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Archive 2007 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

  
 
Alan321
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p.11 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff, I think your shot #4 of the rocks is too soft overall to be useful for anything (unless it was just a small crop) but in the others I recognised the problem you are having. I had a similar though much worse experience with a 28-135 when an internal signal cable was damaged and caused the IS to malfunction by leaving the IS lens group off-centre whether or not IS was switched on.

Therefore my suggestion to you is to ignore all past experience with your possibly offending 70-200 lens and reshoot with it on any other camera. If it still misbehaves then you probably have a newly-developed lens element alignment problem. If it works ok then you surely have a 1D3 camera problem.

The timing of the onset of any lens problem is the variable that demands a re-test.

by the way, testing this sort of problem is an ideal situation for the classic but much maligned brick wall test. Just be sure that you are aiming square-on to the wall. You can also use newspaper stuck onto a flat wall for a similar test at closer focus distance. Both tests should give you uniform or at least symmetrical focus patterns. Edge softness is ok (though undesirable) so long as it is the same on opposite sides of the image centre.

- Alan



Dec 19, 2007 at 10:49 AM
Alistair Watson
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p.11 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
Is that full-frame, or is it a crop?


Full frame reduced in size to 800-x600. When I get a moment I will take some more shots and post the original file for you.



Dec 19, 2007 at 10:52 AM
Alan321
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p.11 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


P.S. when viewing your brick wall or newspaper test images, play with the sharpening from none to full and back to more easily see which parts of the image are responding. Sharpening the soft parts does relatively little compared with sharpening the sharp parts of an image.

- Alan



Dec 19, 2007 at 10:52 AM
Jeff
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p.11 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Alan321 wrote:
Jeff, I think your shot #4 of the rocks is too soft overall to be useful for anything (unless it was just a small crop) but in the others I recognised the problem you are having.


Actually, interestingly the left side of this image is quite sharp when viewed at 1:1 (100%). This is a 50% crop, and illustrates how difficult it can be to evaluate such IQ issues when looking at web-presented sizes. Believe me, at 100% it's quite clear that the rock on the left is within the plane of focus, and on the right there is no apparent plane of focus.


I had a similar though much worse experience with a 28-135 when an internal signal cable was damaged and caused the IS to malfunction by leaving the IS lens group off-centre whether or not IS was switched on. Therefore my suggestion to you is to ignore all past experience with your possibly offending 70-200 lens and reshoot with it on any other camera. If it still misbehaves then you probably have a newly-developed lens element alignment problem. If it works ok then you surely have a 1D3 camera problem.

The timing of the onset of any lens problem is the variable that
...Show more

I would agree with your evaluation of IS as a potential cause. Without question, the effect began precisely when I started shooting with the MkIII, and never manifested itself using either the 30D nor 1Ds. I will test the 70-200 on the 30D tomorrow, but cannot shoot with the MkIII until it returns from VA. It is possible that the IS went haywire as soon as I got the MkIII; we'll see...


By the way, testing this sort of problem is an ideal situation for the classic but much maligned brick wall test. Just be sure that you are aiming square-on to the wall. You can also use newspaper stuck onto a flat wall for a similar test at closer focus distance. Both tests should give you uniform or at least symmetrical focus patterns. Edge softness is ok (though undesirable) so long as it is the same on opposite sides of the image centre.


Will do exactly that as soon as I can. From runners to brick walls... At least my 6-year old got a bit faster this fall!

Thanks for the input,

Jeff

PS: FWIW, all images I've presented are straight from the camera, no sharpening has been applied.



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:08 AM
jkurkjia
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p.11 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff, thanks for consolidating the sequence of examples; it REALLY helped me a lot. Last night, guess I must have been very tired, somehow I totally missed the significance of #4, the one you go on to describe as a reversal. I’ve looked at #4 carefully this morning and checked the shadows to eliminate the possibility of an optical illusion. At this point in time I’m fully convinced the relationship of the rock formations relative to the camera should have yielded a plane of focus that we should all be able to see (and unfortunately we can’t).

Off the top of my head I can’t envision what aspect of IS might contribute to what we see (actually, what we don’t see) from a mechanical standpoint. It’s almost like one side of the IS optics is pivoting around one point and either vibrating on the other side OR just plane (no pun intended) cocked at a bad angle. I wonder if there is some Canon prepared document that describes IS from both an optical and mechanical standpoint?

Maybe we can quickly eliminate vibration about a pivot point as a possible source of your problem. Let me ask you a question regarding the 1Ds relative to the 1DmkIII; in your opinion does the IS make more audible noise when you are shooting with one camera or the other? The 1DmkIII is designed to be much faster than the 1Ds to support a higher frame rate; this may have “something” to do with how the camera interacts with the IS controls, I just don’t know. I have one more question regarding #4, would you normally take this picture by pressing the shutter release half way down for a final whack at composition before firing away?

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:25 AM
R Longenbach
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p.11 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Some very good points!!!!


I looked at Canon's broadcast IS video - while it's only one plane instead of two like the current IS, it makes sense here.

What if the IS system is detecting what it thinks is motion from the camera and tries to compensate by shifting the optics at a slight angle?



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:39 AM
R Longenbach
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p.11 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


jkurkjia -

Here's the website at Canon Japan:

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/lens/index.html



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:40 AM
Jeff
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p.11 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


IJust got this, in regard to Rob's use of IS during the test sequences:

Rob indeed was using IS for all of the test photos in Phoenix and Calgary, but it wasn't a factor in the results due to his use of extremely high shutter speeds. Also, it would have shown up in the 1D Mark II N results if it was a factor, but it didn't.

I believe CW was referring to a bad lens or IS mechanism for that last sentence.



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Photon
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p.11 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
That's a good question Alistair, and I made very sure of this one last night before I posted it (I should have included the loupe, but ran out of time, what with all the errant rhetoric being slung about).

The focus was on the tree in the center, and both sides of the rock were roughly equidistant to my position. Even if what you suggest were true, you should be able to move 'backward' on the right hand pillar of rock until you find the focal plane, but you cannot. There is absolutely nothing in focus in the right half
...Show more
Is it at all possible that this is, rather than an IS issue, a question of the AF motor being driven during the actual exposure? I realize that this would not so readily explain the apparent variation in focus across the frame (and can't be the explanation for the fuzzy shots you did with MF), but maybe it could explain some of the erratic results. Malfunctioning IS seems much more probable for explaining what you've described and demonstrated, but if Galbraith's tests were done with IS off...



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:50 AM
Jeff
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p.11 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


jkurkjia wrote:
Maybe we can quickly eliminate vibration about a pivot point as a possible source of your problem. Let me ask you a question regarding the 1Ds relative to the 1DmkIII; in your opinion does the IS make more audible noise when you are shooting with one camera or the other?


Very interesting question, and in fact, I don't recall hearing the IS as mcuh as I used to, but do recall hearing it and seeing the effect (i.e. it is operating). What I have noted is the IS mechanism (only very occasionally) sort of 'fluttering' back and forth for about a half-second or so (you can both hear and see the effect), but it only happens when I've let my finger off the shutter button and quickly re-pressed the button. Never noticed that with the 1Ds.

The 1DmkIII is designed to be much faster than the 1Ds to support a higher frame rate; this may have “something” to do with how the camera interacts with the IS controls, I just don’t know. I have one more question regarding #4, would you normally take this picture by pressing the shutter release half way down for a final whack at composition before firing away?


I use back-button AF, so I usually don't remove my finger from the shutter button once I've set the exposure (with the half-press). In other words, for a shot like this I would usually focus, release the AF button to lock focus, press the shutter halfway with the image placed in the viewfinder giving me the metering I want (usually in Av), re-compose for composition, and then release the shutter. Note this is only a technique I would use with a static subject, for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the input!

Jeff



Dec 19, 2007 at 11:59 AM
Jeff
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p.11 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Photon wrote:
Is it at all possible that this is, rather than an IS issue, a question of the AF motor being driven during the actual exposure? I realize that this would not so readily explain the apparent variation in focus across the frame (and can't be the explanation for the fuzzy shots you did with MF), but maybe it could explain some of the erratic results. Malfunctioning IS seems much more probable for explaining what you've described and demonstrated, but if Galbraith's tests were done with IS off...


You probably just missed my post above; CW confirmed that RG used IS for all ssequences.

If the lens were actively focusing during shutter release, wouldn't you expect a variability in focus from top to bottom, due to the vertically-travelling shutter curtains? We talked about this early in this thread in relation to the 'ghosting' issue (I think).



Dec 19, 2007 at 12:02 PM
R Longenbach
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p.11 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
IJust got this, in regard to Rob's use of IS during the test sequences:

I believe CW was referring to a bad lens or IS mechanism for that last sentence.


I understand the high shutter speeds part, but again, if the IS component was shifting *when it didn't need to*........and if it's only a MkIII to IS issue not a Mk2n to IS issue.....of course it wouldn't show.



Dec 19, 2007 at 12:04 PM
jkurkjia
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p.11 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


R Longenbach wrote:
jkurkjia -

Here's the website at Canon Japan:

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/lens/index.html


Noted! Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian



Dec 19, 2007 at 12:08 PM
Jeff
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p.11 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Wow! Canon service just confirmed that they Fed-Exed my MkIII yesterday, to be received tomorrow. That is amazing turnaround (they apparently only received it Monday morning).

I hope I can be there when they drop off, as otherwise it may be a week or so until I can sign for it...



Dec 19, 2007 at 12:30 PM
DynoMoHum
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p.11 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I think we all agree that movement of any kind 'should not' have been a factor in Rob Galbraith's testing given the high shutter speeds... Yet the odd 'ghosting' seems to indicate that something was moving... If something was moving... It had to been moving REALLY fast.

Perhaps even faster then Canon service moved on Jeff's repair...



Dec 19, 2007 at 01:03 PM
R Longenbach
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p.11 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Here's a patent from 2001 for Canon and an optical image stabilization system for still and motion pictures.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7212231.PN.&OS=PN/7212231&RS=PN/7212231

Still trying to get the images out online, but here's something interesting:

"If some vibration is caused by a pressing operation in order to generate signal S2, or if there is a capture error due to a shutter time lag, control characteristic 5 may more likely provide a high-frequency response depending upon the structure and specification of that camera in order to overcome problems involved therewith."



Dec 19, 2007 at 01:06 PM
Tom_W
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p.11 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff, as stated before by another poster, your test shots on the previous page indicate to me that the AF motor might still moving during the exposure. The question in my mind is, does this coincide with the actual movement of the focal plane shutter. That is, if the shutter opening moved side-to-side while the lens focus was still moving, then the image might have an uneven focus plane.

On the other hand, if the shutter opening moves up and down, then an apparent left-to-right focus plane shift would be from another cause. Possibly IS-related.

At any rate, I hope it gets sorted out.



Dec 19, 2007 at 01:15 PM
Alan321
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p.11 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
If the lens were actively focusing during shutter release, wouldn't you expect a variability in focus from top to bottom, due to the vertically-travelling shutter curtains? We talked about this early in this thread in relation to the 'ghosting' issue (I think).


AF should have well and truly finished before the image is captured.

The camera assesses focus and decides where the lens should be focused (either now for one-shot, or at the appropriate future time for AI Servo).

The camera allows a period of time for the lens to get there. Any decent Canon lens will get there in time, but the camera can be set to not shoot if focus is not achieved. I'm not sure if this means the camera cannot assess focus or if the lens gives feedback to say that it can't operate fast enough.

The camera takes the shot.


While there may be a focus delay for an initial shot in AI Servo mode, that delay should get shorter as subsequent shots are already at or near the correct focus. In One Shot mode the lens will generally have focused long before you shoot if only because most of us wait to hear or see the focus confirmation signal before shooting.

- Alan



Dec 19, 2007 at 01:28 PM
jkurkjia
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p.11 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


R Longenbach wrote:
Here's a patent from 2001 for Canon and an optical image stabilization system for still and motion pictures.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7212231.PN.&OS=PN/7212231&RS=PN/7212231

Still trying to get the images out online, but here's something interesting:

"If some vibration is caused by a pressing operation in order to generate signal S2, or if there is a capture error due to a shutter time lag, control characteristic 5 may more likely provide a high-frequency response depending upon the structure and specification of that camera in order to overcome problems involved therewith."


An interesting catch of words on you part; also, thanks for the link. Is there some sort of glitch at the hosting site? Any idea why we can't see the associated figures?

Regards,

Joe



Dec 19, 2007 at 01:38 PM
R Longenbach
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p.11 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


The images are in TIFF format, I downloaded one of the viewers for Firefox, and it's still not working. Maybe Quicktime is trying to be the viewer of choice....


Dec 19, 2007 at 01:47 PM
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