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Archive 2007 · My First shots with the S5

  
 
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #1 · My First shots with the S5


chris78cpr wrote:
Can you post a couple of 100% crops of an original unedited file just to see how sharpness is straight out the camera in a normal situation.

If you could do a D200 shot aswell that would be great as a comparison would be nice.


Ah hell... why not.

Since the event, I printed a 18x12 of a similar image from the S5, and it it can definitely be printed MUCH larger.

**EDIT: My bad... I have been talking about using a 15-50 f/2.8 :/. I was using a 28-75 f/2.8 Tamron on these shots.

Now, I hope no one is taking my comparisons as something official. They are not. I am not trying to make people take sides etc. They are just 2 shots I took during shooting before going on my way to shoot other stuff I needed to get. (A real life situation shot)

The Fuji is a 2016x3024 @ 72 DPI
28W x 42H inches

The D200 is 2592x3872 @ 300 DPI
8.64W x 12.907H inches

Below is a shot of the difference in overall scale size comes out of the final "FINE" jpeg from each camera if you were looking at a canvas. This would be the size ratio.
http://www.philipcuencofilms.com/test/s5d200comparisons/d200_s5_size.jpg

Now lets get closer. PLEASE RIGHT CLICK>SAVE AS!!!! Thanks!
This is at 100%. (with left of the image deleted from the S5)
These images were saved as maximum sized jpegs. The same exact formats I use when I send stuff to get printed. I know these images look pretty *bleh* and not so impressive at 100% in terms of pixels and noise. But when they get printed, it looks awesome.

D200 and S5 side by side. Uncompressed.

Now, lets see what the S5 would look like, scaled 28.4% higher. (this will make the S5 image the same image size height as the D200 image)
D200 and S5 Scaled to 128.4%

ok ok... so the S5 looks blurry.
Lucky for me, I unsharp mask 60% of my images.
Here is the S5 with unsharp mask applied.

S5 with unsharp mask



Edited by Philip Cuenco on Mar 21, 2007 at 04:39 AM GMT



Mar 20, 2007 at 11:32 PM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #2 · My First shots with the S5


chris78cpr wrote:
Signed
A canon user seriously considering an S5 and 17-55F2.8.


Hi Chris,

I saw your signature of gear. Why get one if you already have a Mark II? Or you can even consider a 5D? At least you can still use your same lenses. Just curious.



Mar 20, 2007 at 11:38 PM
eaglewolf
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p.2 #3 · My First shots with the S5


I like what I see from the S5 here. I have considered a second D200, but maybe an S5 would also be a good option. Something to consider down the road. Nice shots, by the way.

Then again, the D2Xs is the camera that always pulls pretty hard to get my business. If only there wasn't that $4500 or so price tag!



Mar 20, 2007 at 11:50 PM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #4 · My First shots with the S5


Yah I feel you, Eagle... I was in the same boat when I had my D70. Clients wanted 10+mp and at least 300 pics per runway show. My D70 couldn't deliver that amount of images. The quality was there, but the images were not. I was going to go for a D2X as well, but I figured I'd go with a full frame if I were to dish out that amount of cash.


Mar 21, 2007 at 12:00 AM
fishfilm
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p.2 #5 · My First shots with the S5


Hey Philip,

I really appreciate (as do many others here I'm sure) the time and trouble you take to post relevant and worthwhile, not to mention entertaining, images here from the two cams. Including download instructions and a complete explanation of how to compare the two images. No wonder you are working and booked. No bother, no fuss, just "here is what you requested". And we aren't even paying although I'll bet a few of us are filing you away as someone to hire if we need help or a certain skill set. Good lesson here for all of us.



Mar 21, 2007 at 12:15 AM
James R
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p.2 #6 · My First shots with the S5


Phillip,

The Fuji sales rep at the Pasadena Photo confab last month said the S5 had an effective megpixel of around 9, while some reviewers put the EM at around 6 to 7. I'm not really sure how to gage the Fuji sensor.

I'm considering one as a backup. The problem is that the images are very different from my D2Xs. Don't your clients want consistent colors? If so, duplicating the look and feel of either might require too much PP.

At this moment the price tag seems a little high. In computers, photography, and the stock market, timing is everything. Thinking it might be wise to wait until November and see if Nikon replaces the D2H's.

Thanks for the posts, they were very interesting.



Mar 21, 2007 at 12:51 AM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #7 · My First shots with the S5


James R wrote:
I'm considering one as a backup. The problem is that the images are very different from my D2Xs. Don't your clients want consistent colors? If so, duplicating the look and feel of either might require too much PP.

At this moment the price tag seems a little high. In computers, photography, and the stock market, timing is everything. Thinking it might be wise to wait until November and see if


Hi James,

After the shoot, I thought the same thing about different looks of images. But my clients never mentioned anything of it. They just looked if the image looked nice or not. I printed 12 of my best shots at 12x18 and delivered them. 1/2 from the S5... 1/2 from the D200. They never mentioned why they looked different, when it was obviously different. All they did was smile and say say wow. One girl said, wow they are nice colors, and asked why they looked different, and I explained one was from the Fuji. But they they didn't care. They were satisfied that they got images 7 hours after the party and didn't expect the prints.

I mean, the D200 is a great camera, and it's cheaper. If you need a fast shooting cam and want to save some bucks, definitely get it. But personally, I like being able to shoot 800-1600 ISO images with minimal noise and no need for flash. It really helps shooting the backstage this year as well as other events.


As far as waiting... I feel that people who can wait, usually wait because they don't really "need" an extra camera. My definition of need in the photo world is something that you have to have to increase your profits and help you deliver the best quality image possible, for the budget that is in your pocket.

I was looking around for local retailers who would start carrying the S5. One of the vendors was actually saying I am better off just getting a D200 and waiting until the end of the year for Nikon's new camera. Unfortunately, Fashion Week is Spring and Fall. Those are my 2 biggest weeks of the year. I can't wait for that and need to see what can service me asap.

The problem with me is that I waited too long to get the D200. I could have gotten it in Fall and shot Fall 07' with it, but decided to wait.... and I waited...

Then in December, someone tells me to wait until 1st quarter 07' "for the new Nikon! They have to be coming out with something new soon to respond to Canon's 5D and high ISO and full frame cameras right?! Wait Till' February!" ...wrong. NIKON now brings you.... D40!!!! Now I look back, and if I didn't get that D200, I would have been screwed out of 5 jobs because I would not have had a camera that was at least 10mp due to waiting. The D2X is great. I love it. I would easily use one, but for the price I bought more lenses, batteries, and high speed compact flashes, RAM, and hard drive space.

Before I dished out the cash for the D200, I was a pinch close to getting a Mark II. But I couldn't get over the fact that I'd have to buy new glass. I also had a huge event being offered to me later that night which required 500+ images at 10mp quality. So I took the job, then went down and bought the D200 the next day because that's all I could afford. I just couldn't wait.

One thing about my D200 also... I rented a 70-200 VR 2.8 lens for my first time using it. I shot one fashion show with it... and on the second... my D200 croaked. The battery was at 90% from the first show. Next thing I know, the battery indicator shows dead and I couldn't take a pic. So I quickly switched out the battery for a new one... and same thing. Camera showed the battery as dead. So I wound up shooting the entire show with the S5.

Now, had I waited on a backup camera.... lol. If I didn't have the S5 there, I would have been shooting with the D70.... which in turn, would have delivered 6mp images... and would have in turn made a very unhappy client.

fishfilm wrote:
Hey Philip,

I really appreciate (as do many others here I'm sure) the time and trouble you take to post relevant and worthwhile, not to mention entertaining, images here from the two cams.


Hey thanks fish. Much appreciated. I mean, I just wanted to pretty much show real-world scenario of what I have to go through. When I was searching for my first DSLR, I couldn't find anyone who could show actual WORK. It was... hey.. check out this cave. Now check out this cave at 800 iSO. now check it out at 200 ISO. OK. Now check out the color chart. And compare the Color chart in RAW. Then 20 people argue about it and talk about sensor sensitivity and skin tone etc etc.. that doesn't help me make or save money.

Reviews like that stuff is cool to see and read up on. I am glad someone is doing it. But that doesn't help me. What helps me is someone showing how a camera can effectively be used for work the type of work you do, and letting their images do the talking. I have a friend who shot with a 3 megapixel pentax DSLR until 2 years ago, who still shoots amazing shots and has had his stuff blown up over 5 foot posters.

My clients don't give a flying 0@% about that. All they care about is the SAME thing... over and over and time again...

That ONE thing is:
1) Content.
(did you get the shot of so-and-so? Did you get a shot of this?) Content is always the #1 deciding factor for my clients. Did you get a picture of the billboard of the sponsor outside the hotel? Did you get a picture of the sign for the event? Did you get a picture of the crowd walking in?

Then they ask...
2) Can you get us the images before 10am the next morning or sooner? (Fashion is very fast paced. If you don't get your images out in 1-3 days, they're pretty much no good)

(But if they are hiring me, usually they already know they can do that)
3) Can they print it? And can they make it big? And do they have at least a variety of images to choose from? (usually big means over 3 feet)

All they seem to care about is if it is in focus and if the image is bright enough...
They don't sit there analyzing the skin tone of it being too pink or yellow. Or the dress catching yellow highlights. All they care about is if an image is in focus, you can tell who the person is, and they aren't purple..... But then again, this is the type of stuff I have to deal with. I am sure not everyone has that dilemma and they have different client needs. However, this is the stuff that pays my bills. Not some beautiful shot of a tree with the sun rising in the distance.

Someone emailed me about the pictures about the color difference and how they can look similar. I am not denying it can. I'm sure it's more than capable of doing it (but I am not going to sit there fiddling with the menu buttons and image control until it looks perfect ).



Mar 21, 2007 at 03:31 AM
chris78cpr
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p.2 #8 · My First shots with the S5


Philip Cuenco wrote:
Hi Chris,

I saw your signature of gear. Why get one if you already have a Mark II? Or you can even consider a 5D? At least you can still use your same lenses. Just curious.


5D is old technology, im going to wait until it's replaced before i make a definitive choice.

Ilike the D200 body shape and im really liking the quality of files from the S5. I also really like the 17-55F2.8 from nikon and find it very versatile. I like nikon and fancy a 200F2VR or 200-400F4, both lenses that canon don't offer.

I wont abandon canon, but i might use nikon alongside it.

time will tell though.

Chris



Mar 22, 2007 at 07:54 AM
Mozbee
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p.2 #9 · My First shots with the S5


chris78cpr wrote:
5D is old technology, ...
Chris


By curiosity, which limitations do you experience with the 5D that lead you to consider it old technology?



Mar 22, 2007 at 09:23 AM
sleepwalker33
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p.2 #10 · My First shots with the S5


Not to derail this topic, but does the d200 always get the white balance so wrong? Is this just a RAW issue, or a poor ability to measure colour temp?

The attractive celebrity looks extremely tan with the d200 and perhaps a bit white with the S5 I would ideally like something in between the two extremes closer to the S5 I suppose.

I'm getting a d200 and am now afraid I will be disappointed by poor WB.



Mar 22, 2007 at 01:20 PM
poisonpill
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p.2 #11 · My First shots with the S5


chris78cpr wrote:


A little off topic but doesn't Tamron offer the 17-50mm F/2.8 for canon as well? Many have made direct comparisons between that and the Nikkor 17-55mm and the difference in IQ is insignificant if any. Also the Nikkor is a huge piece of glass and quite cumbersome, thought it would definitely give you the look of a "pro".


sleepwalker33 wrote:
Not to derail this topic, but does the d200 always get the white balance so wrong? Is this just a RAW issue, or a poor ability to measure colour temp?


Philip's samples were pre-set WB though. It might be different with AWB (not necessarily better). Phil's workflow is based on maximum speed too. If you had the time to tinker a bit with the in-camera settings as well as the raw file afterwards, you would definitely get better shots. I believe the purpose of Phillip's samples were to shot that without much customizing, the S5 shoots better JPGs of people.




Mar 22, 2007 at 01:34 PM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #12 · My First shots with the S5


sleepwalker33 wrote:
Not to derail this topic, but does the d200 always get the white balance so wrong? Is this just a RAW issue, or a poor ability to measure colour temp?

The attractive celebrity looks extremely tan with the d200 and perhaps a bit white with the S5 I would ideally like something in between the two extremes closer to the S5 I suppose.

I'm getting a d200 and am now afraid I will be disappointed by poor WB.


Sleep,

I wouldn't necessarily call it "wrong" WB. This is just what happened to me when I used it on an actual job. I didn't have time to tinker an analyze what was going wrong. The important thing was to just take shots.

Something between the two is certainly achievable between both cameras. But you have to sit there and mess with the settings. I'm sure once you are set, everything will be golden.

Here's an example.... say you wanted something in the middle. That would mean a little more saturation and color. This could have been easily achievable if I set the camera to "F1c" on the S5. (or even F2) It punches the color out more vibrant. Sure I could have changed that in 5 seconds, but I wanted to shoot with Fb for the night. I saw samples at FUJI on the difference between F1b and F1c. I asked what the technician there preferred, and he said he liked F1b. So I shot F1b. Depending on the lighting tonight I may shoot F1c (which is recommended by the user manual and camera for fashion shooting).

The F modes were made to simulate their film looks.

On the D200 end of things, I'd have to have a custom pre-made bank. I have one that I call "Fashion" which is saturated and highest sharpened" and adjusting hue. But it doesn't always come through depending on the lighting.

Now... if every single event gave me a minute or 2, to have a model walk down on a lit runway as if it were live to setup the D200 WB and color settings, I could get pretty close to that S5 in terms of color. .....but yah... only in a perfect world that would actually happen. lol. Even if I did get that chance, that's still something I would have to do every single event because lighting is never the same in these venues.




Mar 22, 2007 at 05:24 PM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #13 · My First shots with the S5


Ok.

So fashion week has come to an end. And I thought I would write a brief overall description so far. (I will make a full report and organize this more on my website when I get more time.) For now, this is what I did.

By the end of fashion week, I was getting used to WB and color settings. I honestly forgot what settings I used on the D200, but I changed hue, saturation, and kept sharpness high.

As for the S5, I got brave and decided to increase color +1 and increased the file size to large. and... increased sharpness to +2. I wish I had kept sharpnesss to 0, but I didn't know what would happen. Trial and error. But anyway, situation was slightly different this time with the D200. I tinkered with it for about 15 minutes before the show and let everyone in. I actually lucked out and they left the lights on the runway while the lighting dude went to the bathroom.

So I sat there and just kept changing image settings on the D200 with a piece of blue and red cloths on the runway.

The D200 had the Nikkor Glass f/2.8 80-200 while the S5 was armed with the Tamron f/2.8 27-75. I did not modify any of these pictures, except to resize them for internet size.

Here is the new canvas size we will be looking at. The Fuji had more pixel canvas size compared to the D200. So I copied the D200 with 300dpi onto the Fuji 72dpi image and just deleted half the image. I noticed alot of people talking about the sharpness in another thread. So I figured the subjects I shot (soft beautiful skin) with heavy cloth movements. And another dress with ridges.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/s5d200aspect.jpg

And 100% uncompressed and untouched closeup of the 2.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/facetoface.jpg

Here is a darker skinned model:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/purple_side.jpg

...and a lighter skinned model with vibrant color.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/S5d200_sideside.jpg

I won't get into technicalities of what settings I shot and what I metered off and what focus I used. This is simply to show the result of a real-world job and the results I got at the time. The next time I shoot with an S5, I will shoot with sharpening to zero, and probably increase color to 2 just to see how saturated it really can get. There was too much noise for my taste on the S5 at +2. I printed an 8x12 and the noise is barely noticeable, but I really don't know how this will look if it is blown up bigger.

Normally for final prints, I always add a noise layer on top of the image and put some in. I like a little graininess in my images.



Mar 24, 2007 at 12:21 AM
darag2358
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p.2 #14 · My First shots with the S5


Great thread. Thanks for all the examples.


Mar 24, 2007 at 10:30 AM
poisonpill
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p.2 #15 · My First shots with the S5


This will please some people since it proves the D200 can do similar looking shots. However, I still see that the S5 does better with darker skinned skintones than the D200. That was my big complaint with my D2Hs - it renders darker skintones too yellow. As an Asian man shooting a lot of asian subjects, I find this is pretty annoying.


Mar 24, 2007 at 03:51 PM
Nathan Crisman
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p.2 #16 · My First shots with the S5


This is great info, thanks. Im in the process deciding between a D200 and the S5. I bought a used S3 about a month ago and really just can't deal with the slow performance for when I do oddball stuff (motocross, marching band) that requires me to get alot of shots in a short 3-4 minute timespan.

It seems the S5 might be the best comprimise.Im currently working as a wedding second and my boss is really set on Fuji, but I need the body to still be adaquate in speed for my freelance jobs.

Guess I better get out $1900 and start hunting for one in stockand sell off this S3.

Thanks for the real world back to back comparisons



Mar 24, 2007 at 04:40 PM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #17 · My First shots with the S5


Nathan Crisman wrote:
This is great info, thanks. Im in the process deciding between a D200 and the S5. I bought a used S3 about a month ago and really just can't deal with the slow performance for when I do oddball stuff (motocross, marching band) that requires me to get alot of shots in a short 3-4 minute timespan.


If you do sports primarily... then definitely get the D200. BUT... if the bulk of your business comes from people, consider the S5. But it all depends on how you shoot. For the most part, I TRY to anticipate shots and fire them off when I loc a focus. However, every once in awhile I say to myself... (Damn... if only I had been able to shoot a couple of frames in between while he was on the turn or mid-air). That doesn't happen too much and I just kind of let it go only try to improve next time for anticipation.


Nathan Crisman wrote:
It seems the S5 might be the best comprimise.Im currently working as a wedding second and my boss is really set on Fuji, but I need the body to still be adaquate in speed for my freelance jobs.

Guess I better get out $1900 and start hunting for one in stockand sell off this S3.


Well, which pays more? If you make more money doing people events, then go for the S5. You will be able to pay for a D200 to go with it sooner than you can use a D200 to make money with in purchase for an S5 if the weddings pay you more.

_______________________

*also for side-note reference... Some people asked me if I shoot non-celeb status peopl. Yes, I do shoot normal (non-celeb) status people Here is a normal people one. Lighting was pretty low. I had to use the illuminator to focus and then lock it. This was in F1b in P* -1/3

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/bebe/A_DSCF1260.jpg

I also shot a couple of artsy shots playing with the camera and see how it could hold with hand held long exposures. This one, my hand was just moving way too much. One of the rare moments when I shoot and I tell myself.. "I wish I had a tripod and remote!" lol.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/bebe/M_DSCF1249.jpg


This shot below took me a few attempts. Well, 4 to be exact. I shot it after most the celebs had left, but there were still some partiers hanging out. I tried to get a little artsy with the neonic lights accross the pool. I think my exposure was around 1.3sec. Forgot the rest of the preferences.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/bebe/M_DSCF1272.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/bebe/M_DSCF1266.jpg

I got an email asking if I shot a situation with AutoWB with almost NO lighting. This lighting below was NOT visible in my viewfinder. I had to use the illuminator once again to focus. And this came out of the S5. Unfortunately I don't have any near pitch black situations where I had to use a flash, and hope what comes out. To my surprise, NOTHING was blown out in this picture as far as highlights. My SB-800 would have definitely made some VERY warm skin. (I added a slight soft-focus) on the skin.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/bebe/taylorerin.jpg

This is what the setups looked (minus the quantums). For the most part, the S5 had the Tamron lens mounted onto it and looked to the strobo. Someone also emailed if I had anything mounted to the flash. I used a lumiquest as shown in the pic below. For the most part, The S5 had an SB-600 on it. While I mounted the SB-800 to the D200.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/S5D200cams.jpg

Edited by Philip Cuenco on Mar 25, 2007 at 08:47 PM GMT



Mar 25, 2007 at 04:55 AM
Philip Cuenco
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p.2 #18 · My First shots with the S5


poisonpill wrote:
This will please some people since it proves the D200 can do similar looking shots. However, I still see that the S5 does better with darker skinned skintones than the D200. That was my big complaint with my D2Hs - it renders darker skintones too yellow. As an Asian man shooting a lot of asian subjects, I find this is pretty annoying.


Welp, this is the "unofficial dark-skinned people test between S5 & D200 test". These are images of 2 pretty dark models. This was the day when I had time to mess with my camera and change settings. So the WB and skin tone is a little better than from my first day's test.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/darkskin2.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b86/iphil/tests/darkskin1.jpg



Mar 25, 2007 at 05:29 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #19 · My First shots with the S5


Hello Phillip,

this link did not work for me:

http://web.mac.com/philipcuenco/iWeb/Philip%20Cuenco%20Films/NEWS/712F11E5-DA2D-11DB-913F-000D933E4378_files/imageEffectsAbove_S5D200cams.png

have you tried the LightSphere? I swear by the "cloud" model for portraits. Cheers, kl



Mar 25, 2007 at 06:39 AM
poisonpill
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p.2 #20 · My First shots with the S5


It's amazing, every time I scroll down to see your images I can guess which one is the S5 because it's the one more eye pleaseing. And you mix it up too, some with the D200 shot first and vice versa.

The S5 truly does skintones nice.



Mar 26, 2007 at 12:44 AM
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