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Archive 2006 · Legal question - selling prints from event

  
 
Forrest Egan
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p.2 #1 · Legal question - selling prints from event


I'm with Nill here...keep digging.

Just because you weren't asked to leave doesn't give you the right to sell photos from the event. Since there were no offical credentials, at the time they may not have realized you weren't one of the official photogs...or they may have assumed you were a friend/family member of one of the participants and were mostly taking pictures of them.

And giving them away won't win you any friends with the event organizers or fellow photogs that will cover the event in future years. Putting up a portfolio with a few web-size images is one thing...putting up all the full-size images, so prints can be made for free, is another thing.

Most organized events typically have official photographers, as this event did. Just because they didn't hand out credentials and have photogs sign waivers doesn't give you the right to start selling photos. The organization has no idea how many images you may have sold (regardless if it's 2 or 200...you're still taking business away from the official photogs).

No one here will stop you from doing what you're doing...all we can do is offer advice, which you came here in search of. You told us what was going on and we gave you advice. If you don't like the advice, feel free to ignore it.

Take Nill's advice:

Why not just say "sure, no problem, and please keep me in mind for next time?"


My $0.02



Aug 21, 2006 at 03:10 PM
tcorzett
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p.2 #2 · Legal question - selling prints from event


ElysiumSA wrote:
I was under the impression that you don't need model releases to sell "art prints" of people who don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy (such as an athlete at a public event on public fields). I wouldn't sell the images for commercial reasons without a release.


Selling prints to the public is COMMERCIAL usage, and requires releases. The event organizers would have these releases (as participation = permission), but you don't. Basically, you can not make money off of someone's likeness for any non-editorial usage (news). Selling the images to a newspaper, magazine, etc. as documentation of the event is EDITORIAL and does not require releases (outside of the whole "reasonable expectation of privacy" thing).

Maybe people can "donate" to me, because I'm a nice guy, after they download their free images.

Oh yeah, this is something that will get you in BIG trouble VERY fast. Not a good idea, especially if you ever want to shoot an event in again.

-Todd...



Aug 21, 2006 at 03:12 PM
ElysiumSA
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p.2 #3 · Legal question - selling prints from event


tcorzett wrote:
Selling prints to the public is COMMERCIAL usage, and requires releases. The event organizers would have these releases (as participation = permission), but you don't. Basically, you can not make money off of someone's likeness for any non-editorial usage (basically news). Selling the images to a newspaper, magazine, etc. as documentation of the event is EDITORIAL and does not require releases (the whole "reasonable expectation of privacy" thing).


What about the Philip-Lorca diCorcia lawsuit? He took a picture of a guy on the street without his knowledge, sold prints, put it in his photo book which he sold, and then got sued by the guy who didn't want his likeness sold, and the photographer won, because the prints are "art" and not "commerce."

""A judge has dismissed an Orthodox Jew's lawsuit, finding that a photograph taken of him on a street and sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars is art - not commerce - and therefore is protected by the First Amendment, even though his religion forbids such images.""


No one here will stop you from doing what you're doing...all we can do is offer advice, which you came here in search of. You told us what was going on and we gave you advice. If you don't like the advice, feel free to ignore it.


Let's all note that I have not done anything yet. I came here for discussion and that is what this is.



Aug 21, 2006 at 03:18 PM
cecilc
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p.2 #4 · Legal question - selling prints from event


Wow ....
Holy can-of-worms, Batman ..... (oof !) (blam !) (splat !)

ElysiumSA wrote:
I'm wondering if he can really tell me I'm not allowed to sell prints.


Yes, they can ... and if you do I can see a "Cease & Desist" order in your future.

ElysiumSA wrote:
I mean, as far as I could tell there wasn't anything on the website informing me of selling restrictions, they clearly saw me and my camera (he stated this) and didn't ask me to leave, or to stop taking pictures, or inform me that if I kept taking pictures I wouldn't be able to sell them, there were no press passes handed out to anyone (even the "hired volunteer" photographers) or photography waivers signed (like I have signed at many ultimate events - this event was not run by the UPA however).


Totally irrelevant to your question .... you're now talking ethics and morals when your question was about the legality of selling prints ... don't try justifying by pleading ignorance or "nobody told me". That usually doesn't work after about age 10 or so ....

ElysiumSA wrote:
I didn't even go to the event so I could sell pictures


Then stick with that ....

ElysiumSA wrote:
... because I saw some of the pictures from one of the photographers and decided I could do much better


Again, totally not material to the question ...

ElysiumSA wrote:
Assuming I'm not allowed to sell them, I'm thinking I'll just open up access to the orginals to everyone to just download and print themselves for free. No money in my pocket but at least people get to enjoy some nice prints. Maybe people can "donate" to me, because I'm a nice guy, after they download their free images.


Man, you really need to ask yourself, "Hey, myself, do I EVER want to work for/with these people again ?! Do I EVER want them to take me to be a serious, professional photographer ?!" If you answer NO to these questions, then ignore the legalities and the moralities and try to make as much money as you can from it or give away all of your "better" photographs and impact the "official" photographer's bottom line and really piss off the organizers so that next time, not only are you NOT the official photographer, but they totally ban you from any other events ....

ElysiumSA wrote:
...because I'm a nice guy...


.... Hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ..... this sounds like a learning experience for you .... and you've got much more experienced people here giving you rock solid advice (not that I think I fit into that category, but I know the other names that have responded).

A word to the wise .....

Edited by cecilc on Aug 21, 2006 at 03:59 PM GMT



Aug 21, 2006 at 03:49 PM
ElysiumSA
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p.2 #5 · Legal question - selling prints from event


ElysiumSA wrote:
I'm wondering if he can really tell me I'm not allowed to sell prints.


Yes, they can ... and if you do I can see a "Cease & Desist" order in your future.


Thank you for actually answering the question.


Totally irrelevant to your question .... you're now talking ethics and morals when your question was about the legality of selling prints ... don't try justifying by pleading ignorance or "nobody told me". That usually doesn't work after about age 10 or so ....


This was only included because there might have been some legal issue with it, such as a company that doesn't enforce it's trademark losing it. They didn't inform me until after the event, I don't have a "photography laws" book sitting in my lap, so I just included everything that might have some bearing. It has nothing to do with ethics and morals.


Again, totally not material to the question ...


Also totally immaterial to your rebuttal, yet you felt like including it anyway.

The nice guy thing was a joke. I'm not a nice guy.


Edited by ElysiumSA on Aug 21, 2006 at 04:04 PM GMT



Aug 21, 2006 at 03:56 PM
cecilc
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p.2 #6 · Legal question - selling prints from event


ElysiumSA wrote:
I'm not a nice guy.


Sadly, I'm actually beginning to believe that ....



Aug 21, 2006 at 04:04 PM
T.K.
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p.2 #7 · Legal question - selling prints from event


ElysiumSA wrote:
The nice guy thing was a joke. I'm not a nice guy.


HEY.... Im the MEAN guy round these parts! BACK OFF!



Aug 21, 2006 at 05:12 PM
Scott Sewell
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p.2 #8 · Legal question - selling prints from event


ElysiumSA wrote:
Let's open it, I've got plenty of time.


Is it just me, or does this kind of comment--along with others by the OP in this thread--give the impression that no matter what is suggested or who suggests it, it's like talking to a brick wall.



Aug 21, 2006 at 06:31 PM
ElysiumSA
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p.2 #9 · Legal question - selling prints from event


Yes, clearly the fact that I am open to continued discussion on a variety of topics suggests that you are talking to a brick wall, you nailed me there.


Aug 21, 2006 at 06:32 PM
tcorzett
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p.2 #10 · Legal question - selling prints from event


ElysiumSA wrote:
What about the Philip-Lorca diCorcia lawsuit? He took a picture of a guy on the street without his knowledge, sold prints, put it in his photo book which he sold, and then got sued by the guy who didn't want his likeness sold, and the photographer won, because the prints are "art" and not "commerce."

""A judge has dismissed an Orthodox Jew's lawsuit, finding that a photograph taken of him on a street and sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars is art - not commerce - and therefore is protected by the First Amendment, even though his religion forbids
...Show more

I think you’d have a VERY hard time convincing a judge that ALL of the prints that you were selling were “art”. IMO, the ONLY reason you’d be selling most of the images would be because of the people who are depicted in the photo... and therefore making money off of someone’s likeness. This is an interesting case though... it does bring-up some good legal precedence... then again; I don’t have the pockets to fight to prove it in court the next time. But, regardless of what a court would decide... the league can place restrictions on you, regardless if it is/was legal to sell the images.

--------------------------

Ok, but now step-out of what you can legally do or not, and ask yourself a question. Do you ever want to photograph another NEUA or similar ultimate game again?

If your answer to that question is “Yes”, then you may want to tread lightly with the league. If they have requested that you not sell the images (if they legally can, or not) then you probably shouldn’t. The leagues/teams/etc. can keep you out of future events... and if you want your business to be related to ultimate this could be a deal breaker. All you’d need is one of the photographers (etc.) to tell the league that you are giving away images to spite them, and you’re blacked.

I face this problem every day with my photography. I shoot professional motorsports, and while I may be in the legal right to sell “art”... it doesn’t matter what the Supreme Court says if I can’t get into events in the future because I’ve been blacklisted (look-up a case a few years ago about a Dallas Cowboys photographer who sued, won, and was then never allowed to shoot another game). Not everything is about what you legally can, or can’t do... but what the repercussions may be.

-Todd...


Edit: Reading-up on the court case a little (http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/3dseries/2006/2006_50171.htm) different states appear to have different policies on what "art" is... If you actually wanted to take it that far, it would be worth speaking to a lawyer in your area that knows the laws better than I (or most of the others here).



Aug 21, 2006 at 07:08 PM
Nill Toulme
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p.2 #11 · Legal question - selling prints from event


There's even more to it than that. It's not just whether *he* ever wants to shoot another league game; his behavior here could easily have ramifications for other photogs.

"... Anyway, so I show up on thursday morning and start shooting. There is plenty of staff on hand, including the tournament director, that sees me and says nothing. ..."

Cause that director to regret having said nothing, and next time it will probably be different.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net



Aug 21, 2006 at 07:20 PM
Carl Auer
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p.2 #12 · Legal question - selling prints from event


Ok. I have had most of the day to think about this.

First of all, going to the link of the event organizers you posted, there is a tab for media and press. Press of course would me newspapers and television, maybe editorial magazines, media would really be classified as photographers of all sort, but that is not the point. Right on their main page there is a media and press link so this is the first place you should have gone. Period. Clicking on that you get a link to the contacts which would take you to the media director. I do not care if the field or park is public property, it is owned by someone, in this case, most likely the city or state. While most days photography is unrestricted, when an event is held, the space is reserved and paid for by the event organizers. So while this is a public place, it is, in essence, a private event, even if it is open to the public to come and watch, it is still considered a private event because the event organizers are paying to use the space. So, this private event is something that you would need to get permission to photograph. After all, you are not photographing the park now, you are photographing the athletes competing in the park in a organized sanctioned event. Contacting the media director early on to find out about photographing the event is the correct way to do this. Now he may say, sure, no problem, we encourage fans to shoot, but he might also say, well you can shoot, but what are the images going to be used for? If you say well you will post some on your website for others to view, he will probably want to see that website. If he thinks you are shooting for sales, if they have not contracted with an event photographer(s) then he may invite you to bid on the event or again, tell you, that you can shoot, but please, do not sell or give away the photos. This is the first place to always start before you put your foot in your mouth. I have shot plenty of events that official event photographers have been at. Either for practice or under contract. When someone asks me to buy one beyond my stated contract I tell them sorry, but event photos can only be obtained through the official event photographer. On very rare occasions when I get a shot that someone really wants to buy, period, I will have to verify with the organization and the official photographer that it is ok, and usually a % of the sale will go to the organization.

So, you are not offering your shots for sale, but if someone wants to buy one, great? Wrong. The organization does not have to have on their website or at the event photography rules posted. But just because they are not posted does not mean that there are not rules. You need to find out for sure, even if it is a small event. Contacting the media director or even one of the photographers when you get there if it is ok to shoot is a good thing to do, but if you are planning on selling the photos, even if it is just one or two, you need to be up front about that. You have absolutely no idea what these guys contracts are. As far as the other photographers knew you could have been a relative of one of the players or a student in a photography class or a newspaper shooter. By looking at the fact that there were three different shooters listed, they probably do not all work together and probably know each other in passing, so seeing another shooter may not have bothered them at the time. In fact, them not saying anything is exactly what they should have done. They need to concentrate on shooting the event and not chasing people away. That is what media directors are there to do.

You have no idea what these photographers had to do to get these contracts. There are many times bidding wars to get contracts, and some of these guys may have been talking to the media department for months trying to secure the contract. Then to have someone just show up and shoot then offer the photos for sale with no consideration to other shooters and their businesses is unethical and unprofessional. If you feel that your photos are better, the second you knew the event was going to take place, you should have been in contact with them. They hired three photographers, if you were good enough and talk to them, maybe you would have been the 4th or one of the three.

If you do sell or give away photos and either the photographers or the media directer finds out about it, I would not be surprised at all if next year if you are denied entry with your camera even if you take the correct steps. In fact, if these guys had to pay a vendor fee to participate, you may even be billed, even if you are giving photos away.

Yes, the media director had every right to contact you and tell you not to sell. I would expect you will get further emails from them if you offer them up for free too.

You have got to realize that this is a business. 90% of event photography is paperwork and negotiating and 10% is actual photography. If someone is invested in doing this for a living and someone comes along and tries to circumvent the rules for their benefit, you can be guaranteed that the ones that followed the rules are going to do what they legally can to stop you from taking away from their business.

The number one rule in event photography for all photographers. If you show up, expecting to take shots and their is a contracted photographer already their, either ok it with them to shoot or put the camera away.



Aug 21, 2006 at 07:32 PM
burt_g
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p.2 #13 · Legal question - selling prints from event


hey all,

i've looked at this site before, but never have i actually seen a message board where i am one of the topics of conversation! so i had to officially register and join the thread.

i was the official photog at WJUC, the event ElysiumSA is talking about, and i'm also the guy who lent him the 400 lens. i was shooting the event the entire week and had been talking to other photogs who were covering the event (volunteer, press, and amateur), and i never had any trouble with anyone--including ElysiumSA. i was happy to lend him my 400 for a while when i wasn't using it b/c he seemed to know what he was doing, and i was curious to see what images he'd get with it. at no point during our conversations did i feel like he wanted to cut into my business, and he made no effort to promote his site to players or families at the event. i thought that was very professional of him, as it would have been quite easy for him to hand out business cards and undercut my sales right there.

as i read through all the posts here, it seems like the fundamental disagreement isn't between me and him, but rather between ElysiumSA and the media director of the tourney. however, his way of making a point to the media director--giving photos away free to participants--would actually hurt me more than the media guy, since i'm the guy who ultimately stands to lose business. i have no problem with the two of them hashing things out however they want, but if my sales are a casualty of other parties' disagreement, then that's frustrating.



Aug 21, 2006 at 08:28 PM
cracejy
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p.2 #14 · Legal question - selling prints from event


Burt..welcome to FM!

Wow...you sure are handling this better than I would!



Aug 21, 2006 at 09:16 PM
Carl Auer
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p.2 #15 · Legal question - selling prints from event


Thanks for joining the conversation Burt and welcome to FM.


Aug 21, 2006 at 09:29 PM
Scott Sewell
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p.2 #16 · Legal question - selling prints from event


Welcome to FM, Burt and great job on the first post!

Hopefully you'll hang around and participate beyond just this thread.



Aug 21, 2006 at 10:11 PM
thomasrizzo
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p.2 #17 · Legal question - selling prints from event


After the thoughtful and respectful replies by Carl, Nil, and tcorzett and with the emergence of Burt, I am wondering what ElysiumSA will do next. Will he bow out gracefully, stating that "after careful consideration of the views and information submitted by some of FM's finest, I have decided to follow this sage advice." Or, does he have something more sinister to do with his prized photos and website?

By the way, ElysiumSA I think your photos are great. I'm wondering if you weren't miffed that you didn't get the gig in the first place, and went there to show them up If it were me, I'd think about playing it straight with the event organisers this year, and try to get in legitimately next year. But that's what everybody else here is saying...

Edited by thomasrizzo on Aug 21, 2006 at 10:37 PM GMT



Aug 21, 2006 at 11:13 PM
phanophish
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p.2 #18 · Legal question - selling prints from event


How about responding and getting hooked up for next year as one of the volunteer photogs or maybe find a way to work out a deal with the promoter to sell on site next year. Shop your images around for editorial use within the disc community and call it a fun day playing with a very nice chunk of glass.

Edited by phanophish on Aug 22, 2006 at 09:46 AM GMT



Aug 21, 2006 at 11:23 PM
Mark Peters
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p.2 #19 · Legal question - selling prints from event


If you really have a legal question, perhaps you should ask an attorney..........


Aug 22, 2006 at 12:18 AM
phanophish
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p.2 #20 · Legal question - selling prints from event


There has been a ton of great advice in this thread, but it raised a question in my head. How does the sales of party/event pics mesh up with model releases. I'd venture a guess that most of these type events do not include a disclaimer for the participants that they are giving authorization for the use of their likeness for commercial use. SO, does the photographer shooting the kids soccer game, or the prom or whatever corporate event and selling "party pics" doing so illegally? Having an "agreement" with the promoter does not effect your legal relationship with the subject at all & I'd bet a lot of money people doing party pics do not get model releases from all of their subjects. Comments?


Aug 22, 2006 at 10:54 AM
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