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Archive 2008 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?

  
 
robsteve
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p.3 #1 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


rfkiii wrote:
Thanks robsteve. I will check these out. There was an eBay auction for a Leica 28mm ver 2 store demo that sold Sunday for $971. I was 20 minutes late.



That Ebay auction had a few things odd, such as it being relisted and I think I have seen this seller sell this lens before. There may be a simple explanation such as the seller has access to some Leica demo stock and is just selling it off one at a time. BTW, the lens listed was a three cam converted to ROM, not an original ROM, so it could be this store had some new/old stock converted to ROM or it is some of Leica's ols stock converted to ROM. Optically and mechanically there was no difference in this lens whether it was three cam or ROM. Both were made at the same time.



Apr 07, 2008 at 06:25 AM
Orio
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p.3 #2 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


The broom picture does not show any lens defect.
If there is a defect then it's obviously of the FA adapter.
It might have told the shooter that the focus was on the center but it's obviously evident that the focus is really on the left, and what is on the right is blurred simply because it's more distant from the camera.

And this shows I think how carefully we must take opinions posted about lenses when they are given without image support. A simply misunderstood image may lead to undeserved bad reputation for the lens. In this case we can see for ourselves, and verify if the provided comment is correct or not, but when there is no picture to verify, we should really wait before drawing any conclusions.



Edited on Apr 07, 2008 at 04:04 PM



Apr 07, 2008 at 04:01 PM
jonboring
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p.3 #3 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Folks modifying the 5D mirror and proper adapter thickness for Contax lenses has been discussed here for years. If you search the archives, you will find dozens of threads.

The 5D is an odd ball. Apparently, body tolerances are such that sometimes the mirror hangs and sometimes it doesn't. This also effects the correct flange distance. If the adapter is thick, you may avoid the mirror hanging but you may lose infinity focus. Consensus here is that most 5D's need 1.42mm thick adapter for infinity focus - though this is not true all the time - again body tolerances effect this. You just have to try some adapters on your body and see what results you get. However, don't think a thick adapter solves all the problems because many of us started with 1.5mm adapters, found we didn't get infinity focus and then searched for thinner ones. Also, if the adapter is too thick, again on some bodies, image quality suffers all around.

Also, shaving the mirror does absolutely no harm to the body unless you damage the body in the process. The biggest mistake people make is breaking the mirror and having to replace it ($350) or allowing mirror shavings / dust to fall on the sensor/AA filter. The dust comes off no problem - you just have to clean the sensor real good. If done correctly, there is no harm done and no affect on the camera and you can use all the Contax lenses without issues.



Apr 07, 2008 at 04:31 PM
Conner999
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p.3 #4 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Orio - You might be right re: the adapter and the your are right about the need to see a pics. That said, the ZF 28 is known to have odd field curvature that is a 'characteristic' of the lens. Depends on you want to use it

RE: the 5D. When I used Rob Steve's (now my...) 28 ROM on my 5D it worked fine. Note - I now use a 1Ds2 - got fed up with 5D. My copy of the 5D had issues, but not when it camera to mirror tolerance. It worked with every lens I tossed at it - some being unknowns (?) on the PP site and some Ns like the 28/2.8 latest.

Bear in mind, that all an N means is as few as one person reported that their 28 had an issue clearing their 5D. Most adapter makers machine their adapters a hair thin to 'assure' infinity focus. If they do this and/or the adapter is crap and/or your 5D is one that's prone to jamming if looked at sideways, you could have an issue.

I have heard no 1st person accounts of the latest 28 and a 5D having an issue, so it's not a wide issue. That said, if the Gods sneer in your general direction and you have a problem you can:

1. SHAVE THE MIRROR. I would only do this if you plan on keeping the 5D for some and on using a lot of iffy lenses (typically UWA) on the body as well. As Jon says, no harm done but to do it for one If there are alternatives...

Before we look at options 2 & 3, bear in mind that if your mirror catches, it is typically a matter of fractions of a millimeter. In many cases the mirror will 'power thru', just touching the element housing enough to slow it down - resulting in a dark line at the bottom of the pic.

It can literally come down to the thickness of the paint on the rear element housing. Had that issue on my 1Ds2 with an already modified Leica 19mm that had the filed down area re-painted. It was, again, a lens borrowed from RobSteve and not mine to strip the paint from. He used it on a 1.3x crop 1D.

If the mirror catches, it's no biggy. Power down the camera, unmount the lens, power up and hit the shutter release if the mirror doesn't drop at power up. Ok, now for options 2 -3:

2. SWITCH ADAPTERS - some just suck. Too thin, too thick, chips (if FC) all over the place, loose parts, not flat, etc. Just because you have a small lathe and milling machine doesn't mean you should ever use it. Now there is a nice Xmas list addition for my wife to think about.. ;>

3. SHIM THE ADAPTER. Most adapters come in two sections screwed together. Unscrew the ring on the lens side (for Leica held on by 6 screws) and place 1 layer of metallic duct tape (only the metallic type) between the two halves and screw the lens-side ring back on.

Work the screws like tire lug nuts - tighten them a bit at a time from opposite sides of 'the clock' until they are all snug. The idea, like changing a spare, is to ensure the ring is flat and torqued evenly.

Try the lens. If no improvement, repeat with a second layer. Lather, rinse repeat until happy. One layer may very likely do it.

Some bright spark indicated that metallic duct tape is consistently 0.001" thick (or is it 0.0001"? - don't have any here at moment). The idea is to shim the adapter just enough to clear the 5D's @#$ 'molded and put together with oven mitts' tolerances. For a lens like the 28mm (IF you even have an issue) you'll find it will take VERY little shimming to do the job.

Note, that if you are willing to forgo infinity focus - Darn near ANY lens can be made to clear a 5D with a thick enough shim (brass, etc).

If it fixes the mirror clearance but infinity is screwed up. Try using something thinner (Scotch tape?). When happy, measure the thickness of the resulting modified adapter and use that reference when buying adapters.

My advice - give one a try. You'll LOVE the glass and IF you have an issue (which I highly doubt), it will be by a gnats-hair and easily overcome.

Edited on Apr 08, 2008 at 08:11 AM



Apr 08, 2008 at 07:55 AM
Conner999
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p.3 #5 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Quick Leica 28 shot. Handheld, ISO 100, 1DS2, F2.8. Downsized jpeg from 21x14" RAW, NO USM.







Apr 08, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Conner999
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p.3 #6 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Screen capture of above at 100% via CS3 loupe. Again, NO USM.

USM of 80/1/2 over-sharpens it.

Oh, blew the red channel on tennis ball and had to pull exposure back a tad - got lazy but shot may give some idea of center performance WO, lack of CA, bokeh and effect of floating element. As much as a compressed sliver of a 21x14" 48MB RAW shot can ever show anything anyway.

This same shot with 100 macro ZF showed same res, but ZF had CA on every reflective surface of typewriter.






Edited on Apr 08, 2008 at 11:25 AM



Apr 08, 2008 at 11:22 AM
Conner999
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p.3 #7 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


May come across bit better than loupe shot.

100% crop slice, not screen capture this time.







Apr 08, 2008 at 11:31 AM
rfkiii
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p.3 #8 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Many cheaper 28s are great in center, awesome stopped down across the frame, great at mid-longer distances or great up close with a floating element. The 28 II is all them in one package.

I hope so because I purchased the one from Camera West that robsteve posted.

If I am getting the Leica, can I ignore the Nikon 28 thread?

Edited on Apr 10, 2008 at 07:11 PM



Apr 10, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Conner999
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p.3 #9 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Congrats. Report back what you think when she arrives.


Apr 11, 2008 at 06:30 AM
mcbroomf
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p.3 #10 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Conner999 wrote:
.
.
.
Possible sources
-----------

A good place to start would be posting a WTB here, on photo.net and at (my first stop) www.getdpi.com. Some ideas that seeped into my brain this am between sips of coffee as to where to look:

1. Adorama had/has one for $1500 -mixed rep as a 2nd hand seller. Bit spendy.
.
.
.

As Connor noticed Adorama had a late 28mm Elmarit for sale, and I bought it. As he noticed it was a little high in price but advertised as a mint demo, model 11333 which is the latest rev. The s/n was 38*******, ie a very recent copy.

After a week with no action (nothing on my CC and no email) I sent them an email and was asked to wait 24-48 hrs. I sent a 2nd email 2 days later and got no reply by the following day so I called. I got through to Alan last Thursday who quickly processed my order, and in fact dropped the shipping charges.

The lens arrived today. It was a noticeably used version 1 (model 11204) s/n 29***** with no rear cap!!!!

It will be interesting to see their response and find out if "my" lens is still there.

Mike



Apr 15, 2008 at 07:12 PM
pdmphoto
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p.3 #11 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


I agree, that was a poorly derived observation. Any lens would have the same result. To test for a flat field you need a flat grid.Here's an example test for flat field with a macro. For a wide angle, a large area of grass or concrete works well:

http://www.imaginenature.com/audio/FL2K4742.jpg

Orio wrote:
The broom picture does not show any lens defect.
If there is a defect then it's obviously of the FA adapter.
It might have told the shooter that the focus was on the center but it's obviously evident that the focus is really on the left, and what is on the right is blurred simply because it's more distant from the camera.

And this shows I think how carefully we must take opinions posted about lenses when they are given without image support. A simply misunderstood image may lead to undeserved bad reputation for the lens. In this case we can see for
...Show more



Apr 15, 2008 at 10:09 PM
rfkiii
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p.3 #12 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Hi Conner999,

I received the Leica 28mm. Fabulous lens as advertised. However, the mirror hangs as the lists at 16-9 and Pebble Place indicate. I can fire f2.8 & f4 no problem, but from f5.6 on down, it hangs.

Is there someone who does mirror shaves? I've seen the question raised but I don't recall seeing an answer.



Apr 21, 2008 at 06:34 PM
Conner999
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p.3 #13 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Aaargh. Hang on a minute -- the mirror hangs as you stop down? That makes NO sense. In no way should changing aperture cause the mirror to hang. I could see if as you focus towards infinity and the rear element's modest rearward extension (as happens with the 28) caused the mirror to hand on your 5D.

Check your adapter. IF you're you're using a confirmation adapter that isn't TIGHT on the lens and fitting snugly and locked into the body, it could shift just enough to shift the contacts and give the camera a BF.

If the lock up happens as you stop down vs. focus towards infinity - it is NOT the mirror. It's something with the adapter.

Something is causing the distance between the rear-element shroud and the tip of the mirror to change ever so slightly as you go thru the movement of shifting the aperture ring, causing a lock-up on your 5D - that should not happen. Period.
Even if the lens+adapter combo rotates a tad because it hasn't been adjusted snug (see pebble place for instructions), that distance to the mirror should not change - unless the adapter is not machined flat (or is otherwise bug**red).

If it's a chipped adapter, it's almost likely the electrical connection - potentially aggravated by an an adapter that is also not flat (lens shifts, contact between electrical pins on body and contacts on lens increases just enough to cause an error)

Some tests:

Test 1: Obvious one. Try with another BRAND adapter - a non-chipped one. make sure it is a TIGHT fit on the lens and when mounted it fits snugly and locks. Kindai/CameraQuest are the gold standard in non-chipped units.

Test 2: If a confirmation unit, clean contacts of adapter and retry - again, same comments on tight secure fit.

Test 3: Get it to happen (no harm) with current adapter then STOP. Power off the camera, remove the lens (leaving aperture where it was), power on w/o a lens and if the mirror doesn't return at power-up, just touch the shutter button to get it to return.
Now power off, remount the lens making sure it fits snugly and locks and that the adapter is a TIGHT fit on lens (again aperture at F5.6 or where ever it was when it locked), power on the camera and trip the shutter. Good chance will be fine.

Your 5D may be a marginal unit re: mirror position/size, but if the problem occurs when you say it does, it ain't the camera or the lens. Pham Min Son IIRC does shave mirrors, but don't even consider it until you rule out your adapter.

Sadly too many machine shops spitting out adapters via ebay these days. It pays to pony-up if you can with one GOOD adapter dedicated to each lens and adjusted to be a TIGHT fit on same.

Edited on Apr 21, 2008 at 10:23 PM



Apr 21, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Conner999
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p.3 #14 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


IF you made a error in your post and it hangs as you focus outward, it could be addressed via a new adapter. Most adapter makers machine their units a tad on the thin side to 'guarantee' infinity focus.
This can cause issues with the 5D. If such is the case, you can shim the adapter with scotch or metallic duct tape (between the two halves of the adapter) or use a different adapter.

Bear in mind, that the difference between an hang and a no-hang (actually failing to return to ready) can be as little as 0.001"- so even a strip of tape can make a big difference. A little micrometer is a very handy tool if you use alternate lenses.



Apr 21, 2008 at 10:29 PM
JimBuchanan
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p.3 #15 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


@ rfkiii:

I don't shoot with a 5D, however, I've had 2 examples of the Leica 28mm Elmarit, latest optical version. One had a plastic shroud around the rear element and one didn't. Before you go and grind the 5D mirror, check your lens out for this shroud, which could possibly be removed and give the clearance you need.

And, yes, you should be proud of that acquisition, I know I am happy to have mine. The test for infinity focus should be of far off objects, like telephone poles at f/2.8. Good luck.



Apr 21, 2008 at 10:56 PM
rfkiii
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p.3 #16 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Conner999, you are correct. This happens at Infinity. I don't use f2.8 or f4 at Infinity so my subject matter was different for those apertures. I generally do not shoot wide open either. I generally do not shoot anything closer than Infinity. Hopefully this explains why I am having trouble articulating my observations of the this lens and the Zeiss for certain situations.

The L28 would represent a departure from the the type of lens I normally seek out. All of my lenses must pass my Infinity inspection which the Zeiss 28 ZF did not. Turns out the Zeiss 28 ZF is optimized for other shooting situations and it's my bad for not researching it further although I suppose, this thread could be considered as part of my research.

Your description of the L28 was compelling and has proven absolutely accurate (to within sniffing distance of Infinity which obviously I have not had a chance to verify yet).

Also, I was a little disoriented as I have never had a mirror clearance problem with my 5D including the C/Y 28/2.8 which seems to hang on so many others. I was posting in haste and panic mode because I only have a very very short time left to evaluate the lens.

I got the lens a week ago but Camera West sent an incorrect adapter that wouldn't even screw down onto the lens. So, I had to pivot and order the happypagehk Leica adapter and paid for Express delivery. This adapter fits tightly and seems professional in every way. Then in the meantime, the Camera West owner comes up with a used Novaflex that would fit the lens and says he would be glad to send it out. He was out yesterday so I need to call him today. Would the Novaflex be a good brand to try? If I ask him to send it and with shipping time in mind, I am afraid I may wear out my welcome as to a return policy.

If I got got a non-chipped adapter and since I shoot mostly at Infinity, wouldn't all I really need to do is set lens to Infinity, stop down to taste, and fire away? Wouldn't have to worry about AF confirm in those situations? Am I missing something here?

I am leaning toward a mirror shave since this would be a fix for multiple lenses am I correct? I am no longer concerned about the selling condition of my 5D. It has some scrapes on it, you know from using it in the field, which would lower the resale to a point where keeping it would be the better financial decision since it still operates as it did the day it came out of the box.

Jim,

The shroud on mine appears to be metal. Dang.

I'd rather grind on the 5D than on the lens although the lens looks like it would be easier to do. I want to amend something I said above about Infinity. I was able to get a glimpse of it. The mirror hangs when I attempt to lock it up (MLU). I have a couple of shots where the shutter fires with the mirror hung half way into the frame. That top half of the image not blocked by the mirror is unbelievably detailed. And the exposure seemed on the button (no EC needed) unlike the Zeiss' which all seem to confound the 5D.



Edited on Apr 22, 2008 at 06:34 AM



Apr 22, 2008 at 06:26 AM
Conner999
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p.3 #17 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Ok - these issues are easier to address. The mirror is being an SOB at the top of it's arc during it's swing.
As an aside: it also needn't be hanging (when hanging on shutter trip vs. MLU). When very close to clearing, they usually are actually plowing thru their complete swing, but are slowed down just enough from the grazing contact so as not to be able to get clear of the sensor's field of view when the shutter trips.

1. Novoflex. Many people argue they are worth it in that they use the same Leica-side hardware as does Leica - same parts supplier. That said, I know of at least one such adapter that literally came apart at the seams and was sent back to Germany in a Ziploc. Not kosher for an adapter, new, that costs in the $300 snack bracket. My vote - pass on it.

2. Rudolph (happypagehk) makes great product. Just adjust the adapter so it fits TIGHTLY.

3. Chipped or non-chipped makes no difference on infinity focus - it's the thickness of the adapter that can be an issue with the #$%^ finicky 5D. An adaptyer like HK's encoded for that specific lens (which he does free) will make life easier when looking for pics, etc.

4. Setting at infinity and stopping way down may help if you are VERY close to achieving infinity focus. Have never tried it.

5. The easiest & fastest fix for the mirror hang so you can test the lens properly:

- Get some metal duct (not Duck) tape (the real aluminium stuff used for metal ducts ) it's apparently 0.001" thick.
- Unscrew the Leica side of the adapter from it's Canon side. Use the right sized screwdriver and take it easy - the screw heads are soft and you don't want to cam-out with the screwdriver and mangle them (I @#$ hate Philips screws for that reason).
- Stick one layer (no overlap) of thin strips (say 4) of the tape on the inside of the Leica side of the adapter. Make sure you get all 4 quadrants of the compass (N, S, E, W) if you will.
- Trim off any excess on the inside or outside of the Leica 'ring' with a single-sided razor, X-acto, etc.
- Re-screw the two halves together. Don't over tighten - just snug (you may need to screw/unscrew more than once). Sscrew them in liek lug nuts on a wheel - 9 oclock, then 3, then 12, then 6, etc.

You've now move the lens 0.001" further away from the mirror.

Mount lens and try. Given you are just hanging, 0.001" (- the miniscule compression from the two mount halves) may just do the trick.
If not quite, rinse & repeat above with a 2nd layer. Once you get it working, remove the screws, put a drop of Loctite on each and snug back down (ignore this step if you intend to shave mirror so you can remove tape after mirror shave, THEN use Loctite).

Scotch tape will also work, but Duct tape is far stickier. Can also use thin paper, etc, but a self-adhesive and very very thin material of consistent thickness is easier.

Now, the above will make infinity MORE difficult, but at least you could test lens.

The best long-term bet, as you suggest, is to tweak the mirror. This will allow you to mount damn near anything -- and it also doesn't make much material removal either. Modifying the lens is a bit riskier and given that you have 'one of those' 5Ds will be of little value with other lenses. Besides the law of averages would imply that the more lenses you modify, the greater the chance of a Dremel head or file inadvertently passing across a rear element..;<

Another option is to have a local camera repair dude order you a spare mirror, modify that mirror (no risk of junk in camera) thyself with a file or Dremel, then have the same shop swap the two (they are just glued on). If you re-sell, you can give buyer option of modified or non-modified.

Once you get to look at the entire frame ;>, you'll love with that lens can deliver - it's just too bad your camera is being such a PITA.

Edited on Apr 22, 2008 at 12:13 PM



Apr 22, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Don Clary
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p.3 #18 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Another option is to have a local camera repair dude order you a spare mirror, modify that mirror (no risk of junk in camera) thyself with a file or Dremel, then have the same shop swap the two (they are just glued on). If you re-sell, you can give buyer option of modified or non-modified.

If you get the mirror out of the camera, I can cut it, extremely accurately, at no cost. See these old archived discussions. Look at my comments page one, and especially bottom of page 2:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/297063/1




Apr 22, 2008 at 06:45 PM
rfkiii
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p.3 #19 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Hi Conner999,

Are you an EMT in your regular life?

Thanks for your help. I have contacted a local shop who does repairs locally. He had never heard of shaving the mirror but is up for anything. He mentioned that if he were to do so, he would remove the mirror first. He had me send some links to illustrations of mirror shave I told him could be found on the Internet. He'll get back to me shortly.

I believe Rudolf guarantees Infinity focus so I am afraid if I open up that adapter, I may void the warranty. If I get the Novaflex adpater out here just to test the lens and it allows the mirror to clear, at least I can make some better judgments. If the Novaflex is thicker and I lose Infinity focus, I can send back. It is clear that the mirror MUST be shaved.

Don,

If the local shop flinches at doing the actual shaving, I'll have them remove the mirror and will overnight to you. I hate to place any kind of condition on your kind offer, but I have a trip to Moab coming up in less than 3 weeks whereby I'd love to have this worked out. If that won't be feasable for you, we can do it after the trip. I will do this regardless of whether I keep this particular lens.



Edited on Apr 23, 2008 at 07:36 AM



Apr 23, 2008 at 07:25 AM
Conner999
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p.3 #20 · ZF28/2, Contax 28/2 and 28/2.8?


Me, an EMT ? An accident victim's worst nightmare...;>

I don't have a 5D in front of me anymore (and mine never had clearance issues - just #$% focus ones), but take a look and see if the bottom of the mirror clears the plastic frame holding it. The mirror itself is held in place by some silicone and 4 rubber feet. How do we know - some people had the silicone fail and the mirror fall out during the 5Ds early intro.

If it doesn't clear, you'll need to file the bottom of the plastic holder itself as well (see link). http://forum.manualfocus.org/viewtopic.php?pid=72123. The other option could be to remove mirror, cut it and reposition it flush with the bottom of it's frame.

The most crucial aspect of the whole process is keeping crap out of the camera. Some sort of mask out of paper, saran wrap or masking tape and the use of a small section of tubing taped to a vacuum hose for cleaning during process should help.

I'd also use a hand file - a Dremel will spew crap everywhere. There is an Asian site (Japan I think) that shows how to do it in detail. Great pictorial how-to.

If you've got a willing camera shop, head over there with some data, a case of beer (for after, maybe 1 before to steady the nerves) and go for it.

There is no assurance Novoflex will clear enough for you to test lens. It would have to be thicker than HPHK unit. If they are willing to measure it's thickness exactly and you can compare that to your HPHK unit (buy a cheap micrometer) .. Otherwise, you're wasting money.

HPHK assures infinity because he, like others, make the adapters a tad thin - which only aggravates issues with iffy 5Ds. Taking a unit apart is simple and leaves no trace unless you mangle the screw heads. You could buy 3-4 of his units for the cost of one new Novoflex...

IF you take one apart, I can't stress again how soft those screw heads are. Use the right sized screw driver, press it into the socket FIRMLY and turn slowly while maintaining FIRM pressure. They come right out. If you mangle the head - it will be on the initial turn try and will just mean you can't add a shim (easily). Adapter is still fine for use.

Shaving the mirror is a PITA, but lenses like the L 28 Mod II, the 19/2.8 Mod II and others would make it worthwhile until such time as/if you move to a 1 series (big assumption here).




Apr 23, 2008 at 08:07 AM
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