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Archive 2007 · The death of the local camera store

Studio58
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p.7 #1 · The death of the local camera store

My local dealers here in Australia get hardly any of my business. The prices at B&H/ Adorama are massively lower than what I can get here. For instance, this financial year I have purchased the 16-35 EfII, 300 2.8 is, 85 1.2 II as well as other minor items such as flash cards.
Having said that, I did buy 3 new bodies locally, but when you consider the money they missed out on it is not insignificant. Add to that I do all my own printing & no longer buy film.
Just the film & processing was about $20,000 per year..... ouch, wouldn't want to be one of those guys. That said though, no doubt they make a heap more than me !!!

Feb 05, 2008 at 10:56 PM

braddo_99
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p.7 #2 · The death of the local camera store

I have always thought there is a hybrid model of store that could be successful.

The store is fully stocked with demo pieces of the full lineup of (whatever), say lenses, flash brackets etc. Customers can come in and hold them in their hands, select the item they want and then order it in the store for next day delivery.

Obviously, that store would be paying rent and salaries for a few informed "consultants", but they would not have to manage inventory or have local cash.

They could work with a third party for their fulfillment - even a "full service" online dealer like B&H. With say a 2-5% markup from the lowest online price I would definitely bring my business there.

Best of both worlds, local faces and expertise, a full selection that you can touch and try plus (almost) instant gratification. The tightest shipping would be key, like a previous poster, I'm super "instant gratification" when it comes to gadgets. I shop for months, and then when I finally make a decision, I want it NOW. :-)

Returns could just pipe through B&H, who are already quite good. This would add a day or two lag to customer service, but it would be consistently good.

Such a store could also work as a consignment shop, where like minded photographers sell/trade their used gear with a transaction fee. Tougher sell, but could work with a largish local population.

Also, I agree with a previous poster that local stores need to do more value add, such as training classes etc. Even this could be "outsourced" to the local community college with some type of pre-negotiated price.

I think this model was tried with the old Gateway stores, but I think that failed because, who needs to touch a computer to know if it's right for them? Items like clothing, tools, etc that are very tactile and experience oriented would be the best candidates for this model.

Thoughts?

Feb 06, 2008 at 10:20 AM

Nathan Whitchu
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p.7 #3 · The death of the local camera store

The problem with this is the cost of overnight shipping, which is not cheap at $30-$40 for a couple pounds and it goes up from there. Making only a 2-5% markup they would have to be doing a lot of business, and probably be in such a large city that there are already stores with these items in stock. I live in upstate NY near the capital, Albany, and I doubt there would be enough of a market to keep a business with this strategy open. You're talking about keeping what might amount to a couple hundred thousand dollars of product in stock (Canon's lens selection alone would be an insane amount of money) that will never sell, because if they sell it no one can play with it.

Feb 06, 2008 at 01:57 PM

borderlight
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p.7 #4 · The death of the local camera store

Doesn't this entire post boil down to what best makes sense for you? All the logic in the world is not going to necessarily sway buying habits. I don't see any advantage to buying equipment for more than you have to, but others might feel differently for whatever the reason.

Feb 06, 2008 at 02:36 PM

hdfxr3
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p.7 #5 · The death of the local camera store

Craig is correct, you photographers have put small local dealers out of business. Your desire for no service, since you know it all, and cheap prices..has led you to back of the book, or internet for your products. Folks still get what they pay for....the next time when you get the wrong product and are charged twice for the same item etc. from you mail order outit..don't come crying to local shop for help. Todays consumer needs more help now than years ago..the switch from film to digital has steep learning curve..but has many great rewards for the average photographer. Most of you have not worked for yourself and don't have a clue how much margin you need to make on a product to pay your overhead. We can't sell products at what we pay for them and pay ourselves to pass out info to folks and have them mailorder items. Most of us in photo business are not in it for the money, its not there #1, but in it for our love of photography and seeing folks get the pictures of family etc. they want.

Feb 06, 2008 at 07:29 PM

Peter Figen
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p.7 #6 · The death of the local camera store

It's easy to say that we should always buy from the cheapest source everytime, but there are many times when, as a working professional, you need, I mean really need, a piece of equipment, a rental, a repair, a loaner, or expendables, right now. If all you've done is patronized a super discount store thousands of miles away, your local store will not be inclined to help you when you need it most. Every time I go to Monterey I make sure to buy something, anything, from Myrick Photographic and cruise over to Camera West to see what Sean has gotten in. Even though Samy's is my "local" store, these examples set a perfect example for what a local store should strive to be.

Feb 07, 2008 at 01:46 AM

Ghost
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p.7 #7 · The death of the local camera store

Amazon.com and B&H served me well in the past. No reason to use local stores. Overpriced. Although when FutureShop has a sale, its prices will blow away the above two stores.

Internet forums like this one have tremendous information that the store clerk can ever hope nor dream of.

Feb 08, 2008 at 05:23 PM

jlc61
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p.7 #8 · The death of the local camera store

hdfxr3 wrote:
Craig is correct, you photographers have put small local dealers out of business. Your desire for no service, since you know it all, and cheap prices..has led you to back of the book, or internet for your products.

It's not just photographers that put small buisness out of business - when I go into many small locla stores I see Costco/Sam's/Staples supplies instead of stuff from the now almost non-existant local staioner; and when I go to Costco I see plenaty of businesses stocking up on stuff they could buy at alocal small business instead. Face it, we all want to save money (it's the rational economic thing to do) when it makes sense.

hdfxr3 wrote:
Todays consumer needs more help now than years ago..the switch from film to digital has steep learning curve..but has many great rewards for the average photographer.

I disagree - even going from ancient A1's to dSLR's.

hdfxr3 wrote:
Most of you have not worked for yourself and don't have a clue how much margin you need to make on a product to pay your overhead. We can't sell products at what we pay for them and pay ourselves to pass out info to folks and have them mailorder items.

That's true; but it's the result of a changing business model. Unless you add value for the extra pricing then there really is no reason to pay more.

Unfortunately, many peopel do not see the extra value - I used to deal exclusively with a small loal video game store; even when i paid mre, becasue I kenw if I wanted a hot game or system the owner would get it for me, and if a game was crap e'd warn me before I bought it - and he generally didn't carry what he considered crap games. His staff was young kids who were gamers - so they were up on the latest and very helpful. Sad to say, too few people valued that and he eventually closed up shop,

Feb 08, 2008 at 06:44 PM

hdfxr3
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p.7 #9 · The death of the local camera store

If our government would make all mailorder or internet folks charge sales tax to end customers when products were sold..based on mailing address..it would come long way to putting all of us on same plaing field. most internet and mailorder business is done to avoid paying local sales tax. in most cases it amounts to 8% or more. all states are missing out on revenue from internet sales. if you paid sales taxes on mdse. plus high shipping and handling fees, you'd find local prices very competitive. pay your money..take your choice. some of you folks never learn!

Feb 08, 2008 at 07:47 PM

wordfool
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p.7 #10 · The death of the local camera store

Good point... the free lunch won't last forever and those shady NY stores (not B&H, of course) will be gone in short order once their tax-free ride has ended. However, I think this is gonna be something that takes years to hash out between states for fear of running afoul of inter-state commerce laws.

It would suck, but it would be fair and would in some ways simply be enforcing existing state laws covering use taxes -- you buy gear out of state, tax-free, then you still owe "use tax" to the state you use your gear in the majority of the time (not sure it's the case for all states but it is in CA). Most people don't bother and probably would never get caught but I know some pros that pay up because it's the law, simple as that. Has been here in CA since 2003.

Feb 08, 2008 at 10:04 PM

hdfxr3
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p.7 #11 · The death of the local camera store

The mdse from coming from out of state would not be hard to track, mailing address's, shipping records, etc. and the taxes could be funneled back to respective states..or for the fact of the matter..let ups or usps collect tax upon receipt..i don't think they would mind as long as they get % for collecting it. if this process was put in effect..you'd see a much more balanced sales between mailorder and internet vs local sales. all of us think we are getting real deal by not paying taxes on mdse. its in our nature! i wonder if states realize how much revenue they are losing to mail order business..if the knew they would take action!
this has been pain in the ass for us local retailers for many years..and put many of us out of business....not fair competition..for local folks. the giants in the industry coninue to prosper..while independensts get the crumbs..and only get visited by bulk of photographers ..when they are between rock and hard place. they come in to my business..when their oder is lost and won;t get t o them in time..and throw us a few peanuts..while their big bucks are spent ...mail order or via internet. i know who my good customers are, loyal etc. and bend over backwards to assist them when nexessary! Been in the business for 30 yrs...but not for much longer! most people exhibit Wal mart mentality..and are leaving with mdse. they know nothing about. amen

Feb 09, 2008 at 08:04 AM

photorebel
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p.7 #12 · The death of the local camera store

The nearest local camera store to me, is a 2 hour drive. I live between, Memphis, TN and Jackson, MS.
I have bought from stores in Jackson, and in Memphis.
I have not bought from them in years and years.

Then Wolf Camera, in Memphis, Tenn...shipped me a demo FE2, instead of a new body like I ordered. A demo that was badly scratched, and looked well used.
I'd been in the store the previous week, saw the demo..told them I wanted a new body. No problem, they had some coming in the next week, and could ship me one. Just call back next week. I did, ordered a new FE2, they shipped the same demo.
When I called, I was told I was just difficult to please, there was nothing wrong with the camera. They never denied they shipped the demo, only insisted the demo was fine. I can't see how they missed the point. They very grudgingly accepted a return. (Wolf had a 2 week return policy anyway) They were rude to me, tried to sell me a demo at a new price. And lost a customer forever. I've not even bought a lens cap from Wolf since.

So why should I buy from a store that is not in my town, have it shipped, pay more money...and get actually LESS service than from an online dealer.
And I never went in a store, took up a salesman's time, handled a camera, than bought online.
However, after being sold demo cameras at new prices, twice..they were defective. Once I was allowed to return it, but they didn't have another sample in stock..would take weeks to get a replacement. The other time, was just beyond the 2 week return period..so they wouldn't accept a return..but shipped it off for me for warranty repair.
So WHY should I buy from B&M stores? I don't even have one in my town. I paid more, didn't complain..if I got customer service. But the one really good store I patronized, went out of business..years ago.
Since I have to have everything shipped anyway...or drive two hours, I just go the internet route.

Feb 09, 2008 at 12:53 PM

Mac Swenson
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p.7 #13 · The death of the local camera store

On the contrary to a number of the people here, I visited my local camera store today and had a great experience. I needed some small stuff, just a few lens caps and a couple filters. I went in, walked right up to the counter and was greeted by a smiling man, who asked if he could assist me with anything. I told him the 5 items, and he got them from behind the counter, but when he brought the filter he came back with a few different ones and asked a few clarifying questions about what I was using it for etc... I ended up saving about 10$ on the filter because he recommended me one that I wasn't considering, not because it wasn't good, but because I didn't know what it was or what it did. I ended up paying slightly less for all the stuff than I would have payed at B and H, not even including shipping. I was also thrilled by just going in and talking with a knowledgeable photographer and sales person about some of the new stuff that was coming out. While I probably won't buy anything really expensive, like a new body or lens from them because of the price, I will certainly be back when I need small things or even when I need prints.

Feb 14, 2008 at 04:27 PM

Josh Evilsizor
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p.7 #14 · The death of the local camera store

I stopped by our local camera store today and got tons of help.... I bought a Elinchrom light kit, a new/used 20D and some backgrounds..... Not only did the knock down the price on the 20D for me, they also threw in a free canon camera bag..... Whens the last time B&H or Adorama did that for you?

Feb 15, 2008 at 04:58 PM

Sam tran
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p.7 #15 · The death of the local camera store

I walk-in a local store one day, asking if they have the Canon 250D/500D close-up lens filter, just to see which one I really needed and I know the price would be at least 15% higher than B&H, plus the local tax (not including the S&H, because I got free shipping). Well, they didn't have it and told me to order & wait for 2 weeks. I can just go online order from B&H and get it in 3-5 days, much cheaper!

Feb 17, 2008 at 10:51 AM

The Image
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p.7 #16 · The death of the local camera store

Im guilty, i live in california but buy all my gear at B&H in NY

Feb 19, 2008 at 05:29 PM

tomdi
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p.7 #17 · The death of the local camera store

I guess it all depends on where you live. Here in Luxembourg smaller shops are closing down very fast. Some of them have/had very qualified people working there, but there is the price complaint. I don't mind spending a bit more when I get a good service in a local shop but I start to think differently when prices are 5% to 10% higher than if I order it online, and they have very little stock which adds approx 2 weeks waiting time.

The bigger shops are a bit less expensive, but their people have very little knowledge about photography and they don't really care about you as a customer. Quality service is inexistant here.

That's why I order nearly everything online. It's a shame, I miss the contact with the seller, the discussions we used to have and the piece of advice that would make me try new gear.....

Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10 AM

jefft
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p.7 #18 · The death of the local camera store

I seldom even look at buying locally. a few months ago I needed a 580Flash to replace one going in for warranty work and the price was $70.00 more than Amazon.
I offered the listed price plus pay the extra local tax but they refused. Said they can get the higher price so they prefer not to sell it. A click of the mouse and I had it by 10:00am the next day. It seems if Amazon, B&H etc are happy selling at a lower price a local store could do the same and increase from local to national business and make a whole lot more money.

Feb 25, 2008 at 12:25 PM

D Smith
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p.7 #19 · The death of the local camera store

Jefft pretty much sums up my initial comment about buying locally vs internet/mailhouse. Most stores following MAP pricing do not have the "preference" of selling it for less, they can't afford to! And sure, the local store could sell it for less, not honoring MAP pricing, but then they would be selling it for less than what they paid for it. There is little to no margin in hardgoods folks. By the time you order it, pay for shipping, educate your staff, and then spend time selling it, there is nothing left. You only hope they accessorize and come back for prints. As far as Amazon is concerned, good luck with your repair/defective/questions. We used to have a stocked store, but you can't afford to have your money tied up in goods that don't move because people will pay less online (and usually for worse service.) Then when someone is in a pinch (as mentioned above) they bitch because they can't walk into my store and get a bulb for their PL1250 that blew out during a wedding like they used to be able to, and they storm out yelling how they will have to order it online, the very reason why I can't afford to stock them anymore...

Feb 25, 2008 at 06:28 PM

nfr5111
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p.7 #20 · The death of the local camera store

Funny, I just moved to the greater Denver area and immediately found the lack of good shops in the area. I went from an area that had some great smaller shops (Hunt's Manchester and Melrose, Cameraland in Nashua, NH, Newtonville Camera) and have to say, its kind of depressing out here.

I went to a certain shop in Boulder....the staff there seems to be a bit full of themselves. They barely gave me the time of day when I told them I was in looking for a D3, I asked a few questions and the guy got the answer wrong then acted like he was doing me a favor when I asked another question. The kicker was when I asked to see a lens I was also interested in, and the guy literally sighed at me and got the lens. I was so annoyed by his attitude that I bought a CF card, pulled the $5000 in cash I had on me to get a D3 out to pay for it, and made sure he knew he lost the sale because of the attitude. Customer service like that is what will kill my business with them.

I probably would have ordered one from them if they were not so snooty. Instead, one of my shops in NH is getting it for me and shipping it. I will always stick with the little guy if they treat me at least with a little respect.

Feb 26, 2008 at 10:12 PM

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