I am on a few lists but so far no luck. I am also leaving for a four week assignment on Monday so I think it will be 2007 before it will happen. Oh well.
Those tests are in line with my own - proves that current sensors have a usefull dynamic range for most situations. MF backs are even better in the 11-13 stop range. Some scenes are even beyond this range and you get into the realms of HDRI. Up until a few years ago reversal film was the main pro capture medium for use in repro and a DR of just over 1/2 of what these sensors can do was the norm then.
I bought the M8 as an alternative to the 5D - not a replacement for the 5D. They are completely different cameras and each have their advantages and disadvantages.
I got the 5D when it was first released and on my first day out with it (13th frame to be exact) I new I had found a great camera. The images it produced had a better look to them (compared to my 20D) that I could not easily describe, but I saw it immediately. I was very happy and felt it was well worth the cost of the camera. I have used the 5D to get some great images over the last year and many different locations. The biggest problem I had with the 5D was that it got me used to excellent images and made it difficult for me to comprimise on using point and shoot cameras for travel and family shots. As a result, I developed a deep desire for a small camera with image quality on par with the 5D. I say "on par" because it didn't have to be as good in all conditions, but good enough so there wouldn't be much if any trade-off.
Enter the M8. The early reviews indicated that it was the camera I had been longing for. So, I got one and have been very happy with size, and image quality even with the known issues. Granted it is very expensive and probably over priced in comparison to other digital cameras, but I guess that is the priviledge of not much head-to-head competition. For what I want it for, the M8 is (will be when corrected) the perfect camera. With that said, I also understand that there are some things I like to photograph that the M8 is not suited (e.g., T/S, wildlife) so I will happily continue to use my 5D.
The suprising thing is that I am not a Pro and shoot solely for my own pleasure. Photography is a serious hobby for me an something I have been enjoying since my first slr (Nikkormat FTN) in the mid-70s. With that in mind, you can imagine that some of my buddies give me greif about spending so much money on my hobby. That is when I remind them that I don't have a $30,000 bass boat which only get used 6 or 8 times a year - that usually puts it in perspective for them.
We should all remember that there is no single camera which is perfect for everyone - it just doesn't exist and probably never will. Different strokes for different folks.
c5gowin wrote:
I bought the M8 as an alternative to the 5D - not a replacement for the 5D. They are completely different cameras and each have their advantages and disadvantages.
I got the 5D when it was first released and on my first day out with it (13th frame to be exact) I new I had found a great camera. The images it produced had a better look to them (compared to my 20D) that I could not easily describe, but I saw it immediately. I was very happy and felt it was well worth the cost of the camera. I have used the 5D to get some great images over the last year and many different locations. The biggest problem I had with the 5D was that it got me used to excellent images and made it difficult for me to comprimise on using point and shoot cameras for travel and family shots. As a result, I developed a deep desire for a small camera with image quality on par with the 5D. I say "on par" because it didn't have to be as good in all conditions, but good enough so there wouldn't be much if any trade-off.
Enter the M8. The early reviews indicated that it was the camera I had been longing for. So, I got one and have been very happy with size, and image quality even with the known issues. Granted it is very expensive and probably over priced in comparison to other digital cameras, but I guess that is the priviledge of not much head-to-head competition. For what I want it for, the M8 is (will be when corrected) the perfect camera. With that said, I also understand that there are some things I like to photograph that the M8 is not suited (e.g., T/S, wildlife) so I will happily continue to use my 5D.
The suprising thing is that I am not a Pro and shoot solely for my own pleasure. Photography is a serious hobby for me an something I have been enjoying since my first slr (Nikkormat FTN) in the mid-70s. With that in mind, you can imagine that some of my buddies give me greif about spending so much money on my hobby. That is when I remind them that I don't have a $30,000 bass boat which only get used 6 or 8 times a year - that usually puts it in perspective for them.
We should all remember that there is no single camera which is perfect for everyone - it just doesn't exist and probably never will. Different strokes for different folks....Show more →
Very well said! My thoughts exactly as I have been considering Purchasing a M8 as a travel/walkaround camera which would let me use my M lenses. But it would never replace my 5D or BetterLight scanback which I use for my bread and butter work of fine art reproduction.
I've stayed out of this thread because it seemed to become a Pis***ng match bettween Canon and Leica based on a very few comparative shots.
Anyway, I still feel Canon and Leica fans can co-exist, just picked up a Leica 100mm Apo Macro Elmarit which (as the weather is wonderful today!) will mount on my 5D and go out and shoot some photos!
carstenw wrote:
Wrt. the 17-40L, it is not heavy. The 80 Lux is much heavier. I tend to use the 17-40L at 17mm, and to replace that with something better, I would probably end up with a Zeiss 18mm or Zeiss or Leica 15mm, at much greater expense. If I had stayed with the 5D, I would probably have ended up with the Leica 15mm f/2.8, but that is a very expensive lens and I would have needed a lot of time to save up. On the M8 I will get the CV 15mm, and if I find that I need more, the CV 12mm, both much cheaper and smaller. The CV 15mm is 105g! ...Show more →
The Zuiko 18/3.5 is tiny, weighs just 250g and is a good performer even wide open. The Zuiko 50/1.2 is just 285g and small (takes a 49mm filter), and the Zuiko 85/2 is just 260g (also takes 49mm filters). Throw in a 24/28/35 and you have yourself a light prime kit for a 5D that doesn't cost and arm and a leg, and performs much better than zooms.
As nice as the 80 lux is I wouldn't consider it for travel at 700g. Something like the Zuiko 85/2 weighs about 1/3 of that, is just one stop slower, and is as good performer at all apertures. Considering the lens is used on a 5D with manual focus a f/2 lens may be a better match anyway. Even with a custom prism screen, magnifier, or AF chip it can be very diffcult to focus something like an 80/1.4 correctly on a 5D body.
After 4 months of practice with the 80 Lux and the Ee-S screen, I am getting the hang of it, and am pretty consistent. I would gladly have traded the 17-40L for the Olympus 18mm, but I would not have traded the 80 Lux for any lens in the world. I love shooting that thing. If I end up selling it, I may have to spring for the Summilux-M 75mm f/1.4, which is the same design for the M.
Guy, I printed out the downloadable PDFs for the Lux 80 and 75, as well as the Apo-75/2. I want to compare the data. I will also try to rent a Lux 75 somewhere before deciding on the Cron. I am really torn up about this, because as much I look forward to a razor-sharp 75 Cron, the 80 Lux is such an awesome lens. Maybe I will end up with both. I wish I had more money.
shirozina, everyone should have one, truly. Except perhaps the few who can afford the Zeiss 85mm f/1.2 Jahre models.
> This is an utterly senseless discussion. The point is that the M8 is a rangefinder; those that wish to shoot digital with a rangefinder only had the RD1, which, although it is a pretty good camera, does not live in 5D or D2x territory. Now there is the M8...
> Richard you keep wanting some kind of proof for God knows what reason but honestly no one cares to to even bother
Guys, please calm down. There is nothing unreasonable about my request.
As I have pointed out already, I use top of the range lightweight 35mm equipment for my job. I have no particular attachment to any particular vendor. I have used gear over the years that was both easier and much harder to use than a 5D, or an M8, including rangefinders. I would certainly consider using a rangefinder over the 5D if I thought I could get better results with it, so for me it is not about rangefinders v slrs. I simply want to see, with my own eyes, evidence of the qualities of the M8 as spoken of on this thread. Considering this thread was set up to discuss those qualities, and invited comparison with other equipment, I do not think that my request for some kind soul to post such comparison if she has it, is unreasonable or off-topic.
Richard you keep wanting some kind of proof for God knows what reason but honestly no one cares to to even bother
I care, because I can't afford to buy a lot of equipment, but I do like to use what's currently affordable and best. I don't want two camera systems because it stretches my resources, and confuses me when I am working. I want one system so I don't have to think about using it, and I want it to produce the best pictures I can afford to get. In those circumstances, on the hands-on M8 thread, why shouldn't I ask if anyone has examples of superior dynamic range? Surely this is exactly the kind of discussion and analysis that is appropriate here.
Why is it that every time I ask to see comparative results from this camera, or try to provide them (granted in a way unsatisfactory to everyone here), that everyone goes mental? It's just a camera, and I want to see what it can do, relative to the competition for my wallet.
Maybe it is because each time, you inject something about how everyone is avoiding the question I think people are just busy playing, or more likely, busy waiting. I don't think there is any plot. I will post some images here for sure when I get mine back from Solms.
Thanks carsten. I look forward to seeing that. I am going away for 3 weeks (I just felt a disturbance in the force like 10,000 thread-visitors breathing a sigh of bereavement), otherwise I was going to go up to a Leica dealer who has an M8 to try to do a DR comparison, which I suspect would be better received than my resolution one.
Richard,
I think people here got your message. You are not ignored. It is just that your questions are difficult to be answered. M8 and 5D are not alternative to each other to begin with. Considering the relatively similar pixel pitches, I don't think sensors have any meaningful impact on the image quality. We are looking at the differences in RAW conversion and the lenses. The IQ will depend more on whether you had the good focus ( your comparison shot had this problem ), whether you captured the right moment with good exposure etc.
brainiac wrote:
Guys, please calm down. There is nothing unreasonable about my request.
As I have pointed out already, I use top of the range lightweight 35mm equipment for my job. I have no particular attachment to any particular vendor. I have used gear over the years that was both easier and much harder to use than a 5D, or an M8, including rangefinders. I would certainly consider using a rangefinder over the 5D if I thought I could get better results with it, so for me it is not about rangefinders v slrs. I simply want to see, with my own eyes, evidence of the qualities of the M8 as spoken of on this thread. Considering this thread was set up to discuss those qualities, and invited comparison with other equipment, I do not think that my request for some kind soul to post such comparison if she has it, is unreasonable or off-topic.
I care, because I can't afford to buy a lot of equipment, but I do like to use what's currently affordable and best. I don't want two camera systems because it stretches my resources, and confuses me when I am working. I want one system so I don't have to think about using it, and I want it to produce the best pictures I can afford to get. In those circumstances, on the hands-on M8 thread, why shouldn't I ask if anyone has examples of superior dynamic range? Surely this is exactly the kind of discussion and analysis that is appropriate here.
Why is it that every time I ask to see comparative results from this camera, or try to provide them (granted in a way unsatisfactory to everyone here), that everyone goes mental? It's just a camera, and I want to see what it can do, relative to the competition for my wallet....Show more →
It is not unreasonable, but it is difficult to supply good comparisons on internet jpeg's anyway, crop or not. It would be best is somebody who ownes both camera's would send you some comparative prints. That would provide the information you're seeking. On the other hand, if guys like Guy or Sean or some of the other "real"photographers on this forum claim the top-notch quality of this camera, surely that counts for something.
My post was not trollishly aimed at you, if you experienced it that way I apologize, it was trying to explain that the first consideration for an M8 is : it is a rangefinder, the second: is it good enough. Exactly how much good enough is to some of us not really relevant.
Guy Mancuso wrote:
Jack is having a hard time focusing is more the basic issue.
Jack's not the only one having a hard time focusing... I miss more shots with this camera than I did with the DMR when I first got it, and that's saying something. Nevertheless, with practice I am sure my keeper percentage will improve and there's no doubt in my mind that the images this camera can produce are worth the effort.
David,
Yes, we have to practice focusing again but a little help of a viewfinder magnifier goes a long way. I basically left my viewfinder magnifier on the camera. Thanks to lasiks, I am not wearing glasses anymore . I put my eyes close to the viewfinder and peer through to look at the alignment to compose the shot in case of a wide angle lens. On the other hand. focusing on a wide angle lens is more forgiving.
RF focusing, especially close up is a tricky business and someone should perhaps write a thread about it. I fear I am not fluent enough in English to accurately describe the process though I could do it in Swedish.
When I was using film based Leica M's I had a slightly uneasy feeling everytime I was shooting close up or a portrait in which I had to shift the plane of focus after focusing, i.e. tilting the camera - I knew I would not know for sure until the film was developed. (Same applied for the Contax G camera of course) Coming from SLR territory this was not overly easy to come to grip with. But I found that in the case of portraits it is way easier to slide the camera and focusing patch up to where I would like to place focus and then move it back down (or up) at the very same angle when recomposing. Tilting will cause focus shift but by actually sliding up/down one keeps within the sometimes narrow depth of field if the camera is kept at the same angle/distance.
After practising this technique I grew more confident and have had virtually zero problems with accurate RF focusing. I learnt to easily focus the Mamiya 7II wide open and at close range for portraits.
When it comes to interior shots with wide angles there is a slightly different approach to focusing which I learnt when I was using the Mamiya 7II / Leica M7 and I am far to tired to accurately describe it (it is five in the morning and I usually get up around nine - nine thirty) but today I actually feel more confident working an RF for any type of shot except a close up portrait and telephoto shots. I got better shots shooting MTB with the Contax G than I think I would have gotten with my 5D at the time.
Ditto. Moving away from 45pt AF is not easy. And I am seeing backfocus with my CV 28/1.9. No problems with the Zeiss 21.
May need to acquire a Noctilux to confirm whether or not it's the M8
zaknat wrote:
Jack's not the only one having a hard time focusing... I miss more shots with this camera than I did with the DMR when I first got it, and that's saying something. Nevertheless, with practice I am sure my keeper percentage will improve and there's no doubt in my mind that the images this camera can produce are worth the effort.
KJ, try focusing on infinity from a tall building. I found that mine could not, which is why I sent it back. Of course, this is only one of the many adjustments. I also found that close up, I could not focus accurately. When it comes back, I will check if that is fixed as well, or if it is something to be learned.
Perhaps a separate thread on focusing tips would be helpful... Heck, I just learned that you need to depress the shutter a tad just to get the rangefinder patch active. Talk about feeling dumb...
Joshua, I've been using the magnifier on the 75 lux but will try leaving it on all the time.
Henrik, when you've rested I'd appreciate if you would explain a bit more about your technique. Your English is excellent, better than some folks who were born here
KJ, getting the Noct is the only way to know for sure
Carsten, since you've already sent yours in you'll probably have the first fully corrected M8 in the world.
, I whole-heartedly agree with you with the rest.....
I think people are just busy playing, or more likely, busy waiting. I don't think there is any plot. I will post some images here for sure when I get mine back from Solms.