As the pixels get smaller they can use a less aggressive AA filter. Beyond that it is all a matter of trade-offs (how much Morie to accept versus how much softness).
When they can do AA filtering real-time in software they will have a lot more control over the various parameters.
DSLR Magazine wrote:
One reason for [the 5D replacement] delay was the presentation of the Nikon D3, with its very high performance at high ISO... But the key concern was the sensor. And Canon had hoped to have ready its latest advances in CMOS sensors, some of whom tried-with total discretion in CMOS-APS-C size incorporated into the 50D.
But the version of CMOS 24 x 36 mm incorporated into the EOS 5D Mark II will not be like the 15-megapixel APS-C of the 50D [but 21 Megapixels] as DSLR Magazine have confirmed to all sources of solvency.
Yes: 21-megapixel, and may think the same thing we are thinking of us.... that is where the 1Ds Mark III and where it's located its possible replacement. ...Show more →
Maybe I misunderstood something in the translation. But the magazine seems to imply that the 5D replacement will not incorporate the latest CMOS advances from Canon. Instead, it will be using the same 21 MP sensor that Canon originally developed for 2007's 1Ds Mark III. The only significant change is that it will be paired with Digic4 this time. It should be noted that Digic4 offers no benefits for anyone shooting RAW.
I'd prefer it if technology is moving forward, not backward. If Canon has implemented their latest R&D in CMOS design on the 50D, then it ought to be on their future cameras as well. I'm hoping the article is wrong. That same article predicts Canon's intentions to move to 16-bit RAW format in its next generation of dSLRs, which just seems like baloney to me. There's hardly enough justification for 14-bits as it is, and a misguided move to 16-bits seems so far fetched. The processing power required for 16-bit RAW will bring Digic4 or Digic5 or Digic99 to its knees.
according to DSP theory they cannot do AA in sw after sampling. Here the sampling is performed by the 2D sensor so they need to put something in front of it.
In the practice it maybe be so, that lens and air imperfectness already perform adequate AA function when they increase sampling rate (see pix density) so high.
But it doesn't help your overall sharpness, AA is there but done by an other means.
Can't open this site ... wonder if the source is the same old rumors that have been all over the place? Does not sound like an entry level FF, which is of course what the 5D is ... a FF 20D. Wonder if this is another body?
The article is pretty detailed. Has some interesting diagrams about the sensor technology, etc.
You might be right about the body. Sounds sort of like a 3D/4D.
Edited by jerrykur on Sep 02, 2008 at 07:17 AM GMT
Edited by jerrykur on Sep 02, 2008 at 07:17 AM GMT
If what I`ve been reading over on DPr is true( apart from camera after camera after camera) having had my 1dsmk3 for less than a year, I can`t help feeling let down by Canon. I know all the arguments about the 1 series being built like a tank and be able to take plenty of stick etc etc but if they have managed to upgrade the body of the 5D replacement to anything like the D700 with as many pixels as the 1dsmk3 then what is the point I think they need to respect their pro following and not leave a taste in the mouth.
Yeh! great if you are using a 20D or 40D and can step up into a camera like the article suggest for a fraction of the cost of a 1 series (and good luck to you) but are they trying to do away with the 1 series cameras or just trying to P*** off their loyal followers?
Yeh! it is a bit of sour grapes but can you blame me?
I have a 1Ds3, too, so I feel qualified or at least entitled to respond. And I do not share your sentiments. If they come with a 5D2 with 21MP or even with 25MP it doesn't make my camera obsolete, and if nothing else, by the time the 5D2 has hit the streets I will have used my 1Ds3 for a year, or about 60k clicks. I bought the camera to use it, not to worship it. I knew that it would be rendered obsolete, or at least surpassed in one or many aspects sooner or later, and I am actually quite happy if it's sooner, because that means an even better 1D(s)4 offering, which will benefit me once again.
dave chilvers wrote:
If what I`ve been reading over on DPr is true( apart from camera after camera after camera) having had my 1dsmk3 for less than a year, I can`t help feeling let down by Canon. I know all the arguments about the 1 series being built like a tank and be able to take plenty of stick etc etc but if they have managed to upgrade the body of the 5D replacement to anything like the D700 with as many pixels as the 1dsmk3 then what is the point I think they need to respect their pro following and not leave a taste in the mouth.
Yeh! great if you are using a 20D or 40D and can step up into a camera like the article suggest for a fraction of the cost of a 1 series (and good luck to you) but are they trying to do away with the 1 series cameras or just trying to P*** off their loyal followers?
Yeh! it is a bit of sour grapes but can you blame me?
They are going to p"""" off some of you no matter what they do. If they don`t make an amazing 5DII everyone will say they failed and are washed up. If they do you will say why did I pay so much for a 1DIII......sounds like they can`t win. I personaly hope they push tech. as far as they can.....top what Nikon and Sony put out......it will be to all our advantage in the long run. It will also mean the 1DIV will be even more amazing my friend so don`t hope for a failed update for your own gain...........Peter
digitalbug30d wrote:
just think there are people who still use a D60...its not about the MPs its about the art...
Your right.....that is a fact sometimes lost. But this is a Canon Camera forum.....you know where people talk about new Canon technology. Or dream about it at least. I bought a 5d when it first came out and am still very happy with it. I make beautiful fine art photos with it and if technology never changed I would be happy with it. But....I come here to see what`s new or as said dream about what might be new.........Peter
stanj wrote:
I have a 1Ds3, too, so I feel qualified or at least entitled to respond. And I do not share your sentiments. If they come with a 5D2 with 21MP or even with 25MP it doesn't make my camera obsolete, and if nothing else, by the time the 5D2 has hit the streets I will have used my 1Ds3 for a year, or about 60k clicks. I bought the camera to use it, not to worship it. I knew that it would be rendered obsolete, or at least surpassed in one or many aspects sooner or later, and I am actually quite happy if it's sooner, because that means an even better 1D(s)4 offering, which will benefit me once again....Show more →
Hi Stan. I don't have a 1D anything (yet) but I agree with this sentiment. It seems to me that Canon has rather recently achieved a few breakthroughs (thanks Nikon) and we will soon see them in the 1D series as well.
Endre: I guess you will have to tell that to the Canon engineers in a year or two after they have this in the marketplace. It's not me that's saying this - it comes from Canon.
You missed the point. I did say good luck to guys like you who are waiting for the replacement but if you had laid out £6k nine months ago for the state of the art then you might feel differently? In this day and age one would be stupid to expect 3 years between replacement like it used to be, but 9 months (or maybe a year)
I`m not hoping for a failed update but a decent gap between models might be nice. Perhaps in a funny way the 1dsmk3 was behind it`s time when released
Stan
"not to worship it" I gather you are not referring to me? My cameras are well used, thrown around in the boot of the car and used as a tool and affording the latest replacement isn`t a problem, it`s not about money but more about principles and taste in the mouth for me Stan.But there you go! if we all felt the same you`d have to wait longer for your new camera
There is a strong smell of money making around with regards electronic gear now days and we seem to be falling for it head over heels(better equipment or not) Perhaps I`ll buy shares in Canon with the upgrade money instead
Dave
I do see your point and yes your right if I had just bought a 1DIII I might look at it differently. But I think we have Nikon and Sony to thank for this (or in your case not thank). I think Canon new of these advances more then a year ago and started pushing hard to better them. Under Canons normal advances we would probably only see a 16MP 5D with no weather sealing and 9 point AF.....that is if any of these rumors are true.........Peter
Rubber Soul wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood something in the translation. But the magazine seems to imply that the 5D replacement will not incorporate the latest CMOS advances from Canon. Instead, it will be using the same 21 MP sensor that Canon originally developed for 2007's 1Ds Mark III. The only significant change is that it will be paired with Digic4 this time. It should be noted that Digic4 offers no benefits for anyone shooting RAW.
I would understand the auto-translated sentence:
"Yes: 21-megapixel, and may think the same thing we are thinking of us.... that is where the 1Ds Mark III and where it's located its possible replacement."
to mean:
"Yes, 21 Mpixel, and you probably think the same as we did: where does that leave the 1Ds Mk3, and where its possible replacement ?"
And the sentence:
"For the 21-megapixel sensor for the 5D Mark II envisages a step further gain sensitivity rather than noise on the 50D."
Might mean:
"The 21 Mpixel sensor of the 5D Mark II realizes a further step in advancing sensitivity compared to the noise-level of the 50D."
Or is that my wishful thinking? Doesn't anyone speak some spanish on this list?
1) Digit IV is almost at the theoretical maximum regarding algorithmic noise reduction
2) Digit IV allows for pixel binning, analyzing the noise level at each pixel and averaging it out before RAW conversion
3) The 21 Mpixel sensor of the 5D Mark II realizes a further step in advancing sensitivity compared to the noise-level of the 50D (you where spot on Tayo, good spanish translation)
4) Canon is thinking in adjusting the sensitivity of each pixel, depending on the shadows/lights of the image.
The other things I think have been analyzed already
Reality is that its not just what the sensor can do, but what can be offered by the new Digic IV processor.
And the other sentence states that "For the 21 megapixel sensor on the 5D Mark II is expected to gain one step in sensibility, rather than noise, in respect to the 50D"
Then it goes to talk about pixel binning which would yield incredibly low s/n ratios for sensors of more than 40 megapixels in resolution.
It goes to talk about microlenses and low pass filter and how it will be completely eliminated by Digic V processor.
Hmm. The Northlight article from Aug 27th contains this sentence:
"Again the design of the 50D is a big step forward here from the 40D and 1D III etc. Canon have one more big jump lined up, with low voltage cold running CMOS designs to gain at least an additional stop in lower noise at higher ISOs or long exposures."
It seems the spanish article suggests that this "big jump" is already expected in the 5D Mk2. But it also seems that the originators of the information had somewhat vague information, in both articles, as to how scientific advancements are related to actual products. We'll know soon.
So whichever upcoming camera has 21.1 MPixel on a FF, and the low-voltage sensor with "at least" one additional f-stop sensitivity, it should have more than 2 stops higher ISO performance relative to the 50D. Right? And the 50D seems to do quite well already.
Edit: That's per-pixel. Overall-image ISO performance should be 2.5 - 2.8 stops relative.
I think they need to respect their pro following and not leave a taste in the mouth.
