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Archive 2008 · Is it art or pornography?

  
 
CRFTony
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p.4 #1 · Is it art or pornography?


Erik Moore wrote:
Sorry, I was talking about Thora Birch and American Beauty.



Oh, sorry about that.

I checked the release dates and Birch would have been 17 1/2 when AB was released (3/82 to 8/99). I did a quick internet search and she was 16 when the topless scene was shot. Sorry for the mistake.

"Was actually only 16 years old at the time she was filmed nude for a scene in American Beauty (1999). She told TV talk show host Craig Kilborn when she appeared on his show in 2002 that her parents didn't have a problem with her doing a nude scene, despite her being under age, and they encouraged her to go ahead and do it. They agreed that her character's nude scene was so important to the development of her character that they gave their approval."

Edited on May 28, 2008 at 10:48 AM



May 28, 2008 at 10:47 AM
paulhodson
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p.4 #2 · Is it art or pornography?


Sam tran wrote:
Come to think of it, if the Law said that posting my grandma's nude picture is a porn and illegal then either I don't post it or will try to change the LAW, there is nothing to it.


Go for the former - please!



May 28, 2008 at 11:00 AM
James Markus
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p.4 #3 · Is it art or pornography?


I never called this porn, nor did I call it art. I believe it is neither, and it clearly is exploitation of a minor. A 13 year old doesn't have the legal right to consent (in Australia) to this photo shoot; which is why her parents did the legal consenting. Anytime someone of diminished maturity, mental, emotional, or intellectual capacity is USED to further someone else who has all these fully developed capacities - it is exploitation. The "artist" used her to further his "art" career. Her parents used her for some reason, which I think proves their abuse of the trust they have concerning their daughter. This is not an attitude, but a legal issue which has been already been decided by various cultures with variously different accepted norms. I tend to agree that Americans - in general - do have hang ups with the female form...particularly breasts. Which, BTW have a primary function of feeding children...a non sexual act. Artist or no - he may have broken Australian law - which he surely was aware this photo could get him trouble.


May 28, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Erik Moore
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p.4 #4 · Is it art or pornography?


1_of_9 wrote:
Anytime someone of diminished maturity, mental, emotional, or intellectual capacity is USED to further someone else who has all these fully developed capacities - it is exploitation.


How do you know that the subject is of diminished maturity? I know an 11 year old that would be much better able to make a reasoned and informed decision about something like this than many 25 year olds. It could be the case that the parents had a long talk with the girl about this, and judged that she understood the issues well enough to make a wise decision, and chose to back her decision. Someone else in the thread mentioned that she is 23 now, and has no regrets. It's jumping the gun to assume that the parents and/or the photographer exploited her.



May 28, 2008 at 12:14 PM
butchM
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p.4 #5 · Is it art or pornography?


marko1953 wrote

The reason why he uses 12/13 year old models was to show the awkwardness of adolescence, "who have one foot in childhood and the other in adulthood." Unsure of themselves as they go through a period of metamorphosis and transition to adulthood.


My question to you and the "artist" in question .... Why was the only way to illustrate the "awkwardness of adolescence" was photographing a nude 13 year-old girl? I raised two daughters. Are you to tell me they were only awkward when unclothed? I think they would disagree with you.

I posed this question earlier in the thread ... Whether or not it is considered art or pornography, how does the existence of this image benefit culture or society? What benefit do these images hold for the model? Do we as feeling, thinking human beings now have a better understanding of the adolescent female psyche because this image is available for viewing. Did posing for these images assist or enable the model to move past her awkwardness?



May 28, 2008 at 12:22 PM
DrewFos
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p.4 #6 · Is it art or pornography?


I think your questions could easily be applied to thousands of images that don't have anything to do with children/nudity/porn, followed shortly thereafter on a debate over censorship.


May 28, 2008 at 01:06 PM
D Smith
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p.4 #7 · Is it art or pornography?


I majored in visual art and saw/studied some pretty questionable stuff during my limited college years from Sturgis, Mann and Hamilton, AMONG others. Some of the photographs were simply beautiful in subject, composition, and tone/color. But, I did not understand why some artists cannot find another way to portray the innocence and beauty of youth without having their "models" nude? I can understand if it is the norm of a particular cultural behavior, but you don't see too much of that outside of National Geographic docu-shoots. The other problem I have is that the subject matter is usually published for capital gain or noteriety. To me, that borders on exploitation when the subject is underage or the family representing the child is "paid off" or they themselves don't understand what they are giving up. Sure my folks took photos of me running around the yard naked as a kid, but they never sold them or posted them in public domain where pervs lurk, and that act in itself truly preserved the innocence of it all.


May 28, 2008 at 02:43 PM
liamh
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p.4 #8 · Is it art or pornography?


D Smith wrote... in public domain where pervs lurk

I hope you're not suggesting FM is full of pervs?



May 28, 2008 at 03:14 PM
o0Hollis0o
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p.4 #9 · Is it art or pornography?


~ art ~

the modern US constitutional definition of obscenity
is from a 1973 court case Miller v. California.
The Court laid out a three part test to declare something obscene.
A jury has to answer yes to each of these 3 questions:
Does the material appeal to prurient interest?
Does it depict sexual behaviour in a patently offensive way?
Does the work lack serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value?


Edited on May 28, 2008 at 03:24 PM



May 28, 2008 at 03:23 PM
j.curtis
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p.4 #10 · Is it art or pornography?


liamh wrote:
I hope you're not suggesting FM is full of pervs?


Thats an understatement. All you have to do is look at the amount of views and comments the nudes get over the other ones!



May 28, 2008 at 03:28 PM
Rattler
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p.4 #11 · Is it art or pornography?


Not even good shot from either an artistic nor technical perspective -- child porn without artistic justification.


May 28, 2008 at 03:36 PM
elader
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p.4 #12 · Is it art or pornography?


trenchmonkey wrote:



Loved that album. Didn't they re-release it with a different cover?



May 28, 2008 at 04:04 PM
paulhodson
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p.4 #13 · Is it art or pornography?


j.curtis wrote:
Thats an understatement. All you have to do is look at the amount of views and comments the nudes get over the other ones!


Interesting - comment on a nude - you are a perv. Hmm



May 28, 2008 at 04:37 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #14 · Is it art or pornography?


liamh wrote:
What about This one is it porn as well?




An interesting argument and one I hoped that someone would make. Laws regulating social behavoir (and every society has them) are based in large part upon the social norms of the society in the geographic area. So if women being topless is the norm in a particular country, laws will reflect that and children in that country would not take any notice and thus not feel exploited. However, if you are in a country where women covering their breasts is the norm and expected, then laws will reflect that AND it is far more likely that a child will be concientious about it and possible feel exploited in this situation.

The "Western" world has been scared by Puritan and later Victorian ideals where the body is bad. The body is a beautiful gift to be admired and cared for ... but then there is a place for humility too. The purpose and use of the image along with the intents of the people involved are what throws the image on one side or the other ... such a hard thing to police ... but, without some regulation, abuse happens.




May 28, 2008 at 04:52 PM
Genes Home
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p.4 #15 · Is it art or pornography?


I have to agree with 1 of 9 and ButchM, and disagree with Surly. Its exploitation to me, even with the agreement and support of the parents, but it is not necessarily pornography / child porn / etc. So attacking the photographer for bad judgement and poor taste and leaving the parents out of the picture is simply a legalistic attitude gone wrong.

From an artistic viewpoint, I don't consider it an outstanding piece of work, nor do I see it as a technically or emotionally valuable example of photography.

I do find it amazing, however, that the photographer got in trouble for having it in his show, but the local newspaper had no problem using it in their article. That alone is a perfect example of what's wrong with the moral and ethical basis of our culture.



May 28, 2008 at 05:10 PM
Sheila
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p.4 #16 · Is it art or pornography?


When I was researching this, I was somewhat taken aback by the fact that the Age newspaper, (a Melbourne national paper) was showing one of the "offending" images on their website. One of the photographer's champions is Sydney art critic, John McDonald has this to say

http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/its-a-triumph-of-the-philistines/2008/05/23/1211183097200.html

Sheila



May 28, 2008 at 05:43 PM
Sheila
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p.4 #17 · Is it art or pornography?


j.curtis wrote:
Thats an understatement. All you have to do is look at the amount of views and comments the nudes get over the other ones!


Exactly!! I have always maintained that this forum is much too "blokey" and because of that, I now rarely post images as young women in various stages of undress are not my forte I have often suggested to Fred that the People forum should be split into two .. those who like the "glam" shots and those who prefer other forms of humanity! But in vain. One certainly cannot dispute that males are definitely in the majority on the People forum and the majority rules I guess.

Sheila



May 28, 2008 at 07:20 PM
Grognard
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p.4 #18 · Is it art or pornography?


Its not necessarily the photo, its the INTENT of the photo to wit: "To arouse or gratify the sexual desire"

43.25. SEXUAL PERFORMANCE BY A CHILD. (a) In this
section:
(1) "Sexual performance" means any performance or part
thereof that includes sexual conduct by a child younger than 18
years of age.
(2) "Sexual conduct" means sexual contact, actual or
simulated sexual intercourse, deviate sexual intercourse, sexual
bestiality, masturbation, sado-masochistic abuse, or lewd
exhibition of the genitals, the anus, or any portion of the female
breast below the top of the areola.
(3) "Performance" means any play, motion picture,
photograph, dance, or other visual representation that can be
exhibited before an audience of one or more persons.
(4) "Produce" with respect to a sexual performance
includes any conduct that directly contributes to the creation or
manufacture of the sexual performance.
(5) "Promote" means to procure, manufacture, issue,
sell, give, provide, lend, mail, deliver, transfer, transmit,
publish, distribute, circulate, disseminate, present, exhibit, or
advertise or to offer or agree to do any of the above.
(6) "Simulated" means the explicit depiction of sexual
conduct that creates the appearance of actual sexual conduct and
during which a person engaging in the conduct exhibits any
uncovered portion of the breasts, genitals, or buttocks.
(7) "Deviate sexual intercourse" and "sexual contact"
have the meanings assigned by Section 43.01.
(b) A person commits an offense if, knowing the character
and content thereof, he employs, authorizes, or induces a child
younger than 18 years of age to engage in sexual conduct or a sexual
performance. A parent or legal guardian or custodian of a child
younger than 18 years of age commits an offense if he consents to
the participation by the child in a sexual performance.
(c) An offense under Subsection (b) is a felony of the
second degree, except that the offense is a felony of the first
degree if the victim is younger than 14 years of age at the time the
offense is committed.
(d) A person commits an offense if, knowing the character
and content of the material, he produces, directs, or promotes a
performance that includes sexual conduct by a child younger than 18
years of age.
(e) An offense under Subsection (d) is a felony of the third
degree, except that the offense is a felony of the second degree if
the victim is younger than 14 years of age at the time the offense is
committed.
(f) It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this
section that:
(1) the defendant was the spouse of the child at the
time of the offense;
(2) the conduct was for a bona fide educational,
medical, psychological, psychiatric, judicial, law enforcement, or
legislative purpose; or
(3) the defendant is not more than two years older than
the child.
(g) When it becomes necessary for the purposes of this
section or Section 43.26 to determine whether a child who
participated in sexual conduct was younger than 18 years of age, the
court or jury may make this determination by any of the following
methods:
(1) personal inspection of the child;
(2) inspection of the photograph or motion picture
that shows the child engaging in the sexual performance;
(3) oral testimony by a witness to the sexual
performance as to the age of the child based on the child's
appearance at the time;
(4) expert medical testimony based on the appearance
of the child engaging in the sexual performance; or
(5) any other method authorized by law or by the rules
of evidence at common law.

Added by Acts 1977, 65th Leg., p. 1035, ch. 381, § 1, eff. June
10, 1977. Amended by Acts 1979, 66th Leg., p. 1976, ch. 779, § 1,
eff. Sept. 1, 1979; Acts 1985, 69th Leg., ch. 530, § 1, eff.
Sept. 1, 1985; Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept.
1, 1994; Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 1415, § 22(b), eff. Sept. 1,
1999; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1005, § 4, 5 eff. Sept. 1, 2003.

Amended by:
Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 593, § 1.20, eff.
September 1, 2007.



May 28, 2008 at 07:29 PM
cretin
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p.4 #19 · Is it art or pornography?


It's interesting that David Hamilton has only been mentioned once in passing and yet he and his work are held in high regard while being, I feel, much closer to child pornography than Bill Henson's work. BTW, I basically think Henson's work is neither pornographic NOR art...almost all of his images wallow in the same depressive dark and dreary tonality.

Edited on May 28, 2008 at 07:35 PM



May 28, 2008 at 07:32 PM
Numfar
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p.4 #20 · Is it art or pornography?


1_of_9 wrote:
Anytime someone of diminished maturity, mental, emotional, or intellectual capacity is USED to further someone else who has all these fully developed capacities - it is exploitation.


By that definition, every pro-athelete who's parents signed them up for little league was exploited. Seems to me that the 'used to further someone else' is the part of the statement above where the logic fails, though to be fair, I don't think any of us know enough about the family or the daughter to make any accurate determination, though that doesn't seem to stop the neo-Victorians.


Edited on May 28, 2008 at 08:45 PM



May 28, 2008 at 08:43 PM
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