBGTowelCard2.jpg

So for a very simple workflow, set custom WB off gray card when possible and appropriate to scene context to create an automatic neutral baseline for comparison, and then include that same card in test shots when possible. If you can't set custom WB, then at least try to capture a shot of the card or some other object in the scene you perceive is neutral. If you can't do either pick daylight, tungsten, or fluorescent; not AWB which changes shot-to-shot and offers no consistent baseline.

You may not actually want the photo to wind up technically neutral but it will give you a consistent baseline for evaluating the color by eye. Unless you have the tools to precisely measure color numerically don't obsess over numerical nuances of WB, instead trust your eyes. Try different workflows and pick the ones which offer the best results with the most convenience. It's all a matter of convenience and cost vs quality, otherwise we'd all be shooting with 8 x 10 view cameras.

Understand the difference between when a file is correctly exposed on the highlights and how at the same time the range of the sensor can make it appear underexposed perceptually in high contrast lighting. For exposure just rely on the over-exposure warning and don't clip anything except specular highlights and light sources such as street lamps in the photo. Buy a TTL flash and a bracket and learn how to use flash to seamlessly correct the fact your sensor is incapable of recording with a single exposure.

In the post processing realm learn to use Levels first. Its a wonderful diagnostic tool which reveals what was actually captured in the photo and can make changes to the overall contrast in the darker middle tones very simply. Is it the best tool in Photoshop to do that? No. But if you start with an understanding of what it does on a cause and effect level to change technical parameters in a digital capture to match perceptual expectations you will better understand how and why the more sophisticated techniques do the same thing, albeit with more precision and less "bruising of the fruit" especially if you use 16-bit ProPhotoRGB as your working space



Nov 04, 2008 at 02:07 PM
RDKirk
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p.1 #6 · 15% Gray Card??


There is now a generation of camera users who never shot film, who from my perspective try to make the process seem far more complicated in nearly every respect from exposure to color than it really needs to be perceptually.

This is for sure, and all the more ironic because digital photography really is much more technically easy than film (that is, if you're processing and printing it yourself rather than just "sending it away").

Folks, go back and read again what Chuck had to say about exposing digital for textured white. Unlike with film--where the "anchor" tone was in the middle of its response range--the "anchor" tone for digital is "the brightest tone that must retain detail."

Chuck seems to be the only guy who has figured this out, but he's dead on the money.



Nov 04, 2008 at 05:02 PM
Craig Yannuzzi
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p.1 #7 · 15% Gray Card??


WOW! Thanks guys for taking the time to respond to my post! I'm going back to re-read them.


Nov 04, 2008 at 05:08 PM
HerbChong
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p.1 #8 · 15% Gray Card??


expose to the right means that.

Herb...

RDKirk wrote:
Folks, go back and read again what Chuck had to say about exposing digital for textured white. Unlike with film--where the "anchor" tone was in the middle of its response range--the "anchor" tone for digital is "the brightest tone that must retain detail."

Chuck seems to be the only guy who has figured this out, but he's dead on the money.




Nov 04, 2008 at 05:19 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #9 · 15% Gray Card??


Herb:

The "expose to the right" proponents advocate pushing exposure so the lightest tone in the scene is reproduced just below clipping to maximize the fact that digital captures more data points and tonal granulation (even gradients) in the brightest tones. So if the darkest tone in the scene is a medium gray, the ETR practitioner would intentionally overexpose it and make if off white in the camera capture, then edit it back down to its normal tone in Photoshop. The risk I see in doing that is the fact most scenes contain specular highlights and subtle highlight detail around those specular highlights which are critical for creating the perceptual illusion of 3D in a 3D photo. Overexposing middle-tones "to the right" will blow out the that subtle detail.

What the "white towel" method assumes is that even a black cat on a coal pile will have highlight details such as the specular reflections in the fur which define its 3D shape which are critical. The towel is just an easier to visualize proxy for those highlights. My goal is to preserve that detail even if it sacrifices shadow detail because in most full range image shadow detail is not critical to delivering the message. In fact too much shadow detail can be counter-productive if it distracts from the primary center of interest.

The way many people use HDR is a similar case of fascination with technology trumping perceptual and compositional commonsense. By putting more detail out of shadows than would be perceived by eye an HDR photo creates the same perceptual sea of sameness as flat lighting. HDR used effectively compensates for the limited range of the sensor, just pulling out the 3-4 stops of shadow detail the highly adaptive eye sees in person but the 7-stop camera sensor can't capture. When HDR starts to show more detail that seen by eye it starts to seem fake. That's useful for some creative purposes, but doesn't create a realistic facsimile of reality.

In the mid-80s one of our USIA magazines did a feature on Ansel Adam's work and I got to make the dual-black duotones from about a dozen of his more famous originals. Having read and applied his technical books and his read his biography I think the real genius in Adams work was his understanding of the role of human perception, with all its quirks, in the reproduction process. He realized how the eye adapted to the brighter parts of a scene, very much like a digital in auto mode, causing a loss of perception of shadow detail. The eyes have a finite dynamic range too. So when people looked at his photo of Half Dome and other iconic sights they would see in his prints more detail in the shadows than by eye. Adams had a fine sense of balance so there is not so much detail that the photo looked fake.

Being smart and lazy I can also appreciate that the zone system was born because Adams shared those same traits. Its more fun to take photos than make prints in the darkroom. The zone system is based around all prints being made the same way: #2 paper, exposed so film base +fog = maximum black the paper could produce with the least amount of exposure. If one exposed and developed the negative to fit the 3.0 density range the #2 paper could reproduce, making the prints became pretty much a no-brainer and a job which could be delegated to assistants. Using the overexposure warning on the camera to correctly expose a digital file to the highlight detail is a similar "no-brainer" solution to a process some seem to find complex and throw increasing levels of technology at. Unless there is a new quantum leap in sensor technology I don't see sensor range ever matching that of an outdoor scene, so learning who to use fill flash so its not really obvious fill flash was used is a useful skill too




Edited on Nov 04, 2008 at 06:38 PM · View previous versions



Nov 04, 2008 at 06:23 PM
RDKirk
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He realized how the eye adapted to the brighter parts of a scene, very much like a digital in auto mode, causing a loss of perception of shadow detail. The eyes have a finite dynamic range too.

Yes. To the physiology of the eye, a blown highlight is equal to a blown retina, so the eye protects itself by essentially sacrificing shadow detail and closing down the aperture as necessary to keep the highlights within a physicallly safe range.

So we have lived our lives seeing preserved highlight detail and blocked shadows, rather than vice versa.



Nov 04, 2008 at 06:38 PM
Wayne Fox
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RDKirk wrote:
Chuck seems to be the only guy who has figured this out, but he's dead on the money.


The thread topic is about the difference between grey cards and why there are ones for film and ones for digital. In current practice grey cards are rarely used to calculate exposure but are used to set white balance.

Understanding proper digital exposure is an entirely different topic, and it is common knowledge that the principal no-no is highlight clipping. Those that have evolved from film to digital compare digital to transparency film ... don't blow the highlights. Whether you are an advocate of ETTR or not, most of us have "figured this out". But this really didn't have much to do with the question of the OP, so we didn't bring it up.

cgardner wrote:
The "expose to the right" proponents advocate pushing exposure so the lightest tone in the scene is reproduced just below clipping to maximize the fact that digital captures more data points and tonal granulation (even gradients) in the brightest tones. So if the darkest tone in the scene is a medium gray, the ETR practitioner would intentionally overexpose it and make if off white in the camera capture, then edit it back down to its normal tone in Photoshop.


This statement contradicts itself. You say in the first sentence that using ETTR I would expose so the lightest tone is just below clipping. Then you say that if I use ETTR, I would intentionally "over expose" the darkest tone of medium grey to off white, then pull it back down in the RAW processor.

In the second sentence you are taking a potential result of ETTR and stating it as basis for determining the exposure - which does not happen when using ETTR. The exposure value of that medium grey will be determined by the highlight, not by trying to over expose it. It's final value will be determined by the dynamic range of the scene, and how close the lightest tones are to clipping. In fact, it's exposure may not change at all.

To me the legacy of film is most apparent in digital photography when it comes to exposure. Not much has changed in technology to determine the "correct" exposure ... dSLR's work pretty much just like flim SLR's did. A "correctly" exposed imaged is typically based on a rendered jpeg ... if it's washed out we think it's over exposed.

ETTR is a valid and useful tool, and works quite well because the sensor itself is basically linear (unlike film). If my scene has 6 stops of dynamic range and I have a sensor that records 12 stops of dynamic range, I can record that data right in the middle, where it may provide the best jpeg on the back of the camera, or I can move all that data to the right. As long as I don't clip the data, I can move it back down to normalize the exposure, but have the advantage of all of the additional levels. More importantly to me I increase the signal/noise ratio of the data, so I can capture an image with less noise.

The challenge is knowing where to stop ... as you mentioned if I have specular highlights that will clip no matter what, I risk losing highlight detail as I push light tones into the clipped tones ... blocking up the highlights. Complicating that is the tools to determine clipping are crude at best, either the histogram, or "blinking" pixels. Both of these are based on a rendered file, not the RAW data.

Obviously you cannot use ETTR on every exposure, and you certainly don't need to use it on many types of photography. There are images where trying to use it risks compromising important highlight detail, and in fact, pushing the exposure the other way may offer the best result. I use ETTR extensively when shooting landscapes in low light situations ... plenty of latitude in dynamic range so by pushing things to the right I can reduce noise in the capture and have a better chance at recording detail. But I never use it when shooting a portrait sitting .. nothing really to gain.

ETTR is a valuable tool that can be applied in some captures to improve image quality. It certainly doesn't work for every exposure, and if you push it too far you may compromise the very thing you are trying to obtain ... a higher quality image.

For those interested in learning about ETTR, Andrew Rodney has a very good article on it ... you can find it here.

http://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/camera-technique/exposing-for-raw.html




Nov 04, 2008 at 10:31 PM
RDKirk
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The thread topic is about the difference between grey cards and why there are ones for film and ones for digital. In current practice grey cards are rarely used to calculate exposure but are used to set white balance.

Wayne, the OP did mention the use of gray cards for exposure.

I respect Rodney greatly, and I've told him so on a different forum. But while that particular article of Rodney's explained the value of adding exposure to the metered value when using a digital camera, he did not describe a precise technique of determining how much additional exposure to give it.

As you yourself said--and you read Rodney's article too--The challenge is knowing where to stop ...

Chuck describes the technique for determining how to determine the precise exposure for the digital sensor, and while his initial description uses the histogram, he also describes how to calibrate exposure meters to find the same result. I personally use a calibrated spotmeter along with a textured white plastic card.

As far as I've seen or read, nobody else has published such a simple technique for determining the precisely correct digital exposure based on the non-film-like characteristics of the digital sensor.



Nov 04, 2008 at 10:47 PM
cgardner
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Wayne:

I never said ETTR doesn't work or shouldn't be used, or isn't a valid approach only that it has the inherent risk of blowing highlight detail you can see in the playback when shooting. You seem to agree....

"The challenge is knowing where to stop ... as you mentioned if I have specular highlights that will clip no matter what, I risk losing highlight detail as I push light tones into the clipped tones ... blocking up the highlights. Complicating that is the tools to determine clipping are crude at best, either the histogram, or "blinking" pixels. Both of these are based on a rendered file, not the RAW data. The challenge is knowing where to stop ... as you mentioned if I have specular highlights that will clip no matter what, I risk losing highlight detail as I push light tones into the clipped tones ... blocking up the highlights. Complicating that is the tools to determine clipping are crude at best, either the histogram, or "blinking" pixels. Both of these are based on a rendered file, not the RAW data.
"

Where I differ from most in approach is that I first consider the perceptual goals of an image in the output, then figure out what strategies and techniques during capture and editing will best meet those goals. It is a legacy of learning how photography works technically and perceptually by learning the zone system from Adams books. His approach is based upon seeing beyond what is in the scene as perceived by eye and how the camera can record it and visualizing how it could be rendered on the print for the greatest emotional impact.
As seen by eye and captured:
http://super.nova.org/TP/GearsOrg.jpg
How I pre-visualized the outcome when deciding to shoot it:
http://super.nova.org/TP/Gears.jpg

For example when shooting on white backgrounds I stress not blowing out the background to 255.255.255, instead keeping it "paper" white at around 250.250.250 so there is "headroom" for specular highlights to define shape in the highlights perceputally.

http://super.nova.org/TP/WhiteBGTowelCard2.jpg

In my tutorial on shooting furry and feathered critters I explain the important role the specular highlights play in perception of the texture of hair, which informs and shapes the lighting strategy. With a black dog a fill light source which creates open shadows with specular reflections on the top of the hair shafts is needed to create the illusion the hair has 3D texture. With a white dog you need the same specular reflections to create the illusion of a healthy sparkling fur, but its also necessary to create shadows to define the shape, which requires a second directional light.

So I start with the assumption that somewhere in the photo there will be subtle highlights, like those in the towel proxy, which need to preserved; highlights which would be blown out if an ETTR exposure is based on moving darker gray tones "to the right" making them lighter relative to their actual appearance. So its not that it ETTR doesn't work, just that it risky. Since its impossible to restore highlight detail which is blown during capture I think its foolish to make critical decisions on highlight exposure based on the limited crude feedback provided by the camera. The benefits of ETTR don't outweigh the risks in my view, so I don't use or advocate that approach. YMMV - there are no rules, just cause and effect.

Also I assume that on a perceptual level, even in an overall dark photo, what is actually attracting the eye and becoming the center of interest are the lighter areas. That's based on the fact the human visual system is attracted by all forms of contrast (tone, color, sharpness, size, shape) an will always gravitate towards what contrasts with the overall background. Our eyes are only capable of focusing on a 2-degree wide area in the center of our field of vision at any one time, with the rest of the FOV being "tuned out" by varying degrees.

So if one decides to use ETTR they should understand the cause and effect on perception. Conventional wisdom says the more shadow detail the better the image will be. But in an overall dark photo the brain will send the eyes in the direction of the lighter contrasting tones and too much detail (expressed with lighter tones) in the background areas can actually be counter-productive, pulling attention off the intended center of interest (the problem with HDR done to excess).

As I mentioned, Adams had a keen sense of tonal balance in his work which came from understanding perception and then bending the technology available at the time to create the desired perceptual result. His zone system can render scenes with ranges of brightness from 6 to 12 f/stops. Doing the the same today with digital sensors requires a different approach, which is why I suggest people learn to use flash effectively and spend a lot of my time teaching flash photography techniques.

So based on my understanding of how images are perceived and the tools we have today I view ETTR as a loaded gun. I think everyone should have right to carry one, but know enough about the consequences of using it to avoid doing harm, including shooting off one's own toes...

In situations where a full range of detail exceeding the ability of the sensor is needed perceptually, such as outdoor portraiture, the best approach is to expose the highlights correctly and add flash to lift the shadows to the range the sensor can record detail.

In situations where a full range of detail exceeding the ability of the sensor to record it but fill flash is not feasible, such as landscapes, I think the best approach is to bracket: shoot one shot normally to correctly expose the highlights, then a second with 3-4 stops more exposure (depending on scene contrast) via shutter speed (so as not to affect the optical properties of the capture) to record the shadow detail which falls below the range of the sensor when a single exposure set to record the highlights correctly is taken. Its trivial to combine the two exposures in Photoshop with masks to add shadow detail, as needed, to meet the holistic perceptual goals for the image. Its analogous to the technique I used on a process camera to create double-black duotones for offset reproduction.

I always have a flash on a bracket on my camera outdoors because I find that perceptually a lack of shadow detail in the background is not noticed if there is a full range of tonality in the foreground:
http://super.nova.org/TP/FillFlashOutdoors1.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/FillFlashOutdoors2.jpg
http://super.nova.org/TP/FillFlashOutdoors3.jpg
With and without fill flash:
http://super.nova.org/TP/FillOutdoors.jpg





Nov 05, 2008 at 07:04 AM
lou f
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excellent thread!


Nov 05, 2008 at 09:09 AM
dmacmillan
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Wayne Fox wrote:
Complicating that is the tools to determine clipping are crude at best, either the histogram, or "blinking" pixels. Both of these are based on a rendered file, not the RAW data.

Many are unaware of this. This can lead to photo errors. I also caution my students about the use of histograms. Unless you can mentally map the tonality of the scene to the histogram, you may make incorrect assumptions.

I was out photographing the changing leaves on the trees on my property last night. I shot at dusk. I used exposure compensation from +1/3 to -1 1/3. In many instances, if I trusted the camera, the red channel would have been overexposed.

Often there is no such thing as "correct" exposure. It can't be derived just by careful application of theory. Luckily, digital affords me the ability to create effects I once achieved with exposure manipulation.

Doug




Nov 05, 2008 at 10:48 AM
cgardner
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By comparing the appearance camera feedback to the appearance of RAW files on the computer screen it is possible to rather quickly train the brain to correlate the appearance of the camera feedback with the results in the RAW capture. RAW has the advantage of having more "head room" in the highlights than revealed in the camera histogram and over-exposure warning. So adjusting exposure per the OEW is actually a somewhat conservative approach in the sense that is better to err on the side of slight under exposure during capture than try to tweek the last bit of DR out of the sensor by keeping highlight detail on the bleeding edge of clipping when shooting. That risks blowing highlights too small to appear in the camera feedback.

Part of any form of artistic expression is learning craft: how the tools needed to express creative ideas work. The more an artist understands how to control the tools they use, the more effectively they can translate their imagination into whatever medium they choose to communicate it with to others. Things like gray cards and knowing how to use them effectively are just parts of that process for digital photography.



Nov 05, 2008 at 11:31 AM





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