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Archive 2005 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?

  
 
losloslos
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p.2 #1 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Maybe they've taken all these ideas, like my patented auto-crop, multi-crop, crop-zoom, and retro-crop (more than FF)...along with my HDR Bracketing, and HDR Priority, and ISO Priority, and, the GIN button (I prefer Whiskey thanks) and they have divvied it all up into a product roadmap that will give them 10yrs of new cameras.

"Tanaka-san, when is the ISO display scheduled to appear on the EOS 22DN5.1?"

"We have it scheduled after the announcement of the Rebel 426 Hemi., Spring 2007. We will be taking the ISO display off of the 1DMkIV-stoke-9-zed, and calling that the 'Heritage 1D Special'. It will be appreciated by those that like challenges."

"Very good. Tell me again, how we are going to make the Hello Kitty 1DMkV-Dolby with a respectable finish? How will it hold up to Photojournalist use?"

"Well sir, we have doubled our efforts, and partnered with West Coast Choppers (on our previously successful Rebel Jesse 65 c.i.), and we have abandoned our Chococat 1D, so we have put that team on the Kitty-Chan model and the new Paris Hilton 1800 4.0L IS (Gucci)."

"Most excellent."

G.



Aug 23, 2005 at 11:43 AM
smaniscalco
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p.2 #2 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?





Aug 23, 2005 at 11:55 AM
peppue
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p.2 #3 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?





Aug 23, 2005 at 11:57 AM
Andy Dahlem
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p.2 #4 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


smaniscalco wrote:
Ok, if the guy had asked for 16mp, 8fps or weather sealing, I'd say you have a point. If he'd asked for ISO in the viewfinder of a 350XT, I'd say you have a point (though not a particularly strong one).
What he's asking for is a very useful feature that is pretty much universally desired and would cost very little to impliment...and he's asking for it in a $3k plus body! This is not an unreasonable request.


Since switching to a digital camera from film, I am using ISO settings in addition to shutter speed and aperture to get the desired photo. Due to the flexibility of choosing the desired ISO value and the quality of high ISO photos, it became part of the picture taking process. Hence, I feel it should be incorporated into the viewfinders of every digital camera. Otherwise, it could be argued that the shutter speed and aperture could be omitted from viewfinder displays. Hope this statement won’t inspire Canon marketing people to devise a new strategy to get people to upgrade to 1 series bodies by removing this information from non-1 series bodies. ;-)

Andy



Aug 23, 2005 at 12:39 PM
Philippe Arnez
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p.2 #5 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


losloslos - hilarious


pscard wrote:
I find it quite strange that people don't intuitively pick up what their ISO setting is based on aperture/shutter speed for the amount of available light.


agreed!


And jmardy, I like your solution!



Aug 23, 2005 at 01:26 PM
smaniscalco
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p.2 #6 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


pscard wrote:
I find it quite strange that people don't intuitively pick up what their ISO setting is based on aperture/shutter speed for the amount of available light.


So...you just dispense with the light meter entirely I guess?

If I'm off by 2 stops or more, I might notice, but one stop won't generally be apparent to me.
Perhaps I need to get my eyeball based light meter calibrated. Where do you go for that?



Aug 23, 2005 at 01:43 PM
pranic
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p.2 #7 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Has anyone actually written a letter to Canon, or does everyone think Canon is reading this, and other message boards? I've always sort of wondered about that, since I don't know if Canon is reading these types of discussion boards, or whether or not the right people at Canon are hearing the complaints.


Aug 23, 2005 at 01:47 PM
HelmutR
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p.2 #8 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Canon does not read here, because the lack of:

Viewfinder-ISO
and
easy software-MLU has been discussed for years now.......



Aug 23, 2005 at 02:40 PM
gml1
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p.2 #9 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


The ISO is missing from the viewfinder not because of clever(?) marketing but because of clever engineering. And the clever part is that Canon successfully recycled the 20D design and put a FF on it and called it 5D. To use the car analogy – the 5D and the 20D are the equivalents of BMW’s M3 and 330i models. Quite different performance wise but both of them still 3-series cars.
So, one of the features that the 5D inherited from the shared platform is missing ISO in the viewfinder. Another such feature is the 9 point AF system. While OK for the 20D, it is a bit inadequate for 5D’s bigger viewfinder. Seems like a lot of people are OK with it, though.



Aug 23, 2005 at 02:58 PM
uz2work
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p.2 #10 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


gml1 wrote:
The ISO is missing from the viewfinder not because of clever(?) marketing but because of clever engineering. And the clever part is that Canon successfully recycled the 20D design and put a FF on it and called it 5D. To use the car analogy – the 5D and the 20D are the equivalents of BMW’s M3 and 330i models. Quite different performance wise but both of them still 3-series cars.
So, one of the features that the 5D inherited from the shared platform is missing ISO in the viewfinder. Another such feature is the 9 point AF system. While OK
...Show more

As I was thinking about this a bit more, I'm guessing that you are correct in saying that the viewfinder was inherited from the 20D. But marketing still comes into play. Here is what I mean. I'm sure that Canon knows that people would like the ISO in the viewfinder, and I'm sure that Canon is not ignoring them just to ignore them. I'm also sure that there is a ton of planning that goes into the develpment of a DSLR, and that planning involves considerable discussion between the technical and design people, financial people, and marketing people, and the final product involves compromises between the input of all these groups. I'm guessing that Canon's marketing people told them that, for this camera to be successful, it had to be selling somewhere around the $3000 level. I'm guessing that the design people said what they would have liked to be in the camera, and the people who have a handle on costs gave them choices as to what to eliminate in order to stay down at the target cost level. Even though designing a new viewfinder may seem like a small matter to us, I'm guessing that doing so is more expensive than we might think and that doing so would not have been compatible with the target price. While I'm sure that my explanation is simplistic, I'm also confident that the general idea describes how the manufacturer decides what will be in the camera, and the bottom line is still the same--if you want every feature available, you have to spend the money to buy the product (a 1-series) where cost of production is not as much of a factor in its design and where being first rate in every way is the biggest factor.
Les



Aug 23, 2005 at 03:19 PM
tazo
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p.2 #11 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


capitalK wrote:
I have trained myself to reset my Digital Rebel everytime I turn it off. ISO 100, Av with aperture @ F4. Took me a few months to get used to it, but it became a necessity from all the shots I was losing.


this is what i do as well.



Aug 23, 2005 at 03:48 PM
pscard
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p.2 #12 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


smaniscalco wrote:
So...you just dispense with the light meter entirely I guess?


No just learn to triangulate the three settings, sensitivity, aperture and shutter speed. Most people curse the lack of ISO display more for leaving it on ISO 800+ in bright light when they could be comfortabley using 100/200.

I am not advocating dispensing with the features that the camera has given you, but more to using them as a tool instead of a solution.

Learning to "read" light will empower you to capture better images the way you picture them and not they way the camera decides for you (post processing aside).



Aug 23, 2005 at 03:55 PM
rjk55425
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p.2 #13 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Like it or not, its not there. Make it a habit of checking every variable before you shoot and it won't be a problem.


Aug 23, 2005 at 07:06 PM
jen729w
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p.2 #14 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Don't forget, everybody, that "Canon" doesn't design the 20D - a bunch of different engineers sitting round different desks, probably in different offices - *they* design the 20D. One guy does the spec for the LCD display, another does it for the viewfinder display, another QAs the whole lot, someone else pays for it, someone else has the PCB designed by the 3rd party supplier in India... so by the time someone realises that nobody put the ISO display somewhere obvious, it's way too far down the track to change. Software is written. Standards are set. Parts are ordered.

Sometimes it isn't just as simple as "putting in that feature". I work in IT - how much easier my life would be if I could just implement something that someone else forgotten. Oh, how popular I'd be... :-)

Just my tuppence worth.

j.



Aug 23, 2005 at 09:43 PM
John Ferguson
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p.2 #15 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


rjk55425 wrote:
Like it or not, its not there. Make it a habit of checking every variable before you shoot and it won't be a problem.


A good sized segment of the market for this camera will be pros who are buying this camera as a backup to their 1DSMKII or as a full frame camera to augment their 1DMKII cameras. They are used to having the ISO visable in the viewfinder and therefore are in the habit of checking it in the viewfinder while they shoot. At times I change ISO from shot to shot, and don't take my eye off the viewfinder when doing it.

A $3K camera is not an "entry level" camera. I would much rather Canon had spent the money on ISO visable in the viewfinder than that stupid Point & Shoot print button. If this was intended to be a P&S capable camera, it would have a pop up flash. Odd mixture of features IMHO.



Aug 23, 2005 at 10:11 PM
AJSJones
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p.2 #16 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


The 5D's VF information display looks just like that from the 20D - funny that!

Losloslos has hit the nail on the head. WIth sensors topping out around the max that most folks want, the upgrades must be in the nature of features. There's still no excuse for the MLU fiasco, but using a proven VF display allows a faster ccycle and keeps the costs down to get an "affordable" FF unit out there. You have to admit the cry for FF has been louder than better MLU



Aug 23, 2005 at 10:16 PM
Tom Conte
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p.2 #17 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


smaniscalco wrote:
So...you just dispense with the light meter entirely I guess?


This may sound weird to people who grew up on auto-everything, but after using Leicas for a while, I can usually guess from a scene what a CWA meter would give me for exposure. I'm usually within a stop of the right exposure. For film, or increasingly for RAW, that's good enough.

It takes time to build up that kind of intuition, and some might argue it is not exactly time well spent. I didn't build it up on purpose. With an M3, for example, you have an external meter on the 'accessory' shoe. You look at the meter, set aperture and shutter. It takes time. After a while, your brain just short circuits the process because, my theory is, our brains evolved to support our natural lazyness. So you just look at the scene, and you know, f/2.8 1/30th, look at the meter, and yup, that's what it is.

Tom



Aug 23, 2005 at 10:44 PM
kahren
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p.2 #18 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


pscard wrote:
I find it quite strange that people don't intuitively pick up what their ISO setting is based on aperture/shutter speed for the amount of available light.


exactly, thoguh it would be nice to see the iso in a viewfinder and have a one button depress and scroll to change iso like the ability to change the aperature in the Av mode.



Aug 23, 2005 at 10:57 PM
Trucker
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p.2 #19 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Maybe, the viewfinder on the 5D is already too crowded with all the info it displays.
And to get more on it would require a larger viewfinder, which would make for a larger and more expensive camera. As someone else stated, Canon was trying to hit a certain price point and some things had to be different.
Like others here, I have learned to check my ISO settings before I start shooting.
james
aka:Trucker



Aug 23, 2005 at 11:41 PM
losloslos
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p.2 #20 · 5D: no ISO display on viewfinder?


Re: Hilarious..thanks...where will the feature madness stop? Hopefully in my camera bag

Re: Guy, he's right...sheez, I'm probably the youngest guy that would qualify as an "old-timer" (38), but, none of us "Whizbang Astronaut Digital Guys" could deal with a reality that hit me twice on my F1's (two new, one old): Meter Failure.

I used to shoot 80% Tri-X, and some Ektachrome. I had a pattern, the chrome would only go into my "old-new F1", and, that one always had the older 55 1.2. Since I shot the same film, in the same scenarios...either CA sunlight (which has more diffusion than an omnibounce because of the dust) or nightclubs (lots of smoke), I had my metering memorized...two times my meter crapped out on a particular camera, and two times they went bonkers unpredictably on two different bodies.

Today, we'd just wet ourselves and phone-home-E.T. (CPS).

I do business pretty extensively in Japan...my current project is this:
http://www.mobileintelligence.jp/

...basically a tour through the back-end of the Japanese cellular industry...pretty interesting. Their cell phones, and what you can do with them, are getting more, and more ahead of ours. This is like a glimpse of the future.

So, I've been to a gazoodle (but not a jillion) meetings in Japan, and, I tell ya, they just don't embrace the "Marketing-Oriented Approach"...that is:

- Understanding of user "Roles"
- Understanding of "The Solution" to a necessary problem
- Business case(s) that combines the above
- Top-Level Requirements, must trace to a business case
- Detailed Requirements, must trace to a business case

They are kinda (not totally, and, it depends on the organization) in the 1960's "Washer Machines Must Have More Features" mode in Japan.. Bells, whistles? Sure, how about 200? They believe that the user will buy the BEST solution...but, us Americans in particular, we worship money, so, we want the CHEAPEST solution that works the BEST, somehow, but, MAN I LOVE THAT CHEAP STUFF FROM OVER THERE.

People in Japan, when they buy a car, or cell phone, they get to price about an hour into it. They want to understand the benefits, the consequences of ownership, how it will make their life more convenient/safe/interesting/better.

Clearly, to merge their ideas of "Best" and our ideas of "Man I love money, how can I get some more of it?" they are re-using parts off the 20D.

- The case will be the same, 'cept for the top plate
- The electronics will be jammed in to fit the existing case, which is now minus flash (both in the prism area, but also, the heat-generating electronics)
- The mount area will be the same except for the mount itself...same O.D., not the same mount

On that type of machine (bargain for its type of resolution) it'll all be about the sensor, everything is riding on their ability to produce yields of the sensor, and, improve their yields as they go along. The single most important investment Canon has made in the last 5yrs is getting into the CMOS sensor technology. Not that its CMOS vs. TTL or ECL or whatever, but, that they make it themselves.

I toured the Canon factory (one of them) and we talked about cameras (you know me, copiers just didn't blow my mind) and they were talking among themselves in rapid J and I picked out a word I didn't know (there's lots) because it was used over and over.

Its corporate slang....for camera bodies. You'll never believe it...

"Filmburner".

This shows their viewpoint in the matter...the execs at Canon are all in-house guys ('cept at the top) and they remember real well being paid once for cameras, and Kodak being paid daily. Now, they get to be the film guys too....and charge lots of money for bodies.

G.



Aug 24, 2005 at 12:25 AM
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