Square sensors (36 x 36 mm) will not work with the EF lens line, period. Not only is there the flare baffle issue, but the coverage circle of EF is just a hair larger than 43 mm, which is the diagonal of 24 x 36 mm Full Frame. The diagonal on 36 x 36 mm is 51 mm, which would be horribly and irretrievably vignetted by the 43 mm image circle.
However ...
There are persistent rumors about a new lens line, usually phrased as something like higher resolution, and not quite ready in time for the Sept 2006 Photokina, hence so many disappointed people that there was no big replacement of the 1DsII then. Also, this is the 20th anniversary of the EOS / EF system and 70th of Canon.
Further, last year, in June, Chuck Westfall was quoted in PCPhoto as saying with cameras such as the EOS 5D and 1DS Mark II, they’re putting some high demands on the performance of any given lens. So we’re certainly looking at ways of improving evenness of illumination and corner sharpness." I also remember him being quoted about something like 2007 will be a big year for Canon DSLRs, but I haven't been able to chase down a link.
So I wonder if the combination of the two rumors (some form of "medium format" Canon DSLR and new lenses) with the auspicious occasion and hints of something big and the delay of the replacement top-of-the-line model might play out as follows:
... Maybe Canon will think that since the EF-S line of lenses and cameras is such a great success, why not have three lines. They could make an EF+ (EF-Plus) line that would be to EF what EF is to EF-S. Which is to say that EF+ would fit all of the Canon DSLRs, but EF would not fit the new top-of-the-line DSLR. EF+ would be beyond L in lens quality of resolution, to match Canon's increasingly powerful sensors. EF+ would be the simplest and most direct way to address the vignetting and corner sharpness that Westfall referred to, by expanding the image circle. Tantalizingly, NorthLight is reporting a sighting of a $17,000 1DsIII briefly on the 24th on a Dutch site: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html
So you read it here first: EF+. If Canon does something spectacular (and all the signs point to something), outside of just a simple extrapolation to a 22 MPixel 1DsIII, they will make a larger sensor and a line of larger lenses, but not medium format. A Foveon-like sensor is much lower probability, in my estimation. I am the last one to be plugged in to shmoozing reps or semiconductor agents or high-level muckety-mucks: I am just speculating.
Monito wrote:
Which is to say that EF+ would fit all of the Canon DSLRs, but EF would not fit the new top-of-the-line DSLR.
Surely just from a marketing point of view it would have to be the other way round...
EF bodies take EF lenses
EF+ bodies take EF lenses (with some limitations) and EF+ lenses (with improved quality)
A new body line that does not accept exisiting lenses in any way does not seem like it would be a big seller if EF bodies could take old and new lenses........
I think the point of the lenses as mentioned by Monito is that it wouldn't make sense for EF lenses to fit a camera with a larger sensor. The EF lenses will vignette on the larger sensor, just as EF-S lenses would vignette on a 35mm sensor/film camera.
Yes, I understand they would vignette, but would you not rather face a new body with a high resolution sensor that would need to opperate in a cropped mode with EF lenses, compared with not being able to use any glass you already owned at all and having to rebuy all the lenses in a new and expensive format?
Oh well, you see thats different. Cropped mode. Colin, I take it back.
It would probably be able detect an EF lens and go into crop mode automatically. The legendry, futuristic, rumour milled, full-frame D3X has been talked about doing the same thing, that way DX lenses could still be used. We at FM think of everything.
Actual, a square sensor gets rid of a lot of Canon's marketing problems that have been created by the 5D. That said, there are a number of good reasons why MF cameras are much bigger than 35mm or so unless Canon has figured out how to defy the laws of physics then one would expect a much bigger body (regardless of shape) and a lens system that is incompatiable with the existing EF mount in either direction.
For those youngens out there that don't remember, check out the Pentax 67. A square format 35mm wouldn't have to be as large but it s going to be bigger than what exists now.
New 30d with greater pixel density but same megapixels. This will allow Canon to increase crop factor from 1.6 to 1.8. They may even split the line into two new cameras one with 2.0 crop and a crippled version with only 1.8 crop for less money.
Volleybob wrote:
New 30d with greater pixel density but same megapixels. This will allow Canon to increase crop factor from 1.6 to 1.8. They may even split the line into two new cameras one with 2.0 crop and a crippled version with only 1.8 crop for less money.
The more crop the better. I don't know how Canon can continue to ignore we 2x crop shooters. Who wouldn't want a built-in 2x TC in every lens! And just think of the pixel density!
nikt wrote:
Ryans regular job when he's not acting marketing manager is Consumer Imaging Products Group, Manager, which includes DSLR's, by the way. And if he said in the same magazine that the '22MP 1DsmkIII' was being released, I bet you'd care then.
Probably. My point was that you didn't mention in what context he was saying this. If he was specifically talking about DSLRs it would have been interesting. DSLRs have a very small part of Canon camera earnings, so when marketing people speak in general terms about upcoming cameras, DSLR-features and DSLR-competition are very low on the list.
Interesting... My sense is that (just) you could change the sensor size to 36mm by 36mm instead of 36 x 24. Looking in the camera there seems to be more than the 8mm clear before the electrical contacts at the bottom. I suspect that the SLR mirror action would need to change (sideways or down perhaps) so as to not snag the lens... However I see no reason why you couldn't get a 36 x 36mm image out of any existing EF series lens... Indeed, if the mirror action was changed enough it may be possible to mount the EF-S lenses and electronically crop...
Imagine it - a 36 x 36mm sensor - that’s 50% more pixels for the same sensor pixel size... If we are thinking 22Mp for a APS sensor this new APS_M format would be 33MP...
A 24X36 mm sensor requires that a lens project an image circle diamter of at least 43.27 mm at the focal plane, which is roughly what Canon's EF lenses provide. A 36X36 mm sensor would require an image circle of 50.91 mm, which is larger than the image circle projected by most, if not all Canon lenses. In fact, I doubt that there are but a small handful of 35-mm camera lenses that would be capable of projecting an image circle that large.
So while a 36X36 mm image might be a great idea, it would require a new, larger set of lenses.
Yakim Peled wrote:
Indeed interesting.
What is more interesting - at least IMHO - is the 28/1.8 USM - is the most flare prone lens I ever used. That leads me to believe that this built-in rectangular baffle is completely useless. My 17-40/4 does not have it and it is extremely flare resistant. I guess that improved design is better than adding all sort of aids.
I think that a good part of the difference is the quality of glass and coatings used between the two lenses. The 17-40 is an exceptionally flare-free lens, noticeably better in that respect than my 16-35L. It's also a much newer design compared to the 28/1.8 (which could use a bit of updating).
Joel Slack wrote:
The more crop the better. I don't know how Canon can continue to ignore we 2x crop shooters. Who wouldn't want a built-in 2x TC in every lens! And just think of the pixel density!
Monito wrote:
If Canon does something spectacular (and all the signs point to something),
Do they? I mean "real" signs, not just the ever present rumour mill and fake images/postings that pop up every so often. I haven't seen a real sign of anything yet.
Monito wrote:
Which is to say that EF+ would fit all of the Canon DSLRs, but EF would not fit the new top-of-the-line DSLR.
ColinSmith wrote:
Surely just from a marketing point of view it would have to be the other way round... EF bodies take EF lenses, EF+ bodies take EF lenses (with some limitations) and EF+ lenses (with improved quality). A new body line that does not accept exisiting lenses in any way does not seem like it would be a big seller if EF bodies could take old and new lenses........
Of course. How else to interpret what I wrote? In Canon terminology (which I used) EF / EF+ refers to lenses, DSLR refers to camera. Your terminology is loose and confusing. There is no such thing as an "EF body".
nikt wrote:
I think the point of the lenses as mentioned by Monito is that it wouldn't make sense for EF lenses to fit a camera with a larger sensor. The EF lenses will vignette on the larger sensor, just as EF-S lenses would vignette on a 35mm sensor/film camera.
ColinSmith wrote:
Yes, I understand they would vignette, but would you not rather face a new body with a high resolution sensor that would need to opperate in a cropped mode with EF lenses, compared with not being able to use any glass you already owned at all and having to rebuy all the lenses in a new and expensive format?
Ah, now, a cropped mode makes sense, and is a good idea. The camera could detect that it had a regular EF lens mounted and the viewfinder and sensor system could automatically adjust to avoid vignetting. The problem is that a larger sensor requires a larger mirror and that may hit the EF wide angle lenses, which is the whole reason why EF-S lenses are prevented from fitting on FullFrame cameras.
Monito wrote:
If Canon does something spectacular (and all the signs point to something),
Lotusm50 wrote:
Do they? I mean "real" signs, not just the ever present rumour mill and fake images/postings that pop up every so often. I haven't seen a real sign of anything yet.
We won't believe anything until an FM member captures a picture onto their own CF card with a new camera and posts about it. Fair enough.
However, Westfall promised 2007 would be a big year. The 1DsII is overdue by 6 to 12 months on renewal, depending how you count it. 2007 is Canon's 70th anniversary and the 20th of EOS (notice how Canon synchronized EOS introduction with a prior decade anniversary). Even the unusual tightness that there are no leaks is a real sign that something bigger than just a simple upgrade of the top of the line is coming.
I heard Canon leaked an announcement, in Asia, of the 40D. My camera salesman told me to wait on buying another DSLR for a few weeks. What that means... I don't know. So I asked about EF-S lenses, he said, "They're dead in the water, they're going to FF. "They're" could mean Canon or the buying public I didn't really know how he meant it and I didn't want to ask. He's a Nikon shooter so I kind of thought he meant Canon. The guy told me to come back in a couple weeks just before the announcement of the 20D. So, I just listened, bought a couple things and I'm going to wait a few weeks.
