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Archive 2005 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor

  
 
jdaily
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p.2 #1 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


The economics of FF must have been shaping up before Canon released the EF-S mount. I suspect 1.6x will be around for several generations of bodies.



Sep 10, 2005 at 04:18 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #2 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


Jeff wrote:
Can I quote you on that?


Actually, a Canon rep said it. I wasn't sure it could happen until the 5D was announced. Now I believe it.



BTW, what does TANSTAAFL stand for? I've been trying to figure it out for months, and I give up...


Back in the 1930s in the US (during the Great Depression), some restaurants would advertise "Free Lunch with Purchase of Two Mixed Drinks." Of course, people soon learned the restaurants had merely raised the price of the mixed drinks to cover the cost of the lunch. the lesson: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Every benefit has a cost that must be paid some how, at some time, by somebody. That's true of every decision in photography, from equipment purchases to the choice of ISO to the choice of a shutter speed. There is always a benefit and always a cost.

The best we can do is to understand what the cost actually is and make a good determination of whether the benefit is worth it.


Edited by RDKirk on Sep 11, 2005 at 03:45 AM GMT



Sep 10, 2005 at 04:32 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #3 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


jdaily wrote:
The economics of FF must have been shaping up before Canon released the EF-S mount. I suspect 1.6x will be around for several generations of bodies.


Actually, I get a feeling that Canon has come farther faster than even they though they would. I'll bet they were pleasantly surprised when they first threw together the requirements for the 5D and discovered it was do-able at $3K. I don't think their earlier comments about having a 3-tier structure were disingenuous at the time, but I do think the 5D was not in their scope when those statements were made.



Sep 10, 2005 at 04:36 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #4 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


Venus wrote:
What are they going to do with the thousands of angry 20D users if they dumped all the smaller sensors and only produce FF in future?? Many might jump ship and cross over to Nikon. Hopefully these guys at Canon wouldn't be so impetuous.


Canon makes $150 film cameras. I expect that as long as APS-C can be done with any cost savings over 24x36mm, they will make those cameras for the lowest price points.



Sep 10, 2005 at 04:40 PM
Jeff
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p.2 #5 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


RDKirk wrote:
Canon makes $150 film cameras. I expect that as long an APS-C can be done with any cost savings over 24x36mm, they will make those cameras for the lowest price points.


Exactly.



Sep 10, 2005 at 04:51 PM
djgarcia
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p.2 #6 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


RDKirk, I take it you didn't like Starship Troopers ... I too have been waiting for this one, and Friday. Oh, yeah, and Stranger in a Strange Land.

Now I am starting to wonder at what point are the development improvements going to start shifting from hardware to firmware, and if at some point manufacturers are going to start charging for firmware-based improvements (as opposed to bug fixes).



Sep 10, 2005 at 05:02 PM
alvit
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p.2 #7 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


At this point could be interesting a super FF 36x36 !!!!


Sep 10, 2005 at 05:33 PM
Steve_T90
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p.2 #8 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


jmcfadden wrote:
hehe , where have you been , many are mounting anything But a canon on their 1DsMKII's

J


35mm lenses of various stripes on their 24x36mm Canons, yes. Medium Format lenses, much more rarely -- and that's what would be analogous to using 35mm lenses on ~15x22mm bodies.



Sep 10, 2005 at 07:04 PM
gregau
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p.2 #9 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


SPECULATION : In a year after the 5D release, they'll have another FF body but this time it'll have at least 5fps. In the meantime, Canon will have scooped up a huge wad of cash from early adopters back to FF and then will make even more $$$ selling them the 5D replacement (3D?) which is actually the camera that everyone wants now.

I've always wanted a 'digital' version of the EOS 3 as many on this list have but I don't think the 5D quite cuts it yet. I'll hang out for the next generation.

In the meantime, I think I'll save up and get LASEK done on my eyes. (Costs about the same as a 5D).

Greg



Sep 10, 2005 at 07:18 PM
uz2work
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p.2 #10 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


As others have said, the linked web site is just a part of Canon's marketing.
The 5D is their only new body in close to a year, and there probably won't be any totally new bodies for a while. Canon needs to make an effort to convince people that there is a reason to spend 2 1/2 times more than they would pay for a 20D and to buy the 5D instead.

With regard to the APS sized sensor, I will be shocked if it isn't around for a long time. Canon's profit and loss statement does not depend on how many 1DsII's, 1DII's, or 5D's that it will sell. By sheer volume, the money is made and the competition is at the other end of the market. If Canon and Nikon can make a high quality DSLR now for under $1000, the push will be to make one for under $800. Then it will be to make one for under $600, and then $500, and so on. Even if the cost of producing sensors has and continues to come down, the sensor will continue to be the most expensive part of the camera, and a cropped sensor will always be significantly less expensive than a FF sensor. At the entry DSLR level, saving even a few dollars is what will give Canon a competitive edge, and the cropped sensor is what allows them to do so.

Also, with regard to all of the cheers that Canon is getting for finding a way to make a less expensive FF sensor, I think the progress is not as great as it would appear to some. We have, perhaps as a result of Canon's marketing,
come to believe that Canon has found away to drop the price of a FF camera from $8000 to $3000, and they have, but only a part of that price drop comes from producing a FF sensor less expensively. If Canon had not stripped the 5D of 1-series build quality, AF, and other features, the 5D would be selling for
$5500+. At $5500, compared to an $8000 1DsII with 33% more pixels, the price of the 5D would not be nearly as impressive. I would guess that the truth is that Canon has produced the 5D at its $3200 price by a combination of removing the 1-series features, decreasing its markup, and, to a lesser extent, producing a FF sensor less expensively.
Les



Sep 10, 2005 at 07:44 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #11 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


djgarcia wrote:
RDKirk, I take it you didn't like Starship Troopers .


I've read the novel perhaps 40 times since I was 16. When I was in the military, I kept copies to loan to clueless lieutenants. I even had margin notes in some of them. I started my daughter on Heinlein when she was 12, reading "Have Space Suit--Will Travel" to her as she sat in my lap. She read ST when she was 14, pronouncing it "awesome." She's a freshman in college this semester, but has been participating in a "Roughnecks" online fanfic for the last four years.

So that should tell you what I thought of Verhoeven's abortion. OTOH, the later CGI television series "Roughnecks: Chronicles of the Starship Troopers" started from the movie, but seemed to have been written by people who actually read and respected the novel.



Sep 10, 2005 at 10:20 PM
RDKirk
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p.2 #12 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


At $5500, compared to an $8000 1DsII with 33% more pixels, the price of the 5D would not be nearly as impressive. I would guess that the truth is that Canon has produced the 5D at its $3200 price by a combination of removing the 1-series features, decreasing its markup, and, to a lesser extent, producing a FF sensor less expensively.
Les


Or did they improve the build of the 10D and add the DIGIC II and 24x36mm sensor?



Sep 10, 2005 at 10:22 PM
dan9
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p.2 #13 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


uz2work wrote:
As others have said, the linked web site is just a part of Canon's marketing.
The 5D is their only new body in close to a year, and there probably won't be any totally new bodies for a while.


? Huh ? What about the 1DsMkII, and the RebleXT?

Canon whipped out 4 DSLRs in one year, from the 1DMkII to the 350D. Then they slow the pace down and wait 6 months to announce their next body. That is hardly a year! I think you just got conditioned to the blitzkrieg that the DIGICII introduction brought about.

uz2work wrote:
Canon needs to make an effort to convince people that there is a reason to spend 2 1/2 times more than they would pay for a 20D and to buy the 5D instead.


Concur, and that is what they are doing. Especially for the current 1 and 3 series film body users, Canon is working hard to convince that remnant film group to (1) go digital, (2) stick with Canon when they do, and (3) the 5D is the model that should be considered.

uz2work wrote:
Also, with regard to all of the cheers that Canon is getting for finding a way to make a less expensive FF sensor, I think the progress is not as great as it would appear to some. We have, perhaps as a result of Canon's marketing, come to believe that Canon has found away to drop the price of a FF camera from $8000 to $3000, and they have, but only a part of that price drop comes from producing a FF sensor less expensively. If Canon had not stripped the 5D of 1-series build quality, AF, and other features,
...Show more

Perhaps you are on the right path here but your numbers are skewed a bit:
From the B&H website:
Elan7n + grip: $300 + $70
EOS 3 + PB-E2: $1250 (separately: $875 + $385)
EOS 1V + PB-E2: $1980

Now, the 5D is (from the description) built as well as the EOS 3 (and they have similar shutter and viewfinder specs.) The PB-E2 adds significantly to the cost of these high end film cameras. From looking at these numbers, why would you expect the build/spec improvements in the 1D body to be more than, say, worth around $1000? So a mythical 5D built to a (1V + PB-E2) spec could be expected to be priced in the $4300 range.

My suspicions are that the 5D sensor + AA filter assembly costs less than half that in the 1Ds series (as they were originally costed.)

Dan9






Sep 10, 2005 at 11:22 PM
Pondria
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p.2 #14 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


RDKirk wrote:
The 24x36mm 1-series isn't going to stay that high. You'll see it at $5000 before the end of 2006.


I agree !





Sep 10, 2005 at 11:33 PM
uz2work
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p.2 #15 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


dan9 wrote:
? Huh ? What about the 1DsMkII, and the RebleXT?

Canon whipped out 4 DSLRs in one year, from the 1DMkII to the 350D. Then they slow the pace down and wait 6 months to announce their next body. That is hardly a year! I think you just got conditioned to the blitzkrieg that the DIGICII introduction brought about.


Perhaps you are on the right path here but your numbers are skewed a bit:
From the B&H website:
Elan7n + grip: $300 + $70
EOS 3 + PB-E2: $1250 (separately: $875 + $385)
EOS 1V + PB-E2: $1980

Now, the 5D is (from the description) built as
...Show more

Dan,
I should have said that the 5D was their only current release instead of saying the only one in almost a year, but my point is still valid--that they are going to be hyping their only real new release.

With regard to the cost of including 1-series features, I used the numbers I did because I suspect that Canon is already charging a much higher markup for them in their DSLR's than they are with their film bodies. Actually to arrive at those numbers, I considered the price difference between a 20D and a 1DII and added a couple hundred dollars markup. Still, though, my point is that, if the price of a 5D is only a fraction of that of a 1DsII, part of the reason is being able to make less expensive sensors, but other factors, including lower build quality and lesser feature sets probably play a bigger role in keeping the price down.
Les



Sep 10, 2005 at 11:43 PM
Pondria
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p.2 #16 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


uz2work wrote:
As others have said, the linked web site is just a part of Canon's marketing.
The 5D is their only new body in close to a year, and there probably won't be any totally new bodies for a while. Canon needs to make an effort to convince people that there is a reason to spend 2 1/2 times more than they would pay for a 20D and to buy the 5D instead.

With regard to the APS sized sensor, I will be shocked if it isn't around for a long time. Canon's profit and loss statement does not depend on
...Show more

Les, the street price of the entire 1V body that is pretty much the same as 1D series body including magensium alloy body + 45 points AF + 35 evaulative metering + oh yeah weather seals and the qucik responsiveness is only $2,000. What would be Canon's cost for it ?



Sep 10, 2005 at 11:49 PM
uz2work
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p.2 #17 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


Pondria wrote:
Les, the street price of the entire 1V body that is pretty much the same as 1D series body including magensium alloy body + 45 points AF + 35 evaulative metering + oh yeah weather seals and the qucik responsiveness is only $2,000. What would be Canon's cost for it ?


I'm sure that Canon's cost is much lower than the $2000, but, as I said in my last post, it is clear that Canon marks up the 1 series features more in DSLRs than they do in film bodies. Compare the price of the 20D to that of the 1DII. Only a small fraction of the difference is for the larger sensor.
I'm also sure that the mark up for 1 series features is even bigger on the 1DsII than it is on the 1DII. Therefore, I have every reason to believe that, if they had included 1 series features and build quality on the 5D, the markup would have been somewhere between that on the 1DII and the 1DsII.
Les



Sep 10, 2005 at 11:56 PM
Pondria
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p.2 #18 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


uz2work wrote:
... Therefore, I have every reason to believe that, if they had included 1 series features and build quality on the 5D, the markup would have been somewhere between that on the 1DII and the 1DsII.
Les


Yes, I agree. And that camera would be difficult to distinguish from 1DsMK2.




Sep 11, 2005 at 12:26 AM
slau
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p.2 #19 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


........... Canonians would all be mounting Hasselblad lenses on their 1DsII's, wouldn't they?

Do you mean something like this?

http://www.pbase.com/stephenl/image/33275363.jpg

& like this?

http://www.pbase.com/stephenl/image/40714414.jpg





Sep 11, 2005 at 01:25 AM
Phil Bonner
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p.2 #20 · Canon pushing hard on Full Frame Sensor


I believe there is a manufacturer race for the first affordable FF, whether it be a P&S, semi DSLR like the Sony, or a DSLR in the XT/20D price range. I'd certainly jump for a FF if it was at the 20D price point. It's coming...

On edit, a real good Canon AF wide angle lens would even make me strongly consider upgrading to a dslr between the 5D and 20D price points.



Sep 11, 2005 at 01:30 AM
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