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Archive 2008 · Primes only?

  
 
mh2000
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p.8 #1 · Primes only?


Easy?

I guess it took a lot for you to agree that shooting with a single FL could lead to expanding creative experience as a side effect... why didn't you start out saying that?



DavidP wrote:
OK, I can live with that.

See, it was easy, wasn't it?




Aug 29, 2008 at 10:24 PM
danmitchell
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p.8 #2 · Primes only?


You could count the number of great photographers who truly stuck to one focal length on one or two hands. There are very, very few. Who are you thinking of when you write of "the photographer's work which seems to inspire" you that was done without resort to more than a single focal length lens?

By the way, more than a few people do find Adam's work (his photography, his encouragement of a herd of other famous photographers, his writing, etc.) to be "inspiring." I hope your dismissal is not based on some of the common misconceptions about him, including: he only
...Show more


Edited on Aug 29, 2008 at 10:32 PM



Aug 29, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Spyro P.
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p.8 #3 · Primes only?


Trent Parke, Sebastiao Salgado, Garry Winogrand, Henri Cartier Bresson. There are a few photographers that stick to one FL, its part of their style and it gives a concistency to their gallery. Usually 28 or 35mm, mostly prefocused rangefinders.

Primes are restrictive when you're subject restricted and you have to do a tight crop of the bride because they're paying you to do so. If you're not subject restricted there are thousands of photos around, for every focal length. Seeing and recognising them is the problem, not taking them.

Edited on Aug 29, 2008 at 10:44 PM



Aug 29, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Roy Pertchik
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p.8 #4 · Primes only?


I currently have three 2.8 zooms, and three primes and a T&S lens,... Here's some stuff I posted a while back:

If you combine dial-a-zoom with foot-zoom, you can really control the 3-dimensional juxtaposition of elements in a very fluid way... Lets say I am liking the way a tree branch in the foreground frames around a house beyond, for example, but I want to lift the branch a bit in the composition, so I walk forward which raises the branch in the foreground relative to the house beyond, but now I start to loose the sides of the house because I walked forward, so now I also zoom back out a bit... and as I zoom out, I start to see a white picket fence coming in from the sides, so I think I'd like to trade some of the branch-lifting I accomplished by walking forward for some more fence-encroachment from the sides.. so now I step backwards just a bit to drop the branch slightly but also bring the fence in from the sides, and I finish up by zooming in tighter a bit to compensate for the last step back... and I finally strike a balance between ideal position and ideal focal length.. This iterative, recursive compositional process is impractical with primes. Now, I don’t think this is how most people think of zooms, but if you just stand in one spot and zoom in and out to fill the frame thoughtlessly, you are wasting the finesse available with a zoom... The full benefit is realized if you combine foot zoom with dial-a-zoom and achieve the perfect perspective and the perfect focal length to have the 3 dimensional elements arranged just so on your 2 dimensional picture.

Now, with regard to resolution and sharpness issues, zooms often have an advantage here too, because you can do most of your cropping in camera, and obviously you are way ahead of the game compared to cropping in the computer. For example, in a real situation, one might have the opportunity to go from say an 85 prime to a 135 prime to frame a portrait just so, but one may chose not to bother changing primes so as not to interrupt the flow, and instead plan to do the crop on the computer... but just the difference of one lens step, 85 to 135, is approximately 100% difference in surface area... so if you do it with a crop in the PC, that's a 50% throw away of pixels, and a 1.4x enlargement of CoC, etc. etc. thereby completely destroying any sharpness/resolution advantage the prime may have had over a zoom that would have accomplished the same crop in camera. Yes, if you are doing careful tripod work in a studio, for product shots for example, you can take the time needed to get the right prime and the right camera position to optimize quality, and thereby reap the benefit of primes. But I have found that in the field, with a DSLR, the whole point of these cameras is hand hold-ability and fluidity, and in the real world, I'm finding zooms will get me better compositions, and better trade-offs between compositional elements (by combining dial-a-zoom with foot zoom), and even better sharpness/resolution because of better in camera cropping.


I keep some primes for low light and extreme bokeh (24 L, 50 1.4, 85 1.8). Sometimes, to be inconspicuous, I'll just go out with one prime, maybe a second in my pocket. In a dark setting, I might bring the 24 on a crop body and the 85 on full frame, then swap to increase range when I want it.

Edited on Aug 29, 2008 at 11:27 PM



Aug 29, 2008 at 11:25 PM
philber
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p.8 #5 · Primes only?


I think that "shooting primes" may actually cover 2 different shooting patterns. One is that the photographer walks around with only one prime on his camera body, a la Henri Cartier Bresson. Advantages are IQ, lightness, cost, in some cases discretion. The obvious disadvantage is that there are only certain shots that lend themselves to a single FL at one place at one time.
The other prime crowd carry a bag full of a range of primes in order to essentially cover the same range as zooms. Advantages are IQ, camera lightness, discretion. Disadvantage: the bag is then significantly heavier than one carrying a similar array of zooms. Cost is also on the high side (very high if only L primes). And the shooter needs to spend time changing primes on the spot.
Of course one can own a range of primes and only go around with one at a time. It is the prime equivalent of having a zoom and only using one focal length, as suggested by a member on this thread...:-)
It is clearly a case of horses-for-courses IMHO.



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:03 AM
danmitchell
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p.8 #6 · Primes only?


Spyro P. wrote:
Trent Parke, Sebastiao Salgado, Garry Winogrand, Henri Cartier Bresson. There are a few photographers that stick to one FL, its part of their style and it gives a concistency to their gallery. Usually 28 or 35mm, mostly prefocused rangefinders.


A main notion of this thread has been that primes force the photographer to work more slowly and with greater consideration, in opposition to the supposed faster and less carefully considered approach of those who shoot zooms.

I'm simply astonished to think that you would hold Winogrand up as a photographer whose use of a prime led him to work more carefully! He shot almost compulsively fast, exposing many, many rolls of film in short order. Then he put the undeveloped rolls away for a year or so - the plan being that when he returned to them he would have no memory of the actual circumstances of making the individual photograph. (Did you know he purchased an 8x10 view camera shortly before his death?)

It is my understanding that while a great number of Cartier-Bresson's photographs were made with a 50mm lens, that he also owned and used lenses with focal lengths between 35mm and 90mm.

One report I found on Parke states: "In his work as a sports photographer (he shot cricket for News Ltd. for eight years) he used all the latest gear, but for his own work he resolutely keeps it very simple."

Things are not as simple as you may think...





Aug 30, 2008 at 01:11 AM
mh2000
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p.8 #7 · Primes only?


was a general response to several people... I don't know that David is actually a phantom (is he?)... hahaha

>>[Re]just like shooting with a zoom will not make other people more creative...

"You are arguing with a phantom. I didn't write that. "



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:27 AM
mh2000
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p.8 #8 · Primes only?


*I* certainly never said any of those things... so this time *you* are either "arguing with a phantom" or arguing with someone else.



>>I countered the unsubstantiated and naive claims that shooting with a zoom must make photographers LESS creative, LESS thoughtful, LESS engaged with their subjects, LESS willing to take the time to consider how to create an effective composition.



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:28 AM
Spyro P.
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p.8 #9 · Primes only?


Yeah true, all street shooters shoot a lot and the majority of their photos are pretty average, or so say those who have seen Winogrands & Bresson's proofs at the Magnum archive. Bresson owned every Leica lens under the sun because Leica was just giving them to him, but the majority of his photos are 50 or 35, cant remember. I didnt bring up these guys as an example of greater consideration or care as a result of primes, just an example of photographers that used mostly one focal length and got great results. Dont know if its a result of primes as there were no zooms back then anyway. The only point I was trying to make was that unless you're subject restricted there are many photos to be taken if you can see them, and the focal length is not a problem. It was done in the past and it can be done again. If one wants to try or not is up to the individual really and what they feel they get better results with.




Aug 30, 2008 at 01:30 AM
rhorta
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p.8 #10 · Primes only?


Jo Dilbeck wrote:
It is VERY nice to have that flexibility though, so if I WERE shooting primes ONLY, I'd have 28, 45, 50, 80, 85, 135, 136 and 215 (four primes, 2 bodies). WAY too many choices for my poor brain to wrap itself around, so the 135 F2 may be up for sale soon!

Jo


Its up to you Jo, but IMHO the 135/2 on FF is better in most regards than the 85/1.8 on crop.

Unless of course you don't care for 135mm and "216mm" period.

Ruy



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:32 AM
mh2000
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p.8 #11 · Primes only?


Nope, I just said that his work didn't really inspire *me*... no grand condemnation, no nothing... other than *I* didn't respond well to his work. I do own all his books and find them quite good references and recommend them to new photographer all the time. Being inspired by and respecting someone are two entirely different things.

Of AA's work, I respond most strongly to the Manzanar photos; in electronic book form here:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage

>>By the way, more than a few people do find Adam's work (his photography, his encouragement of a herd of other famous photographers, his writing, etc.) to be "inspiring." I hope your dismissal is not based on some of the common misconceptions about him,



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:38 AM
Westvleteren
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p.8 #12 · Primes only?


Use whatever lens(es) you want. Close thread.


Aug 30, 2008 at 01:43 AM
mh2000
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p.8 #13 · Primes only?


one person mentioned that another side effect of shooting a single FL was to give a consistency to a photographer's body of work, when viewed as a whole... personally, I think consistency make me find someone's work stronger and more interesting than a varied group of "oh wow!" shots...

this is just me... so similarly, I don't like mixed aspect ratio prints, a bunch of differently toned b&w photos, mixed color and b&w etc...

Edited on Aug 30, 2008 at 01:49 AM



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:48 AM
rhorta
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p.8 #14 · Primes only?


Preferring a single FL, lets say 50mm, over all others is fine. Preferring the results of one 50mm over the other is fine too. There is no arguing about taste. If you do so because of taste, than you are a lucky man. Buy a single good body and the "best" 50mm to suit your style and you are set for a long time.

But if you are stuck in this view because you think it somehow makes you a more artistic and better photographer than you end up being little more than a snob, unless you can come up with proof that your work falls under that special category which ends up in artistic galleries (not the small town church cateen) and commercial publications (as in not self published small run for friends sold or given away at a loss).

FM seems to be about sharing information, experience and to some extend preference, but pressing the last over and over again isn't exactly conductive for a constructive conversation. It all becomes pretty repetitive (IMHO).

All with a friendly

Ruy

Love my primes, but if I had to make a rational choice I'd end up with at least one zoom.



Aug 30, 2008 at 01:55 AM
DavidP
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p.8 #15 · Primes only?


Roy Pertchik wrote:
If you combine dial-a-zoom with foot-zoom, you can really control the 3-dimensional juxtaposition of elements in a very fluid way... . . This iterative, recursive compositional process is impractical with primes.


Exactly!

Though I wouldn't call it "impractical" with primes. It's just a lot more cumbersome, and you need to carry a lot of primes with you to make it possible. Which sorta negates one of the advantages of primes.

Now, I don’t think this is how most people think of zooms, but if you just stand in one spot and zoom in and out to fill the frame thoughtlessly, you are wasting the finesse available with a zoom...

I'm not sure if most people "stand in one spot and zoom" because they're not thinking about it . . . . I think it's generally because they often don't have a choice. Crowded places, places with fences, etc (think zoo) is a good example.

Though perhaps that's a bad example, because I typically go with primes at zoos because I want closeups of animals that are typically very far away relative to their size. Well, actually I'd probably take the 400 DO, 70-200/2.8 IS, and the 1.4x and 2x TC's.



[The full benefit is realized if you combine foot zoom with dial-a-zoom and achieve the perfect perspective and the perfect focal length to have the 3 dimensional elements arranged just so on your 2 dimensional picture.

That's ideal. Though practically speaking, I think zooms just make it easier for me to frame up the shot (I don't like to have to do that much cropping) after I've made the decision about where to stand. And that decision is usually driven by a combination of composition considerations AND physical constraints.





Aug 30, 2008 at 10:36 AM
mh2000
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p.8 #16 · Primes only?


well... my work has been in some serious galleries... though far from top name NY galleries...

I think some of what goes on it a perceived snobbery... easy to happen on an online forum... people tend to read a little of what they expect to read into posts.

I've owned lots of lenses, zooms and primes, so the realization that a little fast 50 just works for me came from 30+ years experience, not philosophy... so I don't feel "stuck" with anything... I still have a shelf full of lenses and can shoot whatever seems appropriate.

Do you think I'm somehow being a snob with my EF 50/1.8 and Rebel G (Ok, I do have a couple low end Leica's, but still... nothing to be snobbish about).

Cheers all!

I really think most people on the primes side are just trying to express their own experiences... if someone doesn't share them, that is fine, but why dispute other people's experiences? It is certainly impossible to build a case against the flexibility of zooms... and most people that find creative pleasure using a prime... well, that is their own pleasure... if you try it and don't like it, that is perfectly valid...

I'm going out the door and trying to decide if I want my tiny Olympus XA rangefinder with 35mm FL or my Retina IIa with a 50mm FL...




>>But if you are stuck in this view because you think it somehow makes you a more artistic and better photographer than you end up being little more than a snob, unless you can come up with proof that your work falls under that special category which ends up in artistic galleries



Aug 30, 2008 at 03:08 PM
danmitchell
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p.8 #17 · Primes only?


The Manzanar photo is one of my favorites and I cannot pass that location without thinking of it. Oddly, the more I get to know that photo the less I look at it as a landscape (in the sense of an image of a place and its objective/subjective qualities) and the more I see it as an abstract image constructed of textures and forms.

There is a division between the larger lower section of the composition. The lower part seems to be composed of almost random elements, though there are clearly relationships among them - some are built from perceived connections between them that build larger forms (such as triangles) and others form curves that lead into the frame.

The upper section plays a lot with triangular shapes: the shapes of the peak and sub-peaks in front, the space between them, and so forth. In fact, some of these shapes are mirrored in the forms you can find in the lower section - where the main central boulders form, for me at least, a triangular form that reflects this.

One thing always creates a tiny dissonance for me though... I keep thinking that the camera could have been a tiny bit further to the left or that a bit could have been cropped off the right margin.

Dan

mh2000 wrote:
Nope, I just said that his work didn't really inspire *me*... no grand condemnation, no nothing... other than *I* didn't respond well to his work. I do own all his books and find them quite good references and recommend them to new photographer all the time. Being inspired by and respecting someone are two entirely different things.

Of AA's work, I respond most strongly to the Manzanar photos; in electronic book form here:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage

>>By the way, more than a few people do find Adam's work (his photography, his encouragement of a herd of other famous photographers, his writing, etc.) to be
...Show more



Aug 30, 2008 at 03:09 PM
danmitchell
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p.8 #18 · Primes only?


Don't believe I attributed those directly to you. Note that I didn't write "I countered YOUR...," I wrote "countered THE."

These were clearly points raised in defense of the "primes are better than zooms" thrust of this thread, and a good part of what originally drew me into this discussion.

mh2000 wrote:
*I* certainly never said any of those things... so this time *you* are either "arguing with a phantom" or arguing with someone else.



>>I countered the unsubstantiated and naive claims that shooting with a zoom must make photographers LESS creative, LESS thoughtful, LESS engaged with their subjects, LESS willing to take the time to consider how to create an effective composition.




Aug 30, 2008 at 03:13 PM
David Baldwin
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p.8 #19 · Primes only?


Kaffemonster

Really liked your family portrait posted Aug 28, 2008 at 09:09 AM

Very intimate, shooting available light indoors is so wonderful.

Man, you've got to go with primes, get the fastest you can afford. f4 zooms are fine for sunny landscapes, but indoors on people a fast prime does magical things!



Aug 30, 2008 at 03:21 PM
Sorensiim
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p.8 #20 · Primes only?


David Baldwin wrote:
Kaffemonster

Really liked your family portrait posted Aug 28, 2008 at 09:09 AM

Very intimate, shooting available light indoors is so wonderful.

Man, you've got to go with primes, get the fastest you can afford. f4 zooms are fine for sunny landscapes, but indoors on people a fast prime does magical things!


Thank you

Shooting people indoors in available light, without them even noticing me is a thing I love doing. Shooting people outside, in available light, without them even noticing me is a thing I love doing. Being able to throw a busy background out of focus and turn it into a lovely sea of creamy bokeh, serving to "frame" my subject is really just icing on the cake and the reason I'm a total slut for wide apertures.

I had no idea that a simple post like mine would stirr up this much racket. I really love both zooms and primes, both have advantages. If I win the lottery, I'll keep my zooms and buy a lot of primes. If not, I'll sell my zooms and shoot primes for some time, until I can afford at least the 24-70 again. But for now I think I'll go all primes. Not to be snobby, not because I expect this decision to turn my family snaps into art, but because I'd love the challenge.



Aug 30, 2008 at 04:08 PM
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