DavidP wrote:
This isn't about "preference". It's about demonstrable FACT.
Conceptually, I'm more on your side in a debate between those who promote "primes only" over "zooms only" or "primes plus zooms." (The latter is where I come down on this.)
But it is largely about preference in the end. Some people will still prefer to use primes and in some cases they have fine reasons for this choice. Even though I shoot both, I'm all for people shooting with whatever they prefer to shoot with and whatever they think will let them produce their best work.
I'm not favorable to misrepresentations of the preferences of those who have a different point of view, nor about personalizing the differences.
Take care,
Dan
Edited by danmitchell on Sep 01, 2008 at 09:28 PM GMT
I don't know why I was the one sucked into this...
I agree with David that the reason to choose primes over zooms is primarily for small, fast and high quality optics, not for creative benefit, but working with the limitation of a fixed FL sometimes leads to creative solutions and inovations that you otherwise wouldn't have sought out (why is it so impossible to accept this?)... of course it can also lead to missed shots and opertunities. Even David said he agreed with this momentarily before again starting to attach the prime-shooter strawman in his mind in response to my posts.
I don't understand why some people think there is some simple "fact" for everything... life and creative endeavors are both complex and truth is often broadban in nature... everyone should find their own happiness... and if they share their own experiences... hopefully it can be a more pleasant experience for...
Sad to me to think that anyone thinks they know everything.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
Not really wanting to get in the middle here, I'll give this one try,... I think David is only saying that with a zoom, you can shoot all day at one FL if you want, (and he even mentioned duct tape as a bit of a joke.) So, he pointed out that having a prime is not the only way to limit yourself to one FL, so hes says it's false to say that only a prime makes you think in one FL, because you can simulate a prime with a zoom, if you want. Then I think he said the other reasons people give for preferring primes make more sense to him. ...Show more →
I would never shoot an event professionally with only primes... for my fine art work it is usually with a prime... but if I have my 24-70L with me, no problem. I'm not on one side or the other.
>>Conceptually, I'm more on your side in a debate between those who promote "primes only" over "zooms only" or "primes plus zooms."
mh2000 wrote:
I don't know why I was the one sucked into this...
I agree with David that the reason to choose primes over zooms is primarily for small, fast and high quality optics, not for creative benefit, but working with the limitation of a fixed FL sometimes leads to creative solutions and inovations that you otherwise wouldn't have sought out (why is it so impossible to accept this?)... of course it can also lead to missed shots and opertunities. Even David said he agreed with this momentarily before again starting to attach the prime-shooter strawman in his mind in response to my posts.
I don't understand why some people think there is some simple "fact" for everything... life and creative endeavors are both complex and truth is often broadban in nature... everyone should find their own happiness... and if they share their own experiences... hopefully it can be a more pleasant experience for...
Sad to me to think that anyone thinks they know everything.
Hmmm, I think a lot is being misunderstood here. David's only making a sort of semantic point, really; he's saying it's a FACT that you CAN simulate a prime with a zoom IF YOU WANT. So anything that is good about shooting with a prime CAN be achieved with a zoom IF YOU WANT. I don't think he's saying anything more than that, except that it bugs him when he hears people say you MUST have a prime to shoot at one focal length, because you CAN shoot at one focal length with a zoom IF YOU WANT.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
Not really wanting to get in the middle here, I'll give this one try,... I think David is only saying that with a zoom, you can shoot all day at one FL if you want, (and he even mentioned duct tape as a bit of a joke.) So, he pointed out that having a prime is not the only way to limit yourself to one FL, so hes says it's false to say that only a prime makes you think in one FL, because you can simulate a prime with a zoom, if you want. Then I think he said the other reasons people give for preferring primes make more sense to him. ...Show more →
mh2000 wrote:
I would never shoot an event professionally with only primes...
I shoot my only "professional job" both with primes and with zooms.
The primes are for the darker parts of the job. Of course, I carry two bodies. I used to also carry a couple of extra primes with me while doing this, but now I just carry the 135/2 and 24/1.4 and work with that.
The zooms are indispensable, though, when shooting the better lit parts of the job (telethon).
Roy Pertchik wrote:
Hmmm, I think a lot is being misunderstood here. David's only making a sort of semantic point, really; he's saying it's a FACT that you CAN simulate a prime with a zoom IF YOU WANT. So anything that is good about shooting with a prime CAN be achieved with a zoom IF YOU WANT. I don't think he's saying anything more than that, except that it bugs him when he hears people say you MUST have a prime to shoot at one focal length,
I wouldn't say that "ANYTHING that is good about shooting with a prime can be achieved with a zoom if you want".
But what you say in your last quoted sentence is exactly correct.
My objection is to posts like Zogster's that said:
"and they force you to think more about how you are going to compose the picture."
and "and my ability to frame a shot has definitely improved by being force to more fully consider it before firing away."
You might as well say that owning a camera without AF is better than having one with AF . . . or only having ISO100 available is better than one with more choices . . . or only having one shutter speed is better . . or only one aperture . . . . because these limitations would FORCE you to be more creative.
The thing is, you can CHOOSE to do these things WITHOUT having your equipment do the limiting for you.
I submit it's better to have the options, and use your WILLPOWER to do the limiting for you, if that's what you wish to do.
I still don't think you can simulate the fact that you only have one FL when you have a zoom, just like you can't simulate having one FL with a bag of different primes... either way you *really* do in fact have more than one FL at your disposal, period. People can pretend anything they want, but that doesn't make it a reality.
>>Hmmm, I think a lot is being misunderstood here. David's only making a sort of semantic point, really; he's saying it's a FACT that you CAN simulate a prime with a zoom IF YOU WANT.
mh2000 wrote:
I still don't think you can simulate the fact that you only have one FL when you have a zoom, . . People can pretend anything they want, but that doesn't make it a reality.
Umm, the whole premise of the word SIMULATION is that it is NOT reality.
It doesn't change the fact, though, that you can "force yourself" to use a single FL without owning a single prime.
Or at least I can.
I'm not sure I can help those who remain convinced that they can't.
DavidP wrote:
My objection is to posts like Zogster's that said:
"and they force you to think more about how you are going to compose the picture."
and "and my ability to frame a shot has definitely improved by being force to more fully consider it before firing away."
You might as well say that owning a camera without AF is better than having one with AF . . . or only having ISO100 available is better than one with more choices . . . or only having one shutter speed is better . . or only one aperture . . . . because these limitations would FORCE you to be more creative.
The thing is, you can CHOOSE to do these things WITHOUT having your equipment do the limiting for you.
I submit it's better to have the options, and use your WILLPOWER to do the limiting for you, if that's what you wish to do....Show more →
Ah, but now we part company, Dave. I do think that being FORCED by constraints can be productive, creatively. Whether the constraints are externally imposed (I only have a prime with me) or self imposed (I put duct tape on my zoom), the constraint, by definition, will force you to think within proscribed boundaries about how to solve the problem at hand, and often lead you to inventive results. I'm an architect. If I have a blank sheet of paper, it's pretty hard to start designing a house. But, give me a sight plan, with a view in one direction, and a road coming in somewhere, and a tree you want to save, and a climate, and a budget, and a description of your family, and we're off to the races! FLW used to say "Your constraints are your best friends", and I think he was right.
I like two bodies w/three 2.8 zooms, plus a prime or two in my bag. But I also enjoy two bodies and two primes, too.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
Ah, but now we part company, Dave. I do think that being FORCED by constraints can be productive, creatively. Whether the constraints are externally imposed (I only have a prime with me) or self imposed (I put duct tape on my zoom), the constraint, by definition, will force you to think within proscribed boundaries about how to solve the problem at hand, and often lead you to inventive results.
True.
But, if you only own zooms, and don't need the lighter weight of primes, nor the faster aperture, nor the better IQ, then wouldn't it be a bit silly to go buy primes to "force" yourself to use only a single focal length as an exercise in becoming more creative?
It'd be like asking you to get rid of your computer to "force" you to design things by hand. No reason to go to that extreme . . just don't use the computer.
But, if you only own zooms, and don't need the lighter weight of primes, nor the faster aperture, nor the better IQ, then wouldn't it be a bit silly to go buy primes to "force" yourself to use only a single focal length as an exercise in becoming more creative?
It'd be like asking you to get rid of your computer to "force" you to design things by hand. No reason to go to that extreme . . just don't use the computer.
I am certain we agree on all permutations of this :-) I was also delighted when 2nd'ed my description of the finesse of the iterative/recursive process of composing fl vs station point with zooms.
Roy Pertchik wrote:
I am certain we agree on all permutations of this :-) I was also delighted when 2nd'ed my description of the finesse of the iterative/recursive process of composing fl vs station point with zooms.
