I usually do sports photography, but love photography in general (yes, you could call it a passion). I don't do wedding photography, but read this forum and a few others, and it's given me an appreciation of the difficulties the WP faces. That said, I like to take photos at friends' weddings, and to me it is part of enjoying the wedding.
So... I only take one camera body. One lens (either a fast zoom or a fast prime). No flash. I stay out of the way of the hired photographer(s). I don't stand behind them during formals (I know how that can draw the subjects' eyes). I try not to get the same shots.
This last point is something I think is worth mentioning.. I try to get shots I know they hired photographers aren't likely to get, so I avoid the formal, posed shots. I look for detail shots and candids of guests, I don't want to duplicate what the B&G have already paid for, and what the pros will be wanting to sell prints of.
Oh and FWIW, the guy the OP is talking about sounds awful.. there were two guys like that at the second last wedding I went to, and they were just as rude to guests, jumping in front of peoples' cameras so that they could get 'their' shot, flashes firing constantly (though it quite was dark by then, I was shooting ISO3200 and ISO 6400 f1.7)
This past Saturday my niece was married. Guess what....Uncle Bob (I mean Uncle John...that would be me) was the photographer. Her new mother in law has an uncle that is/was a wedding photographer. My niece insisted that I shoot the wedding. To make a long story short, the other uncle came over and we compared equipment and talked shop for a short time, and then he stayed out of my way the rest of the evening. I only spotted him once taking the same thing that I was. Worked out pretty nice.
Now, what really torques me are the people that get in the way with P&S cameras. I don't know how many times I have been at the back of the church ready to shoot the father of the bride getting ready to kiss his daughter and give her away, when some idiot steps out into the middle of the aisle and holds up a p&s to get the picture. And it is never a skinny person that you can shoot around, it is someone that needs a wide load placard on their butt. I have taken now to placing a camera up front on a tripod with a pocket wizard on it to shoot remote shots. I usually wait for the videographer to place his video, then put it close to that. I check first to make sure they are not recording sound off that camera, so the camera clicks from mine aren't on the soundtrack. Takes care of the problem most of the time.
ggrtist wrote:
Uncle bob's (or in our case, younger friends or family members of the couple wanting to get into the business) have been becoming a problem. They just don't know how to be unobtrusive, we end up with quite a few great moments at the ceremony that have a big DSLR sticking out in them.
We're working on some info and sample images that we're going to show clients so they can be aware of it and ward off any of their family that talk about bringing their new Canons.
Maybe should consider banning family all together from wedding...they get in the way of good photos... only a few friends allowed (they have to be photogenic and stay still and quiet), and no one gets to have any fun, or be spontaneous until the wedding photographer says so... what do these folks getting married think... that this is supposed to be a fun day ? Of course not, it's only a photo-op.
RedWhiteandRed wrote:
As if that was enforceable, legal, etc.
That is a valid point. Which is why I have an addition clause in my contract, that the B&G agree that I am not responsible for photos ruined by the flashes, or photographic activities of others. That IS enforceable.
I have encountered this problem. One of the ways I have handled it is to explain to the B&G long before the wedding that they risk having some of their pictures ruined due to family photogs. Getting this out in the open well in advance of the ceremony is much better than trying to deal with it on the day of.
When they ask what I suggest, I tell them that having someone (the priest is usually best) ask that anyone other than the professional photographer to refrain from flash photography during the ceremony. I also ask them to assign me a family member who will enforce the rule in the event of a problem. I find members of the immediate family tend to know most of the people present and know where the bodies are buried.
What is even more annoying than flash IMHO are the AF assist lights many consumer digital cameras have. During one cake cutting the bride's white dress was lit up like a Christmas tree with all the red and green dots and lines and it ruined a number of the shots.
As a side note, if I am a guest at a wedding and know the B&G well, I generally DO take my camera. However, in those cases I shoot natural light and stay the heck out of the way of the hired photog - not just keeping from being between them and the shot, but insuring I'm not in the background of their shot either. I also try to stick to shots they aren't getting. This tends to be mostly candids, but I also see it as an opportunity for experimentation. Not being the hired pro is very freeing... because there's no pressure on me to produce any specific pictures I can feel free to try different things.
oasis wrote:
rockit - yes, he was over my shoulder during the formals, firing off his flash as well. Which did ruin my exposure on several shots. You'd think with the duration of flash and shutters simulflash would be less of an issue but I see at least 5 instances out of roughly 60 images where I appear to have caught his flash in my exposure. He wasn't on the formals list so he actually had no other business being in the room at the time. He was also trying to do some directing. As my partner was trying to pose a large group, the B&G shared a quick kiss. The flash fires off behind me about 0.5 sec too late. "Damn, I missed it! Can you guys do it again?" Meanwhile, my partner is trying to get the couple's attention so we can wrap up formals and get them out to the cocktail hour asap... ...Show more →
As a hired 'professional' photographer, you let this happened? and then blamed on Uncle Bob? You've got yourself to blame for letting the situation got out of hands especially during the formal session. A pro does not fight with guests to take photos!
Anyway, I think you've been had. The uncle Bob was probably set up by the B&G so that they do not have to buy many prints from you.
LTPC wrote:
As a hired 'professional' photographer, you let this happened? and then blamed on Uncle Bob? You've got yourself to blame for letting the situation got out of hands especially during the formal session. A pro does not fight with guests to take photos!
Anyway, I think you've been had. The uncle Bob was probably set up by the B&G so that they do not have to buy many prints from you.
Why wouldn't they just have "Uncle Bob" do the wedding?
Sorry to hear this happen to you but I am from the school “you can catch more fly’s with honey then you can with vinegar”. I can’t see how adding something in your contract is going to stop anyone from doing what he or she wants to do, and not make YOU look like an a*s (rather them then me). If it is a public place you are SOL (unless you get permits). So with that being said your best defense is a good offence. YOU have to be upfront with the B/G and let them know what may cause future problems (and their time). I do like the idea about adding to my agreement… ‘If the photos don’t come out because of the guest… yadda, yadda, yadda’ policy… that YOU CAN’T control. I only been doing WP less then two years, so I an FAR from being an expert, and have never ran into a person that was a “complete jerk”. Before I took WP plunge I did (still do) a lot of reading about how to basically ‘control people’… so kindness, helpfulness, courteously, and good will… can help YOU a lot. Make them your ‘friend’ and it will help you. Remember, they are their to celebrate a family or friends wedding, they want to have a good time and everyone wants to take home their own happy memories, and this would include their own photographs. Please read “THE NEW WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS HANDBOOK” by Jacobs Photo/Graphics; has a lot of good tips. In fact I have the guest stand in spot (grouping them together) and I count 1-2-3 “fire” (everyone loves that and starts to laugh). AGAIN the guests are there for the B/G.
Anyway I started to take “paparazzi shots” these are shots of the ‘group cluster’ of the guest. The b/g love those shots.
On another note… a few weeks ago I was an invited guest to a friends wedding and the Bride introduce me to the photog and another WP (not my idea plus I did not bring camera just a small point and shoot) and he was a very nice guy. He said I should take all the shots I wanted and would help me setting it up. I declined… but because he was friendly it made me feel at ease.
Hey guys,
I wanted to lay some thoughts out there that will support the usage of a clause preventing these situations in weddings.
First of all, I tell the bride and groom AT CONSULTATIONS about our policy so that they know first hand how we conduct ourselves at weddings. I do not allow ANY photography by anyone other than myself and my photographers. I explain to the bride and groom that it could a) ruin pictures by altering color and making them too bright from several flashes and b) having to wait for others to take pictures will GET THEM TO THE RECEPTION LATER.
I ask you all this...what bride and groom wants to arrive to the reception late or have their pictures ruined by other shooters Start by letting them know how it can affect pictures, and then use that line. I've NEVER had any bride and groom disagree with me after I explain it this way. The reason I go through all this is because it gets the bride and groom on my side at the wedding. This is the key thing here...if the B&G see Uncle Bob not adhering to their policy, they never fail to help me out. It has really been a no-fail policy for me. The only time that we've had to deal with people is the P&S people, which tend to be a little more obnoxious. My husband and I don't mind reiterating our policy to the guests because we are the hired photographers. Since the B&G know in advance of our policy and the fact that its in the contract, they never complain. Yes, its not very enforceable, but a little effort in the beginning goes a long way. Trust me.
Nobody wants to deal with a lawsuit because of ruined pictures or faces looking away because of other shooters do you? Remember we live in a SEWER society...that's SUE-ER. Believe me, there is a bride out there that will go to that length, so do what you can to prevent this.
P.S. The wedding coordinator is there for a reason! Utilize him/her to clear everyone not involved in pictures from the sanctuary/ceremony location. Give him/her a list of names beforehand so they can help you out. This has worked for me on several occasions.
Montrealer wrote:
Maybe should consider banning family all together from wedding...they get in the way of good photos... only a few friends allowed (they have to be photogenic and stay still and quiet), and no one gets to have any fun, or be spontaneous until the wedding photographer says so... what do these folks getting married think... that this is supposed to be a fun day ? Of course not, it's only a photo-op.
Funny comment yes. But I think the point is more that we have started educating our clients about what can happen if they have overzealous guest photographers trying to build portfolios or practice their new DSLRs and that we cannot be liable if their images are compromised because Uncle Bob jumped in front of us to get the ring exchange or cake cutting shot or photographed every single formal combination from behind us.
I think we see both extremes at weddings at some point. I had one bad wedding a few years back where everybody was using their disposable film cameras and camera phones and mobbing the bride and groom right after the ceremony. Normally I don't mind, but they kept getting in my way. It was helter-skelter with lots of yelling, laughing and such going on so as to make it difficult for me to even communicate with the b&g. I finally yelled to them that I couldn't take any pictures with people standing right in front of them and people elbowing me (jockeying into position). We got Aunt Sally with her p&s to move (3 ft from the couple, right in front, she was about 4 ft wide too), I formed a semi-line of other shooters with me in the middle. I got the b&g posed, told them to look at me, took the shot, then yelled, "everybody open fire!" It got the crowd to laughing and they stopped being so rowdy.
At another wedding the family was kinda nervous about asking me to shoot any additional (non-planned) shots. I told them we'd do anything that we had time for, and after shooting several b&g shots with various relatives they seemed to relax. Towards the end of the day, the bride's dad told me that when his oldest daughter got married, the photographer was extremely difficult to work with and even threatened to pack up and leave because the b&g didn't want to do some poses that *he* wanted to do. At least I knew then why they had acted a bit oddly to start with.
Best,
Andy
I personally don't bring anything to a wedding unless the B&G ask me to. In that case, what I do is tell the B&G I won't give them any of my shots until after they have ordered all their stuff from the hired WP. And the day of the wedding, I stay out the WP's way and I always ask him or her if they mind if I take some shots. If they say they do, the camera stays in the bag. If they say it is ok, then I take a few shots without flash. Just my $0.02.
Cathy Yount wrote:
Hey guys,
I wanted to lay some thoughts out there that will support the usage of a clause preventing these situations in weddings.
First of all, I tell the bride and groom AT CONSULTATIONS about our policy so that they know first hand how we conduct ourselves at weddings. I do not allow ANY photography by anyone other than myself and my photographers.
As has already been mentioned, this is completely unenforceable. What exactly are the consequences to the B&G if Aunt Maye and Claire, as well as Cousins Bob, Joe, and Sara, start shooting with their P&Ss? Are you going to confiscate their cameras or something?
Your contract, cannot dictate the behavior of parties not a part of the contract. The aforementioned Aunts and Cousins can tell you to pound sand and there is really nothing that you can do about it. You could pack your gear and leave, but there is not a Civil jury on the planet that is going to side with you for breeching the contract because someone who is not a signatory to the contract in the first place, took pictures during a wedding.
Your contract should limit your liability in the case that someone else's screwing around ruins the photographs.
My contract states that I will not be responsible for any problems caused by guests and other vendors who may interfere with my ability to capture the images during the course of the day. It also states that if I ask the video folks or DJ for help in cooperating placement, location and direction of their lighting it is up to the BG to see that they comply. Never had to force this issue though. I've only ever had one problem with the videographer setting up behind the BG and minister and had him in the background for many of the shots during the ceremony. I wasn't aware he was going to do that and there was no time to move him because it would have disrupted the ceremony. Unfortunately he was not very photogenic and is why I had the clause added to my contract. Fortunately, the bride did not blame me for him being in the photos. I never have had any problems with guests, except to remind subjects to be looking at me during the formals and not lookaing at Uncle Bob.
As social mores have changed, of course, folks in the US seem more at ease with using cameras during the ceremony. However, I think it is somewhat cultural, too. When my step-sister married a man from Israel, the wedding was held in NY and many of his Israeli friends/family attended. Throughout the ceremony, people were taking pictures with P&S cameras. They were even so brazen as to walk right up the aisle to the front and take pictures. One man even walked around the other side of the rabbi/bride/groom and took a picture! We Americans thought it was rude, but for the folks at this wedding it wasn't any big deal at all.
"But when it's causing people in our group shots to look at other cameras or the appearance of camera-head (and flash-arm) in every other shot, it is really frustrating"
I totally agree. But sometimes I wonder about the people in the pictures. The last wedding I shot, I was very clear and loud as I counted 1-2-3, and I swear in about 25% of the pictures, people were still looking in different directions. normally my consulation would be, "well at least the B/G look good," but even the G lost his sense of direction and was peering into space at times. I guess to his defense, he a few glasses of wine before the wedding started. haha.
You've got yourself to blame for letting the situation got out of hands especially during the formal session. A pro does not fight with guests to take photos!