RDKirk wrote:
I had to go back up and check the forum title. Yep, it does say "Pro Digital Corner."
That should mean that everyone here is either a professional or is speaking from a professional viewpoint. Which means, for the most part, "small business," because not many of us own the likes of Olin Mills, LifeTouch, Portrait Innovations, or Bella. So whatever we say about the "ma and pa local store" applies to us as well when we see a new Portrait Innovations open in town.
The Connecticut Yankee has told the truth. The big operations can never be truly custom and customer-focused operations.
Those "local" camera stores that survive and thrive are those that respond to our local professional needs, like Canoga, MPEX, and Tallyn's. They have also become online stores to gain a wider market.
To that extent, they're actually superior stores to B&H and Adorama, which--even though they are brick-and-mortar--have had to behave like big box stores to their local customers simply because they are so big.
This isn't different from what we must do ourselves. We have to find our own custom niches and also market to wider audiences beyond our local environs....Show more →
I couldn't agree more. Here in Seattle, we are very lucky. We have a thriving economy and enough of a creative professional community to support the brick and mortars. As I evolve my business, and provide custom services, I need a local pro shop. No doubt about it.
I love the fact that I can walk in the doors to a larger brick and mortar, they know my name, know my gear, know what I shoot, and always go out of their way to help. I'm not a corner case, they are that good. Heck, they've even let me borrow items from their rental department in a pinch. I will always buy locally, unless there a rare emergency, etc...But, chances are they will have what I need.
Just today, I needed a good paper cutter for some big print runs I have on my to do list. I checked and two different stores had a full stock of Rotatrims locally, at competitive prices! Not exactly your vanilla 40D and kit lens that every store has. That kind of convenience with a smile is necessary for my business and I support it.
One thing I think everyone is missing is that the percentage of people walking into the local store are not professionals. They don't need what we need. If 95% of your sales are amateur photographers, well we know what they are going to stock. If I need accessories for my profoto lights my local store will not have put the money out for inventory on these items.
Tallyn's in Peoria, Illinois, is a local store catering primarily to professionals. They're only open during weekday business hours--solidifying the fact that they aren't looking for consumer trade.
They don't have a very large showroom, and in fact, if you pop in on them, a sales rep will ask you what you're looking for rather than let you just "browse." Most of their space is stockroom, and they do a brisk online business that pays, I suspect, most of the bills. What they don't have, they can get in about as fast as I could get it from B&H.
I suspect MPEX and Canoga work along the same lines. The fact is that there isn't anything keeping any "ma and pa" store from going online to survive and still keep the brick and mortar business open. It's just a matter of whether they change their mindset.
How much is having a local store worth? When I bought my 1DMIII from Dell, I paid $3600. The locals stores were asking $4787.20 ($4400 +$287.20 tax). That is $1100 and change.
Sorry....the local store can go away as far as I am concerned. The small amount of business I am going to lose by not having them does not make up for the difference in prices.
RDKirk wrote:
I suspect MPEX and Canoga work along the same lines. The fact is that there isn't anything keeping any "ma and pa" store from going online to survive and still keep the brick and mortar business open. It's just a matter of whether they change their mindset.
Actually, Canoga Camera will work with you in store whether you're a pro or beginner. They do have an on-site digital printer to satisfy the average consumer. They also offer a beginning DSLR class to customers who bought a body from them during the last year, or charge $15 for the class. They also do starter home lighting kits for amateur dad portrait photographer.
The fact is that whoever owns this store is working just about every angle to make money, including bottom line web pricing and decent in-store prices. About the only thing they are not doing is dressing up their store nice and pretty like Samy's. I walked in and bought a Canon EF 85/1.8 off the shelve for $350 in 2005. The two local ma/pa stores within 3 miles from where I live wanted $398 and $440 for it. The Samy's in LA wanted $399 and the salesman told me there is no room to go down.
The independent local store, like any other business, needs adhere to sound business principles in order to thrive. It needs to be able to differentiate itself from the rest of the pack by either stock, price, service, or combination thereof. It needs to keep the overhead low and maintain the cash flow strong. It needs to be in a good location with reasonable access. It also needs to treat its customer well.
nathanlake wrote:
How much is having a local store worth? When I bought my 1DMIII from Dell, I paid $3600. The locals stores were asking $4787.20 ($4400 +$287.20 tax). That is $1100 and change.
Sorry....the local store can go away as far as I am concerned. The small amount of business I am going to lose by not having them does not make up for the difference in prices.
I was trying to bite my tongue...but....
Your comparison isn't exactly fair...I'll admit that I'm being protective of some local dealers, but I think the way you phrased your comment is a little harsh and a little short sighted...I was able to pick up my MkIII for less than $4400 locally. $3600? No, but I feel there is a small business partnership/loyalty that is worth more.
Also, you can't hold them for sales tax in an accusatory manner, which you did...There is more to professional photography than than bodies and lenses, and I'm guessing by your work that you don't go there. This isn't a slam, merely an observation from your website. You can't buy studio gear from Dell...You can't get loaners from Dell...etc. I think you get my point. If you don't need it, cool...but others do.
I also noticed that your prices are going up for prints. I do find some irony that you blast local dealers that provide service, for a little more cost than online...and you yourself are charging more than online printing prices "as a service".
BTW, when I commented on the outrageous price the salesman mysteriously lowered the price to $60.
I used to shop at one of the larger chains here in Canada, and when I pointed out to them their pricing was messed up on a specific high-end camera bag. They offered to cut it in half. At first I thought "wow", that I would buy the bag right then, but if its that easy to reduce the price by the price by THAT much, it made me wonder just how much profit I have been giving this place?
Over the last 3 years I have spent well over $10,000.00 there. Do you think if I complain they will give back $5000? haha... not likely! And more likely I will shop around and give my business to B&H who always seem to a) have a fair price and b) have the items in stock.
pmacino wrote:
I was trying to bite my tongue...but....
Your comparison isn't exactly fair...I'll admit that I'm being protective of some local dealers, but I think the way you phrased your comment is a little harsh and a little short sighted...I was able to pick up my MkIII for less than $4400 locally. $3600? No, but I feel there is a small business partnership/loyalty that is worth more.
Also, you can't hold them for sales tax in an accusatory manner, which you did...There is more to professional photography than than bodies and lenses, and I'm guessing by your work that you don't go there. This isn't a slam, merely an observation from your website. You can't buy studio gear from Dell...You can't get loaners from Dell...etc. I think you get my point. If you don't need it, cool...but others do.
I also noticed that your prices are going up for prints. I do find some irony that you blast local dealers that provide service, for a little more cost than online...and you yourself are charging more than online printing prices "as a service".
Have a nice day and good luck
Yes, I find this ironic as well. We seem to complain about a "newbee" photographer undercutting our markets, yet we are very happy to do the same when the shoe is on the other foot. I guess what goes around comes around is an appropriate saying here.
The fact is that whoever owns this store is working just about every angle to make money, including bottom line web pricing and decent in-store prices.
It's good that more than one model works. The real point here is that the local camera store has to change from the old model of depending totally on walk-in traffic. They've got to go to be "walk-in, call-in, mail-in, click-in" to survive.
The good thing is that there isn't any physical reason why any ma-and-pa store can't do that. A lot of the "internet competition" is nothing but ma-and-pa operations.
There seems to be a common problem with a lot of people anymore. That feeling of ENTITLEMENT. I deserve to have everything for nothing, no matter what the consequence to the other person. I'm sure there are some people overcharging for things but for the most part most small business owners are just trying to make a fair profit. Pmacino, you hit it right on the nail, to much how dare you charge me that much, but ask that same person to discount something and they squeal like a stuck pig. Such hypocracy.
chez wrote:
Yes, I find this ironic as well. We seem to complain about a "newbee" photographer undercutting our markets, yet we are very happy to do the same when the shoe is on the other foot. I guess what goes around comes around is an appropriate saying here.
You missed my point. I am against undercutting, I am for paying appropriately for work done and service. (I'm an ASMP member)
He wasn't undercutting either. However, I noted that was asking people to pay more than web prices, when he himself said he isn't willing to. That's why I also said he seemed to be a little "short sighted". I completely support his fees 100%. I just found it ironic that he didn't see the value in supporting a local business and stated so in such an affirmative manner when he is dependent on local business/customers. I was trying to not call hypocrisy.
pmacino wrote:
I was trying to bite my tongue...but....
Your comparison isn't exactly fair...I'll admit that I'm being protective of some local dealers, but I think the way you phrased your comment is a little harsh and a little short sighted...I was able to pick up my MkIII for less than $4400 locally. $3600? No, but I feel there is a small business partnership/loyalty that is worth more.
Also, you can't hold them for sales tax in an accusatory manner, which you did...There is more to professional photography than than bodies and lenses, and I'm guessing by your work that you don't go there. This isn't a slam, merely an observation from your website. You can't buy studio gear from Dell...You can't get loaners from Dell...etc. I think you get my point. If you don't need it, cool...but others do.
I also noticed that your prices are going up for prints. I do find some irony that you blast local dealers that provide service, for a little more cost than online...and you yourself are charging more than online printing prices "as a service".
Sales Tax - I am not holding it against the local dealer, but it does figure into my costs. I can't (or won't) ignore that cost just to be nice to a local dealer.
My prices - I am not sure what my prices have to do with anything. Of course I charge more than the printing price. My prices are a bundle of my printing cost plus the money I need to make for taking the photo.
Blasting local dealer - I am not blasting them. I am just saying that if they can't be competitive on price, I personally don't value their value-add enough to routinely make any large purchases from them. That may be partially due to the fact that I don't do much studio work. I do a little PJ for the local paper, but most of my work is horse related. As a relatively new professional, and considering my type of work, I am very sensitive to my costs and less sensitive to other issues. Maybe that will change over the next few years. We'll see.
Interesting discussion. There are two pressures on the local camera store that may not have been mentioned.
When I bought my first SLR in 1966, I relied on my local camera store to help me decide. I read Pop Photo and Modern Photo, but they weren't exactly objective. The store had very knowledgeable sales help and gave me good advice. Now I can come to FM or dpreview or any number of other sites and get far more info. This is another way the internet has hurt.
There's also local competition now that cameras are more electronic items. I'm still amazed that the big box electronics store has L lenses and Canon 5D bodies. Everybody and their brother sells cameras these days.
Lastly, my local camera store probably made more money from their lab than their storefront. All the local Gov't agencies, like the medical examiner and law enforement used them for photofinishing. They're now shooting digital and printing in house. That huge business segment just disappeared. They also can't compete with the stores selling 12cent prints as loss leaders.
It's sad the locally owned camera store is disappearing. The model is less and less viable.
nathanlake wrote:
My prices are a bundle of my printing cost plus the money I need to make for taking the photo.
This is the dilemma of any mom and pop operation ... including photographers. The small stores don't choose to charge higher prices. They are only charging over and above their costs to earn a profit, not to gouge the customer. At least the stores I am familiar with. When the larger stores have the buying power to purchase a whole cargo container load of bodies and lenses in one purchase, how is a smaller store to compete?
nathanlake wrote:
Sales Tax - I am not holding it against the local dealer, but it does figure into my costs. I can't (or won't) ignore that cost just to be nice to a local dealer.
...technically you are supposed to pay sales tax or use tax on the things that you buy out of state, if you are a pro it is a good thing to do as you run more of a chance of an audit once you start charging sales tax and all that.
...technically you are supposed to pay sales tax or use tax on the things that you buy out of state, if you are a pro it is a good thing to do as you run more of a chance of an audit once you start charging sales tax and all that.
I was just about to say that myself. A legitimate business has a lot to lose by not paying the use tax.
In a conversation like this it's ever so easy to blame things like globalization for the small shop owner's problems but I keep thinking back to the days of the first screw machine when suddenly the blacksmith lost his 5000 years of seniority.
Whether it is selling camera gear or selling images the provider who fails to keep abreast of the market place is doomed. Life changes, business changes, and finding ways to meet your clients' needs is what business is all about.
Who among us who sells images is selling the same products they marketed 5 yrs ago -- I know I am not.
And when pressed for a last minute requirement sure I'll go to the place that has it and pay more for the convenience; but I also know that I make my day to day buying decisions on where I can get the best bang for the buck..... much like my clients do.
My 2 cents.....I live in a smaller town where, unfortunately, I know more than the salespeople who are selling cameras and gear. I also live an hour from a large city where the salespeople know only the most basic information and although I tried 3 times to buy from them, just gave up after receiving erroneous information on 2 different subjects. So I buy mostly online.
However, when I was in Oceanside recently I stopped at the camera shop which has been there for many, many years and watched them talk a man out of buying a new camera because the one he brought in was older but a better camera. All of the salespeople were knowledgeable and the prices were fair - not as cheap as online but fair considering you have those years of integrity and honesty behind them. I bought a new 40D camera package on the spot and plan on returning whenever I am in the area. We need to support these small businessmen when we can and they in turn will support us if we also are honest in our dealings. The camera shop can offer local classes, and there are many services that people need and can only get reliably on a local level.
I would feel very safe sending my mother in to to that Oceanside shop to buy a new camera....I know she can rely on getting what she needs, not what they are trying to sell. There is room out there for all of us.
IMHO, it's the law of Supply & Demand will dictate the event/market. Professional Photographers, and those without Internet to get advice, are probably being out number by the semi-pro or prosumer. Eventually, some local stores will fold, only those with a huge regular customer base and additional side business (like printing, CD, DVD copy, etc...) will survive.
BTW, if my mom wanted to buy a camera, she will have to listen to me, not the store guy/gal :-)
I'm also in Michigan, and have been to Adray many times for gear. While it's always nice to support the mom & pop stores that are worth doing business with, there's a certain limit to how much you're willing to sacrifice on cost.
I'm looking at an ultra wide. The two lenses I had in mind are both $40 more than Amazon or B&H or any other online retailer than they were at Adray. No thanks. Maybe a few dollars more, but not 40.
Another local store is Camera Mart. While their prices are higher, they have virtually EVERYTHING. I bought a lot of gear from them when I was getting started just because of the staff. Prices weren't really all that bad compared to the net on some items. At least they had things balanced out a bit.
If the local store can give a competitive price, I'm all for supporting them for the service you can get, and for the instant gratification. When you start seeing that noticeable of a markup, there's a real quick transition from being acceptable to simply not worth it. The ridiculous markup is a pretty big motivation to have something overnighted from an online retailer.
Chris Rabior wrote:
I'm looking at an ultra wide. The two lenses I had in mind are both $40 more than Amazon or B&H or any other online retailer than they were at Adray. No thanks. Maybe a few dollars more, but not 40.
I bet if you asked them for a better price on the lens they would lower it a bit, but you have to ask. They may not be able to get to the price you find on the web, but if it's close enough, it may be worth a few extra dollars to deal with the local shop.
