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Archive 2006 · •Hands-On• Leica M8

  
 
eronald
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p.12 #1 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


carstenw wrote:
Also, the Leica rangefinder system is more accurate than an SLR at these kinds of distances, not less. Focus-recompose at those distances does not invoke any significant error, and anyway, I don't think a recompose was necessary in this picture.


At medium distance, wide open, focus and recompose is hopeless. At a recent fashion show, I focused on bellies at F1.2, faces were all out of focus. Now that was dumb of me.

Luckily the show was so bad that the pictures were useless anyway. The champagne was good.

But the refresher lesson was useful - and I think it holds or rangefinders too.

Edmund



Nov 12, 2006 at 05:57 AM
jaapv
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p.12 #2 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


I recalibrated my monitor today, and I simply do not see green cast in the sky. Surely this can only be judged accurately on a good print and not on a series of different monitors?


Nov 12, 2006 at 05:58 AM
brainiac
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p.12 #3 · •Hands-On• Leica M8




To my eye the lead guitarist's foot pedal is noticeably sharper than his guitar or face. The lack of sharpness in the face does not appear to be directional, so it probably isn't due to his own movement. The foot pedal suggests that we are not looking at camera shake, and therefore we can surmise that the lead guitarist's face is slightly behind the focal plane. This is a very common problem on any camera when using very wide apertures, and is by no means a problem exclusive to the M8 or rangefinders. However, kidigital suggested that this shot showed the
...Show more

> I just don't think we are seeing any weaknesses displayed in this particular picture.

I have been very specific in pointing out what I see as M8 related weaknesses in the picture. I do this because I have benefitted a lot from the opinions of others on this forum, and so I think it is worth speaking about these weaknesses. The nice thing about having these discussions is that we can all look with our own eyes, make up our own minds, and respect each others opinions even when we don't agree with them.

p.s. anybody know why this text has gone small?



Nov 12, 2006 at 07:15 AM
carstenw
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p.12 #4 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


brainiac wrote:
To my eye the lead guitarist's foot pedal is noticeably sharper than his guitar or face.


Okay, we will have to agree to disagree here. I think the wire coming out of the end of the guitar is as sharp as the pedal, which only looks sharper due to its highlights, I think.

Since the rest of your argument places the blame for this on the rangefinder and elevates the 5D, as an example, there is no point in discussing the rest.

In my view, an SLR with faster frame rate has much better versatility in overcoming this problem because you can constantly adjust focus around the guitarist's (moving) face by concentrating on the ground glass, maintaining composition, and holding down the shutter realease for as long as it will go.

My very first tests with my 5D and M8 were focusing. I was constantly focusing both cameras on something, and zooming in on the screens to verify the focus, and double-checking the results on my computer. I constantly felt that I had done something wrong with the M8, and that I had nailed it with the 5D (where I have experimented with the standard screen, the large raster spot Brightscreen, and settled on the Ee-S), but when I checked the results carefully, I found that the vast majority of the time, I was doing better with the M8. I simply feel insecure with it, but it works really well. Where I really have trouble focusing the 5D (and the electronic built-in system fails here too) is dark situations. I have repeatedly focused very carefully on something, and then had to confirm that I completely missed focus. I will double-check the M8 when it comes back from rangefinder adjustment, but I do think that the argument that the rangefinder is superiour for focusing at normal ranges is not only a technical one, but also a practical conclusion. For telephoto, macro, sports, and other specialty shots, the SLR systems are clearly more suited in general, but for regular shooting, I lean towards the rangefinder.

> Finally, both the 50 Noctilux and 75 Lux are slightly soft wide-open. In fact, if the Noct was used at f/1.0, then it would give the same shutterspeed (okay 1/3-stop less) as the 5D with a f/1.4 lens.

...but with more noise, more softness, and half the likelihood of placing the focal plane where it needs to be. That's not what I call versatility.

Huh, what? I mean the M8 at ISO 640 and f/1.0 vs. the 5D at ISO 1600 at f/1.4. There is no noise penalty there. And the focusing argument we continue to disagree on.


> Again, I find it far more likely that the lens was simply a little long for the shot.

That's why zooms are popular. The M doesn't offer a wide range of zoom options, although the tri-elmars are nice.

Sure, but zooms typically lose several stops in brightness compared to primes, so you lose more than you gain there.

> Finally, with my 5D I found that the focusing on the off-center points was error-prone and difficult to verify, so (before I switched to manual lenses), I was strictly using the center one, which was faster, more accurate and worked better in dim situations.

Look at all those options. That's versatility. I favour manual focus in low light but to each, his own. The M doesn't offer auto-focus, so it lacks that kind of versatility too.

You can call it options if you like. I was speaking of a failing technology, negating the majority of those options, leaving just the equivalent of the rangefinder.

p.s. anybody know why this text has gone small?

Because you are wrong :)



Nov 12, 2006 at 08:35 AM
brainiac
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p.12 #5 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


>>p.s. anybody know why this text has gone small?
>Because you are wrong :)


Wow! I've been here a year and a half and that's the first time that's happened. I knew I was good... ;-)



Nov 12, 2006 at 08:47 AM
braindeadmac
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p.12 #6 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


brainiac wrote:
you really need to sort out your monitor. I am using a bog standard old G4 Apple powerbook and the streaks and noise are glaringly clear. If I didn't know you were for real, and respect your views and contributions to this great forum, I would worry that you were a Leica astroturfer! I am seeing green/red blotches on the wall between the two guitars. Many of the blotches are as big as the guitar knobs. They spoil the graduation of tone from the highlight upwards to the darkness. I would estimate that it is about the same level of
...Show more

I think you're going mad, I don't see it on my Calibrated 21" Apple display or on my calibrated PB G4 display....although my kids use the G4 sometimes and there is some kind of funky stuff....I do see these two swirly things up top which look like they might be reflections or ghosting (but could be real stage lighting artifacts). These aren't "chroma" noise.



Nov 12, 2006 at 09:08 AM
brainiac
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p.12 #7 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


>>...but with more noise, more softness, and half the likelihood of placing the focal plane where it needs to be. That's not what I call versatility.

> Huh, what? I mean the M8 at ISO 640 and f/1.0 vs. the 5D at ISO 1600 at f/1.4. There is no noise penalty there.


OK - I'll admit, I was being generous to the M8. In the following two pictures you can see that the 5D at 3200 outperforms the M8 at 1250 in both noise and actual data resolved by quite a margin:

5D 3200 iso:
http://luminous-landscape.com/images-59/5d-3200.jpg

M8 1250 iso:
http://luminous-landscape.com/images-59/m8-1250.jpg

To judge resolving power, look at the 'a' in 'VIA Rail Canada', and you will see that a lower case 'a' is just about legible, whereas the M8 has simply turned it into a mush. Equally, how many dots are there on the tail of the '4' in the 'Ottawa' line. Moire appears to be damaging resolution of realistic detail on the M8 too: look at the 'ana' of 'VIA Rail Canada' to see coloured fringing due to the lack of an AA filter. Moire doesn't only hurt fabrics, it can hurt resolution of all fine detail.

Earlier in this thread I said that in the band shot the M8 noise at 640 was as distracting as 5D noise at 3200. That's more than 2 stops. I don't have an M8 with which to make this comparison, I based it on all of the examples of M8 images that I have seen, and on the chroma noise half way between the two guitars. Maybe someone who owns both cameras can show us some tests to find out at what iso's the two cameras match on noise and resolution of detail.

Kurt, it would be great if you could post 100% crops of the lead guitarist's face, guitar and foot pedal, and also of the area between the 2 guitars. You probably have better things to do, but if you do have a moment it would be of great interest to me.

> Sure, but zooms typically lose several stops in brightness compared to primes, so you lose more than you gain there.

Bearing in mind the two stop noise deficit, then a Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS will compete well with a Summicron 75 FOR THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION. It also has 3 stops image stabilisation, which definitely helps with camera shake, if not subject motion.



Nov 12, 2006 at 09:38 AM
braindeadmac
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p.12 #8 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


brainiac wrote:
2) matching the very narrow focal plane of a wide aperture lens with the subject is hard. You have failed to do that in this case. The best way to achieve crispness in this kind of shot, in my experience, is to constantly seek focus with the manual focus ring while holding down the shutter release. Digital makes this method affordable, and statistically the shorter the frame interval, the more shots you will get where crispness and a good moment collide. The M8's slower frame rate means that you are significantly less likely to get that crisp magic moment.


As one of the hundreds of people here who've been shooting events with manual focus for decades before AF was even a viable option, I have to say I disagree with your generalization about the 'machine gun' shooting approach. This "machine gun" approach to photography of firing away hundreds of frames is mostly unnecessary. My experience with using AF has been quite the opposite of what you are suggesting, with the possible exception of birds in flight with 400mm+ tele lenses. I get more "keepers" with my 180/2 or 280/2.8 at sports events than I did with my Canon 300/4 IS or 300/2.8 IS. I've spent many hours working with the AF on professional Nikkors and Canons, and still don't find AF vastly superior to MF (although I did find Canon AF superior to Nikon, at the cost of worse metering and TTL-flash, but I digress). What is interesting is the divergence---I admit I'm much more likely to get horribly out of focus shots with MF as opposed to "just missed it shots" like the band photo above. Now if I were working for news media work, where absolute critical focus wasn't necessarily the issue (but getting the shot is), the machine gun approach might work for me.

One of the great things about the previous M cameras (I don't know about the M8) is the very short delay between shutter press and shutter firing. Also, since their is no reflex mirror, you get to see everything (except the DOF "estimate" of stopping down). How do you capture the "decisive moment" when you've got your finger holding down the shutter release and the mirror is spending 1/4 of it's time slapping away before you? I always found it more helpful to focus and anticipate actions and expressions than to fire randomly, even when I had a camera capable of 10 fps.



Nov 12, 2006 at 09:40 AM
brainiac
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p.12 #9 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


Now that shot is fantastic. I stand corrected.

Did you apply NR?



Nov 12, 2006 at 09:54 AM
brainiac
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p.12 #10 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


This "machine gun" approach to photography of firing away hundreds of frames is mostly unnecessary.

I agree: I use it only when shooting moving subjects, like people, in low light, at very wide apertures. But in that specific situation it can make the difference between getting a shot with crisp eyes and not doing so. Here are a couple of examples from Friday night:

http://braine.com/20061111_033211.jpg

http://braine.com/20061111_010413.jpg

http://braine.com/20061111_010736.jpg

All three of these shots are the best examples from sequences of 5-10 pictures shot in a couple of seconds while continuously adjusting the focus ring, (and at 3200 iso in very low light). In none of these cases was the initial photograph the best focussed one, but that is to be expected.

BTW - I should point out that these images have not been adjusted in any way. They have only been downsized using the djpeg -scale command in the ijg jpeg software. So this is how they come out of the camera.

Edited by brainiac on Nov 12, 2006 at 06:02 PM GMT



Nov 12, 2006 at 10:55 AM
AGeoJO
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p.12 #11 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


So, both shots were taken with an M8 then ?


Nov 12, 2006 at 10:59 AM
robsteve
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p.12 #12 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


rgallie wrote:
Victor, OK with me. I think we are using different terms to describe the same thing. The longer wave lengths are focusing at a different point to make the image fuzzy. An APO is not going to be an APO anymore!

I never really thought about it before, but it goes both ways. When you are intentionally taking an infrared photo - if your filter allows too much visible light through, it will result in a less sharp image. I have to pay some more atention to the cut off points of my infrared filters.

Rodney



Rodney:

Most of Leica's APO lenses are APO into the infrared range.



Nov 12, 2006 at 11:28 AM
brainiac
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p.12 #13 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


> The billboard above is a classic sign of who is resolving better detail and clearly that is the M8 over the 5d.

Guy - are you talking about the train display-board images that I posted above, and which come from the luminous-landscape review? If you are, I really have to question the idea that the M8 'slamdunks' the 5D. This test suggests the reverse. Remember, this is a 5D at 3200 with undisclosed (?) lens versus the M8 at 1250. hardly a fair test, you might think, and yet, if you look at the following enlargements of those samples, in pictorial information delivered, the 5D is a considerably ahead:

5D sampled up 1.6x bicubic:
http://braine.com/5d-3200x1.6bicubic.jpg

M8 sampled up 2x nearest neighbour (sharpest conservative method):
http://braine.com/m8-1250x2nn.jpg

M8 sampled up 2x bicubic (to avoid confusion):
http://braine.com/m8-1250x2bicubic.jpg

If you look at the 'A' in 'VIA Rail Canada' the 5D has resolved the counter (hole) whereas the M8 has not. Equally, as I pointed out before, the tail of the '4' in '46 Ottawa' resolves two dots in the 5D image, not in the M8 one. The apparent sharpness of pixels in the M8 shot is not the same thing as actual resolution of pictorial information. Moire or interference patterns are the reason why some of the dots in the letter shapes are resolved dramatically brighter than others, when the 5D shows that they are all in fact about the same brightness. Colour fringing and artefacts are visible all over the text in the M8 shot, and it is important not to mistake artefacts for resolution.

It should also be noted that the 5D image contains noticeable flair, which is hurting contrast. I couldn't find it in the article and I am curious which lens was used. I would guess that with a competitive lens like a Leica R or a Zeiss, the 5D might perform even better.



Nov 12, 2006 at 12:16 PM
brainiac
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p.12 #14 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


These aren't "chroma" noise.

Well here's a massive exaggeration so that you can see where I am talking about:
http://braine.com/afs2al.jpg

I would say that it would be noticeable in a print, and distracting. I would expect it at 3200 but not at 640. It is looks worse than most 400 iso film grain pushed 2/3.

BTW Jeff, just had a look at your landscape galleries. Fantastic - really enjoyed them.



Nov 12, 2006 at 12:39 PM
braindeadmac
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p.12 #15 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


Thanks for the compliment. Not examples of the need for speed, though .

I think it's pretty hard to make judgments about chroma noise on those jpegs, they are downsampled pretty significantly, thus blowing it up won't help much. I find my printers tend to smooth that sort of noise out a bit, as well (Epson 4800 and 7800). I don't think at ISO 640 most are going to find that noise bothersome.

I do agree that the 5D has significantly better performance from ISO 800 and beyond, and I'm actually a bit disappointed (but not surprised) by the Leica's high ISO performance. On the other hand, I never shoot beyond 800 much anymore, even with my M.

On the other hand, for my landscape work, one of the problems I occasionally have is that ISO 100 is too fast and find myself wishing the DMR had an ISO 25....



Nov 12, 2006 at 01:46 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.12 #16 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


Guy Mancuso wrote:
As it stands today having had the 5d, DMR and the M8. The M8 just about slam dunks everyone when it comes to shapness and detail. So please the MPX stuff is really a marketing tag. the DMR was better at detail than the 1dsMKII ( see the DMR thread, although data is there the images are not). What I am saying is don't underestimate the M lenses they will really wipe anyone when it comes to sharpness, The R side is very close but the M does have the edge. The billboard above is a classic sign of
...Show more

Great you convinced yourself, Guy



Nov 12, 2006 at 02:06 PM
t_streng
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p.12 #17 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


sorry guys, but this gets into a "my xxx is bigger "-discussion
and there are other things than noise beyond 400 iso.
I allready wrote in the grd thread, I fell like noise-race seems to overtake the Megapixel-race.
cheers, tom (not even owning a M8 (yet) but allready talking about it)





Nov 12, 2006 at 02:49 PM
brainiac
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p.12 #18 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


this gets into a "my xxx is bigger "-discussion

Fellas relax, it needn't be a mine's bigger than yours discussion at all.

More than a year ago I switched to canon, unemotionally, as a professional, because i saw, first online, and then in my own tests, better results than i was getting with my current gear. The reason I'm in this discussion now is that I want to learn about the M8 from people actually using it. That shouldn't mean that I can't discuss its shortcomings as I see them. I hope that such discussions will benefit other photographers/forum members too.

As a professional party and wedding photographer who cares about image quality, i want to keep abreast of what's being achieved by camera manufacturers. This is an objective discussion of the pros and cons of a particular camera and it's performance. Nobody blames anyone for using the gear he likes.

Equally, it's important that we can continue doing what so many of you have done best in this forum, which is share experience and help each other by contributing and analysing results.

Andi, Guy is entitled to his opinion. Let's stick to facts and real examples of what these cameras can do.

Guy, I would be really interested in a fair comparison of M8 and 5D at say 160 and 320 iso. Obviously the M8 often carries a lens advantage so the 5D should be wearing your best equivalent R lenses. Maybe you could borrow a 5D. You are one of the people most curious about camera performance that I have ever come across, which has been an inspiration to me and changed my photography, so I know that you would do a good test. I would love to see more of other M8 users results too. But let me say this: if I think the camera has failed in some way, I don't think we should avoid discussing that, even though the 5k price may make such discussions uncomfortable. I am trying to work out whether I need an M8. Some of us are not as brave as the pioneers, but that doesn't mean we can't offer objective appraisal of the results that the pioneers are kindly sharing.

Keep the pictures coming guys... :)



Nov 12, 2006 at 03:21 PM
open81
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p.12 #19 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


Well said, brainiac.


Nov 12, 2006 at 03:25 PM
bill vann
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p.12 #20 · •Hands-On• Leica M8


Robsteve wrote

"Most of Leica's APO lenses are APO into the infrared range"

to my understanding, and my grad work was in physics your statement is not likely correct.

for one thing if it were true the sharpness issue being thrown about would not occur with apo lenses and this has not been the case.

the delta in plane of focus for visible and IR wavelengths cannot be over come optically to provide simultaneous accurate focus of both.

where did you get this info? in my quick research all Leica claims is accuracy in the three primaries, i'd be interested to be enlightened.

bill



Nov 12, 2006 at 03:41 PM
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