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Archive 2006 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Duncan Staples
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p.22 #1 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Thanks for the Contax info Lotus.

May 23, 2006 at 04:17 PM

Andi Dietrich
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p.22 #2 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

gdstaples wrote:
Is there any difference on how backs mount on the AF vs. MF version of the Contax 645? Also, are there differences in lens quality of Contax AF vs. MF lenses? The reason I ask is that on the Hasselblad side there are differences in electronic contacts from H1 to H2 and also the HC lenses are much sharper with better color than the older C/CF T* lenses.

Thanks,
Duncan

How do you know HC lenses are better than the CF lenses? Any facts?

May 23, 2006 at 04:20 PM

ajmichael
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p.22 #3 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

As someone still trying to decide whether to go for a P25 or P30 (if at all) there's an interesting recent post on the Phase One forum referring to an article at DALSA - http://217.33.241.242/download/Firstsight%20Vision/Tech%20Tips/Pixel-Pitch-vs-Lenses.pdf which throws some light (sorry!) on the interaction between lenses and sensor pitch. It may also explain why the P25 apparently out-performed the P30 in the recent LL test. The article basically says that unless your lens resolving power is up the pixel pitch of the sensor, you'll actually get better results with a sensor of greater pitch and smaller number of pixels. Something for Canon to watch, perhaps? :-)

Andy

May 24, 2006 at 04:27 AM

Lotusm50
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p.22 #4 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Maybe that explains why I hear reports of people saying that their 12.8 mp 5D has better image quality than their 16 mp 1Ds mkII.

May 24, 2006 at 05:42 AM

shirozina
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p.22 #5 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotusm50 wrote:
Maybe that explains why I hear reports of people saying that their 12.8 mp 5D has better image quality than their 16 mp 1Ds mkII.
On casual inspection with some images this may be so due to the fact that the 5D has a weaker AA filter and an A/D processor that embeds a different tonal response into the RAW images.On closer critical inspection however 5D RAW images of subject matter with fine detail shot with good lenses will exhibit colour aliasing artefacts and nasty 'jaggies' on fine lines at 45deg to the sensor. This limits their usfulness for adjustment in post processing with regards to sharpening, tonal adjustment and increased interpolation (up-ressing).

May 24, 2006 at 07:47 AM

Lotusm50
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p.22 #6 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

So both the 5D and 1Ds mkII suck. OK, I'll buy that.

So when do we get a product that does it right? Where are the real alternatives?? Is the only possible alternative a $30,000 digital back? Is anyone else even trying?

May 24, 2006 at 09:11 AM

shirozina
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p.22 #7 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Lotusm50 wrote:
So both the 5D and 1Ds mkII suck. OK, I'll buy that.
On the contrary - both are very good cameras capable of images of a very high order. The 5D in particular is asthonishingly good in relation to it's price. Without actualy owning and using both DSLR's and med format backs it's quite easy to get things out of perspective - I own a 5D and a Sinar 22mp back - the Sinar has 2x the MP but it is no where near 2x the image quality - it needs big enlargments to show the difference and most (if not all) of the time it's lost on the printed page where a lot of commercial work ends up. Sure with big prints on the wall veiwed at close distances we can see differences - just like the differences between 22mp and 5x4 scanned or printed film. I was looking at some large prints shot on 10x8 he other day - compared to that the latest med format backs suck - you can buy that if you want.

May 24, 2006 at 10:03 AM

Duncan Staples
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p.22 #8 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Andi - personal experience. I own 50/80/120/150/250 CFT* lenses and often rent 50/80/150 and 50-110 zoom lenses on the HC for H1D. The HC lenses are sharper edge to edge and appear to have been designed more for a digital due to center and edge sharpness issues in addition to better contrast.

Duncan

May 24, 2006 at 10:40 AM

carstenw
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p.22 #9 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Duncan, what about the 180 CF T*? It is meant to be one of the best of the old series, I thought.

May 24, 2006 at 10:59 AM

Duncan Staples
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p.22 #10 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I don't have the 180CFT* - sorry.

Duncan

May 24, 2006 at 11:09 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.22 #11 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

shirozina
A 22mp camera has not twice the resolution of a 11mp camera, you would need to have some insane 44mp to double the resolution from the 5D. Of course you still would need lenses which do not limit the sensor resolution as Andy pointed out in his post.

Duncan I would like to see that, not that I would not believe you but just what I saw from the V lenses and the p30 was just so good I would not like to give up its qualities for 5% more sharpness. My experience is still quite limited on this

May 24, 2006 at 11:23 AM

ajmichael
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p.22 #12 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

bathman wrote:
... what I saw from the V lenses and the p30 was just so good I would not like to give up its qualities for 5% more sharpness ...

I did a shoot at the weekend with a borrowed P30 on a 553ELX with the 80mm CFT* against my 1Ds2 with a 50mm f1.4. If I'd had more time I'd have tried some other lens combinations. The main issue I had was the P30 not triggering from the 553ELX, which thanks to the Phase One forum I now know was a dirty PAL pin. Unfortunately this wasted quite a lot of time and was very frustrating as the back only triggered one time in three or four shots. I haven't had the chance to really look through the P30 images, but what I've seen so far is pretty impressive.

Andy

May 25, 2006 at 05:18 AM

shirozina
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p.22 #13 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Andi - 22mp is 2x the image information than 11mp - this may or may not be the same as resolution.

May 25, 2006 at 05:36 AM

EZepeda
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p.22 #14 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

ajmichael wrote:
The main issue I had was the P30 not triggering from the 553ELX, which thanks to the Phase One forum I now know was a dirty PAL pin. Unfortunately this wasted quite a lot of time and was very frustrating as the back only triggered one time in three or four shots. I haven't had the chance to really look through the P30 images, but what I've seen so far is pretty impressive.

Andy

That PAL pin is a PITA. I guess there's an optical sensor in the Phase back, that won't "see" the pin if it's dirty...alcohol and a q-tip seem to work. The other main issue with the older Hassy bodies is the sync cable. Phase charges 50+ bucks for this little sub-mini to PC 6" cord, because your 20K+ back is useless without it, but it doesn't have that long tip that works best with the CFT* lenses. I do get occasional sync errors which is either due to the PAL pin or the sync cord. The cord isn't bad because I plopped my 50 bucks down for another spare and still get the same error. I'm thinking of have Paramount custom make me a long tip to sub-mini cord which they will do for all of 25 bucks. It's not a massive problem, just annoying and somewhat to be expected when pairing a twenty year old body with some of the newest in capture technology.

May 25, 2006 at 06:04 AM

Kit Laughlin
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p.22 #15 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

I welcome advice from all those here.

I have bought a Hasselblad 501c, with the 80/2,8 and 50/3,5. I haven't handled one of these for 20+ years, but the finder's great, and ergonomics are�well, Hasselblad!

I have a Japanese Gardens book project coming up soon (coffee table book), and I am not yet sure that the DMR can provide the needed resolution for the occasional double spread that the publisher requires. This gives rise to a lot of questions, some of which I will post on d64 and this MF thread on FM.

Many of the gardens are small, and in cramped locations. Wides are essential. I have the L15/3,5 and the 19/2,8 for the DMR�but as you know, that crop factor really kills the wide end (21 and 26 roughly). Yes, I can use both of these on the 5D, and I might�but then I was offered the Hassie for a really good price, and I started thinking...

A friend suggested I get the 30 Distagon�although fisheye, he claims that "ImageAlign" straightens the images perfectly, and that the lens is very sharp. The workflow I am planning for these images is capture on film at various exposures, drum scan, bring into PS, and exposure blend or tone map as necessary. That's one way.

Another way'd be to buy the SWC with the 38mm (if memory serves). Again. same workflow, but I have read that this wide is superb optically, and the publishers really want the images to pop.

Or�and this is the question�do you know of any digital back for the 501 that can capture onto cards? When I go to Japan, I want to travel with as small as kit as possible. The DMR and primes (and I have all of them from 15�180) is heavy! However, I could still do that if there's no viable alternative. If I could get a digital back for the 501, I could just carry a light meter, battery charger for the back, the lenses, and lots of cards. I have quite a few of each (CF and SD).

Any other suggestions gratefully received (like other websites, good places to get second-hand gear, etc.) gratefully received! regards to all, KL

May 25, 2006 at 11:31 PM

slungu
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p.22 #16 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Kit, as far as I know there is no digital back that is full frame on the Hassy, meening that your wide angle won't be there - as I understood that was a killer request for this assignment. So your only choice would be a scanner...
Regards, Stefan

May 26, 2006 at 01:20 AM

ajmichael
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p.22 #17 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

EZepeda wrote:
That PAL pin is a PITA. I guess there's an optical sensor in the Phase back, that won't "see" the pin if it's dirty...alcohol and a q-tip seem to work. The other main issue with the older Hassy bodies is the sync cable. Phase charges 50+ bucks for this little sub-mini to PC 6" cord, because your 20K+ back is useless without it, but it doesn't have that long tip that works best with the CFT* lenses. I do get occasional sync errors which is either due to the PAL pin or the sync cord. The cord isn't bad because...Show more →

I'm unconvinced about the way in which Phase have implemented the PAL detection and think that it's the root cause of the sync problem. The "official" method of cleaning the pin is with a pan scourer(!) with instructions that it should be left bright and shiny after cleaning. I can think of several ways of detecting the movement of a piece of metal that don't require it to be optically perfect!

Andy

May 26, 2006 at 08:53 AM

marcwilson
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p.22 #18 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

Kit,
Pretty much all the digital backs will fit on your hasselblad but none of them will give you comlete full frame..though some of course will come much closer than others..but at such a cost!
Perhaps for this project shoot on film and scan is best.
As far as lenses are concerned the haselblad 40mm is a wonderful lens and will give you approximately 23mm equivalent (I think).
The 38mm sw wide body / lens is stunning. The images are pin sharp and virtually distortion free and it is also a great camera to use.
As you already have the hasselblad you can almost think of it as a stunning wide angle lens for your camera..just using the same backs.
the only problems with it are the viewfinder but you can use a ground glass focussing screen on the back if you need.
It has its odd points but the image quality is stunning.
If you do look for one avoid the newer ones as the lenses were changed after laws on lead / arsenic in the glass (or something like that) and make sure you get one at the least with the black, not silver, lenses.
If you go to my website (www.marcwilson.co.uk) and look under online portfilios the (ninth) image (square one) of the sand blowing across the beach and blue sky was shot with one.
It would give you that 'pop' you are looking for.
I have not used the 30mm I am afraid so can't comment on that lens.
Hope some of that helps.
Marc

May 26, 2006 at 10:17 AM

marcwilson
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p.22 #19 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

kit,
just sent you a lengthy post but it's not showing up..

May 26, 2006 at 10:34 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.22 #20 · Re: MF digital backs. The dilemma

marc, you have some great photographs on your homepage!

May 26, 2006 at 04:32 PM

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