Tentacle wrote:
True dynamic range (as opposed to numeric space) is linked to the size of the photo site. The photo diode area remains unchanged, compared to the 1Ds II. Canon moved the photo sites closer, so they were able to increase the density.
So, with that in mind, the DR will be roughly the same as the 1Ds II. Assuming the DR is the same as the 1D III is wrong, because the 1D III has bigger photo diodes.
Uggh thats not good news. So we are stuck in the 8+ stop dynamic range? Canon's flagship camera cant take a picture of ground and sky without clipping one or the other (unless midday).
Why on earth would canon not improve dynamic range? Do they actually use the cameras they build? Try and shoot a shadowed valley with a sunrise or sunset sky.
Im trying to find a reason to buy this camera. But my 1st impressions were correct this camera just doesnt warrant an upgrade. Would you pay 4,000 more for a big low res screen and a molly-maid dust cleaner? IM number one on the list at a camera store (got on last year). Anyone want to buy my number one slot? Highest bidder takes it...
Sneakyracer wrote:
Actually resale value of the 1Ds mk2 should hold nicely...UNTIL the 16mp 5D "mk2" comes out next year, still id hold on to it, its not like suddenly the 1Ds2 cant output nice files because a new camera is out
Are low click count (< 5000) 1Ds2's selling for $5,000 holding their value well ? It doesn't seem so. Now is a great time to buy one.
The green channel is very clean with noise - look at the background in the upper left side of the image. This is a smooth representation with essentially no texture This is expected with the RGGB double sample of green.
Looking at the blue and red channels is rather surprising - there is a lot of mottled / textured noise in both red and blue. The large clumps of noise is certainly a distraction and is no where near as smooth as the green channel. Even more surprising is the fact that the red channel is noisier than the blue channel (But... we don't know what the shooting light source was).
Is this a good thing for their "studio" camera? I really expected smoothness in all channels at ISO 100. I wonder what the medium format backs do in this case"?
--
tony http://www.tphoto.ca
Edited at 8/21/2007 5:23:05 AM, 8/21/2007 (GMT)
................................
Uggh thats not good news. So we are stuck in the 8+ stop dynamic range? Canon's flagship camera cant take a picture of ground and sky without clipping one or the other (unless midday).
Why on earth would canon not improve dynamic range? Do they actually use the cameras they build? Try and shoot a shadowed valley with a sunrise or sunset sky.
[...]
It's reasonable to expect some DR improvement. The lower end of the DR range is determined by the noise floor. The high end by photo diode saturation. We know that the photo diodes are the same size as with the Mk II, but in 3 years Canon will have done quite a lot in production improvements to lower the noise floor.
Granted the ZD has its flaws, BUT, I got my hands on one last week and they let me use my own CF card. At ISO 100 the RAW files looked great at 35.7 Mb. The 645 output is what? 3 to 4 times the size of a 35mm? At under $10,000 for the system its looking better all the time. I guess the 5D MKII will be the decider. If I'm going to use a camera as physicly large as the DS I might as well shoot the ZD back.
Actually the ZD back (vs. the ZD camera) ends up being quite a bit larger than even a 1DsIII. When you start factoring in equivalent lens sizes, the Mamiya starts getting close to twice the weight for an equivalent system. That then means you need a bigger tripod and probably head, especially because the Mamiya with a ZD back doesn't balance as well. And the Mamiya lens range is extremely limited compared to Canon, Canon compatible third party lenses (i.e., Tamron), and "alternative" lenses. Want to complain about a particular Canon lens? Fine, get a Tamron, or a Contax (with an adatper), or a Zeiss ZF lens with adapter, or a Nikon lens, or a Leica.
It seems that no matter what the engineers at Canon do, consumers will never be happy. For the ones that are complaining maybe they should sit down and really design their perfect camera and actually make it themselves that way they will only have themselves to blame for anything and everything that goes wrong.
For the ones who cannot find the mirror lock up, I suggest you look for it because it is there and for pete's sake, learn how to use it before complaining that it does not work.
IMHO, Canon has done a damn good job of making these cameras and having been a Canon user for quite a very long time, I feel well qualified to make this statement. I know how to be satisfied with what I got since I don't have the wherewithall to design, craft and engineer my own camera. I compensate by actually learning the art of photography inside and out before I begin to complain.
M Henriques wrote:
It seems that no matter what the engineers at Canon do, consumers will never be happy. For the ones that are complaining maybe they should sit down and really design their perfect camera and actually make it themselves that way they will only have themselves to blame for anything and everything that goes wrong.
For the ones who cannot find the mirror lock up, I suggest you look for it because it is there and for pete's sake, learn how to use it before complaining that it does not work.
IMHO, Canon has done a damn good job of making these cameras and having been a Canon user for quite a very long time, I feel well qualified to make this statement. I know how to be satisfied with what I got since I don't have the wherewithall to design, craft and engineer my own camera. I compensate by actually learning the art of photography inside and out before I begin to complain.
No one is going to make a canon 1ds3 in their garage. Lets get back to reality OK?
Many of us have been asking for a MLU button on the back. Did we get it? NO!
Many of us have been asking for more dynamic range. Did we get it? NO!
Many of us have asked for screens with more resolution. Did we get it? NO!
We asked for megapixels to get us close to MF. Did we get it? NO we got 4 meg increase.
We asked for a one handed menu and button configuration. Did we get it? NO!
We asked for 16 bit files. Did we get it? NO!
So what did we get after waiting almost 4 years? A molly maid-dust cleaner and 4 megs. I must say as a current 1ds2 owner I cant find a compelling reason to drop 4-5K more after selling my camera for this 1DS2-N upgrade.
Thats my opinion. Yours may be different. And its OK if it is.
No one is going to make a canon 1ds3 in their garage. Lets get back to reality OK?
Many of us have been asking for a MLU button on the back. Did we get it? NO!
Many of us have been asking for more dynamic range. Did we get it? NO!
Many of us have asked for screens with more resolution. Did we get it? NO!
We asked for megapixels to get us close to MF. Did we get it? NO we got 4 meg increase.
We asked for a one handed menu and button configuration. Did we get it? NO!
We asked for 16 bit files. Did we get it? NO!
So what did we get after waiting almost 4 years? A molly maid-dust cleaner and 4 megs. I must say as a current 1ds2 owner I cant find a compelling reason to drop 4-5K more after selling my camera for this 1DS2-N upgrade.
Thats my opinion. Yours may be different. And its OK if it is.
Given that MF digibacks start at around 22 Mpixel, I'd say that, YES, the 1Ds III has entered the MF space. Close enough anyway.
If you want to preview with more resolution, then get the wireless connection and link to a laptop or computer and preview on your monitor instead...
What's the use of 16-bit files, if the DR is around 8 to 9 stops? It's 14 bit RAW, and that's more than enough to cover the dynamic range. 16-bit RAW only becomes essential when the DR is in the 12-stop range. (Just like some digital backs.)
Ok, so you're bitter about it. That's how you feel. No one forces you to upgrade. If your 1Ds II is enough, then be happy with it. But not everyone agrees with your gloomy assesment.
Tentacle wrote:
Given that MF digibacks start at around 22 Mpixel, I'd say that, YES, the 1Ds III has entered the MF space. Close enough anyway.
If you want to preview with more resolution, then get the wireless connection and link to a laptop or computer and preview on your monitor instead...
What's the use of 16-bit files, if the DR is around 8 to 9 stops? It's 14 bit RAW, and that's more than enough to cover the dynamic range. 16-bit RAW only becomes essential when the DR is in the 12-stop range. (Just like some digital backs.)
Ok, so you're bitter about it. That's how you feel. No one forces you to upgrade. If your 1Ds II is enough, then be happy with it. But not everyone agrees with your gloomy assesment. ...Show more →
Im not bitter, not in the slightest. Im simply pointing out that its not much of an improvement for CURRENT 1ds2 owners. On the other hand if you own a 10D you probably think its the best thing since sliced bread. But 10D owners arent going to pop out 8K are they?
If you pay close attention to my post you responded to you will see on line 2 that we asked for more dynamic range. That would tie in with 16 bit. Guess you glazed over that.
To be honest 16bit and 11-12 stops of dynamic range would have sold me. But 8 stops and 14 bit? How much will the 8 stops hamper the 14 bit? If you take a look at the link I posted earlier to the 11 full size images you can also see a whole lot O noise in iso 1600. No improvement there either. Whats the huge attraction for current owners of the 1ds2? Would you take a 4-5,000 dollar hit for this?
Edited by madmax200 on Aug 21, 2007 at 08:58 AM GMT
Edited by madmax200 on Aug 21, 2007 at 09:00 AM GMT
I'm not a professional photographer, just love to photograph.
I have been climbing the ladder of photography, starting with film SLR many years ago, before I went digital with the 10D. Got my hands on a 1DM2 some years ago, and finally upgraded to the 1D3 two months ago.
For me, the cameras have grown with me, as I have learned a lot, both by learning to use the camera, and by hanging around these inspiring forums.
I for sure are happy with the upgrade from the M2. Still feel there are a lot to learn about this great camera, but would say I'm very pleased. No problems with AI servo that affects my type of shooting/conditions at least.
As long as the camera performs the way it should/I expect, I see no reason to complain. Those who feel the upgrade from the 1ds2 to the new 1ds3 isn't good enough do at least have to spend money on upgrading :-)
I knew the specs of my new camera when I bought it, and got just what I wanted.
I do not know how good photographers you all are (even though the standard here are quite high :-D) but I doubt the new 1dsM3 will be what stops most of you from taking good pictures. And the 1D2 still takes great images even though I love my 1D3...
I still think the images from the 1Ds3 will be great :-)
Yeah, a camera that processes only a hundred million pixels per second. What a rip.
If the MKIII falls short of what can be done now, then Nikon or Sony will kick Canon's butt. Otherwise, this is the state of the art. Clearly past a point incremental improvement is very expensive. 50% more camera than the 40D at 6x the price.
On a side note, I don't think these newer sensors that reduce the amount of wasted space require better lenses than the older models. Since the actual photo diode remains about the same size, it seems to me that the new sensor is using previously unused image area.
madmax200 wrote:
Im not bitter, not in the slightest. Im simply pointing out that its not much of an improvement for CURRENT 1ds2 owners. On the other hand if you own a 10D you probably think its the best thing since sliced bread. But 10D owners arent going to pop out 8K are they?
I am also a current 1Ds2 user, and have been for more than a couple of years (I got one within 3 or 4 months of it being available).
More DR would be nice for sure. Another 4MP is not a reason for me to upgrade either though.
The 'molly made' cleaner is a bigger deal to me, and if I could get it as an add on to my 1Ds2 I absolutely would - because it would save me hours of PP cleanup for shots where I had to change lenses outside, in a breeze, with no alternatives. I did this a year ago with a 1Ds2 and a 400D side by side. The 1Ds2 sensor was covered in dust while the 400D was clean as a whistle - not one single spec to clean up. I was a convert, and have been ever since (though I sold the 400D for other reasons).
For sure, you can clean your sensor before and after a shoot, but dust gets in 'during' an outdoor shoot, and that's when it's a killer.
Even so, there is nothing here that will make we sell my 1Ds2 'cheap' so that I can rush to upgrade. The 1Ds2 is still one of the best DSLRs made (IMHO).
The 1Ds3 will be a good seler for Canon, I have no doubt. There are always some people who will be excited and lust after it, some less than excited (like me) and some who are just plain critical. That's OK. There is room for everyone
I just bought a new 1Ds Mark II 50 days ago. I talked to 3 Canon reps before I did and strickly asked them if there was an update coming soon. They said "haven't heard anything, probably early to mid 08." 50 days later, there it is on amazon.com. I would have held up on one of my biggest purchases of my life if I would have known there was something days away from being announced. My first reaction: boy was I pissed. Buying a camera of this price is an investment, and to know 50 days after purchase that it is out of date, really ticked me off. I am calm now.
Don't get me wrong thought, the 1Ds Mark II is a freakin masterpiece, just wish I had that larger screen, picture styles, and all the addition features for basically the same price would have been nice. Maybe I will trade my 30d and 1Ds Mark II in for one once all the bugs are worked out.
Aug 21, 2007 at 12:21 PM
Lars Johnsson Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
madmax200 wrote:
Im not bitter, not in the slightest. Im simply pointing out that its not much of an improvement for CURRENT 1ds2 owners. On the other hand if you own a 10D you probably think its the best thing since sliced bread. But 10D owners arent going to pop out 8K are they?
If you pay close attention to my post you responded to you will see on line 2 that we asked for more dynamic range. That would tie in with 16 bit. Guess you glazed over that.
To be honest 16bit and 11-12 stops of dynamic range would have sold me. But 8 stops and 14 bit? How much will the 8 stops hamper the 14 bit? If you take a look at the link I posted earlier to the 11 full size images you can also see a whole lot O noise in iso 1600. No improvement there either. Whats the huge attraction for current owners of the 1ds2? Would you take a 4-5,000 dollar hit for this?
Edited by madmax200 on Aug 21, 2007 at 08:58 AM GMT
Edited by madmax200 on Aug 21, 2007 at 09:00 AM GMT...Show more →
All the time you just talk about that current 1DsmkII owners don't want to upgrade. And that they are not pleased with the improvements and so on. It's not like you must upgrade every time a new camera is released
I'm sure that Canon have more interest in the other 99,9% that don't own the 1DSmkII camera. It will be a great camera for them of course.
And to expect between 3 and 4 full stops improvement in dynamic range is just ridiculous, and not realistic.
Bitch,bitch,bitch.........
The funny thing isn't that all the people moaning about this camera will buy it anyway, it's that they won't buy it for the same reason they don't have the 1DS-MKII, they can't afford it. It's interesting to discuss the top of the line, but for most of us, like myself, it will never go past the discussion phase.
I've seen the Mamiya ZD mentioned a few times in this thread. Here's a review some of you might find interesting : http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/mamiya_zd/index.html
Personally, I'll stick with my 5D and see what shakes out for next year. The dust thing is a waste of time AFAIC, and the live view only midly interests me. I'm sure the 5D replacement will have all the stuff the rest of the line does.
Now, if I could afford it, I'd certainly be interested in the DS3, although I have some concerns about the lens requirements for a 21MP body. I only use L primes from the 24 1.4 through the 200 2.8 excluding the 50 1.2. If you need to buy a whole new line of glass, you might as well go MF.
Good luck.
