fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1              end
  

Archive 2005 · understanding auto focus

  
 
rico
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · understanding auto focus


RDKirk wrote:
Actually, no, the system does not work on the basis of maximizing contrast, although contrast is a factor. Over on Rob Galbraith's forum, there is a recent topic devoted to gathering information on how the system works.

According to the major material in Canon's "Lens Work III," the description in their US patent application, and remarks by Chuck Westfall, to put it briefly:

The AF system sensors are located in the floor of the mirror box. They receive the image through the semi-silvered mirror, which is then reflected downward by a secondary mirror hinged to the back of the main mirror. This
...Show more

Instructions for Manual Focus: Turn focus ring on the lens until the picture looks nice, then hit shutter release.

()



May 31, 2005 at 10:42 PM
Pondria
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #2 · understanding auto focus


Thank you VERY much !
One question.
The image seems to be projected on the AF sensor arrays just like on the main image sensor except that one more reflection is involved by the mirror. Where is the Phase information created ?



May 31, 2005 at 10:57 PM
Pondria
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · understanding auto focus


rico wrote:
Instructions for Manual Focus: Turn focus ring on the lens until the picture looks nice, then hit shutter release.

()


No wonder why some folks here claim that they can do MF faster than AF



May 31, 2005 at 10:59 PM
nottageek
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · understanding auto focus


Outstanding post. It should be published as an article somewhere.....


May 31, 2005 at 11:04 PM
RDKirk
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · understanding auto focus


nottageek wrote:
Outstanding post. It should be published as an article somewhere.....


There are five main places this information comes from:

1. Canon's "Lens Work III" book (glossary, mostly)
2. Canon's latest application for a US patent on their autofocus system
Go to www.pat2pdf.org and enter patent # 6,603,929
3. Canon's pamphet on getting the most from EOS DSLRs
www.photoworkshop.com/canon/EOS_Digital.pdf
4. Canon Professional Services European web site FAQ
www.cps.canon-europe.com/faq/index.do
5. Lots of methodical observation and practice with the camera.




Jun 01, 2005 at 06:51 AM
20Dshooter
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · understanding auto focus


RDKirk, thank you SO much!! Extremely helpful and useful.

Mods, can we have a sticky on this thread for a while?



Jun 01, 2005 at 07:05 AM
Y_vdm
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #7 · understanding auto focus


Looking for buying a 20D, I'm now nearly convicted. Such explanations help to adapt your way of taking pictures.

Thx for this clear and rich explanation



Jun 02, 2005 at 06:13 AM
Monito
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · understanding auto focus


Yay! A GIMP fan!


Jun 02, 2005 at 06:18 AM
20Dshooter
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · understanding auto focus


Y_vdm wrote:
Looking for buying a 20D, I'm now nearly convicted.


Yep! Convicted and condemned to the uncurable disease of buying bigger, better gear, and whiter lenses!!!



Jun 02, 2005 at 06:53 AM
Andy Wilson
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · understanding auto focus


This is indeed excellent. I wonder if you could throw some additional light on how flash units (or the ST-E2) contribute to the process?


Jun 03, 2005 at 12:27 AM
MaxG
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · understanding auto focus


tag


Jun 03, 2005 at 02:35 AM
DNA.
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #12 · understanding auto focus


This subject has been out of focus untill now. Well done and thanks.


Jun 03, 2005 at 03:00 AM
Vikasmal
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · understanding auto focus


An amazing post. THANK YOU.

Cheers, Vikas.



Jun 07, 2005 at 11:06 AM
Bob Bell
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · understanding auto focus


That is great information on what AF is and how it works, I just do not believe it has been applied in the real world that well. I believe the AF system has a range of acceptable results and that range is too large. I see behaviour occasionally where you take 3 one shot images in a row with the same target, lighting, etc... and one will be really close to dead on and the other too are slightly front or slightly back focused. Once, I started noticing this, I started using FTM a lot more, and often once AF locks, the smallest turn of the focus will make the image pop because the contrast is dead on then. I have seen this on my D60, EOS 3, 1D mk II. I assume this is a common design among Canon and other companies AF to make it more usable in all conditions. I think the ultimate way to maximize the AF system is to let it get you in the range and manually tweak the focus until happy.


Jun 07, 2005 at 11:26 AM
RDKirk
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · understanding auto focus


Bob Bell wrote:
That is great information on what AF is and how it works, I just do not believe it has been applied in the real world that well. I believe the AF system has a range of acceptable results and that range is too large. I see behaviour occasionally where you take 3 one shot images in a row with the same target, lighting, etc... and one will be really close to dead on and the other too are slightly front or slightly back focused. Once, I started noticing this, I started using FTM a lot more, and often once
...Show more

Presuming the camera is functioning properly, that "range" is either 1/3 of the depth of focus (high precision mode--f2.8 or larger with the center AF sensor) or the entire depth of focus (normal mode--smaller than f2.8 or the outer sensors).

The depth of focus varies with aperture just like depth of field--smaller apertures increase the depth of focus. However, depth of focus does NOT change with focused distance or focal length.

The "depth of focus" is the range at the sensor plane in which an image point forms a blur circle no larger than the manufacturer's designated circle of confusion (CoC). For Canon, that CoC is 0.035mm for 24x36mm cameras and 0.020mm for APS-C cameras 20D and later.

If the camera places the actual focused plane within the depth of focus range, the intended focused plane of the subject should "look sharp" on a 6x9-inch print from a distance of 10 inches. In "high precision mode" the intended plane of focus should "look sharp" on about an 11x14-inch print at 10 inches (extrapolating from the standard size given by Canon for normal mode).

This standard is important to understand. If you use high precision mode and view the image on a monitor at 100 percent of the original pixel resolution, do not expect the actual plane of focus to coincide with the intended plane of focus. It's not necessarily going to do that--it's only designed to get close enough to "look sharp" at the standard final display enlargement size and viewing distance. If it does that much, then it's doing its job as designed.

If you're operating at normal AF precision, the camera will happily settle for any point within the depth of focus range (and not necessarily the same place every time--randomness within limits is what "tolerance" means in this context).

If you need optimum sharpness at greater than the standard final display sizes and viewing distances, then yes, you'll have to focus manually. However, a lot of focusing problems are caused by users not realizing that even autofocus requires learning certain techniques, some similar to the techniques of using a manual split-image rangefinder.

One person on this forum has reported an e-mail from Sigma stating that Canon cameras will tend to stop at the first part of the depth of focus range they reach, depending on the direction the lens must move to get there. My results have not verified that, and I don't think it really corresponds to how Canon says the system works.



Jun 08, 2005 at 07:27 AM
jason_watkins
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #16 · understanding auto focus


RDKirk: any chance you'd do a "understanding automatic exposure"? Is it as simple as the camera tries to make the (possibly weighted) average luminance be zone 5, ie middle of the (gamma corrected) histogram?


Jun 08, 2005 at 02:39 PM
JimH.
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · understanding auto focus


Excellent, RDKirk, and thank you very much for this well-written explanation.

It's too bad this sort of information is not in the basic manual that comes with the camera. It would make it ever so much easier for everyone to use the camera and would probably save Canon an enormous amount of wasted time and money "repairing" people's perfectly functional cameras.

I do have one question, though.

You state:

“Contrary to recent remarks on another topic, the camera CAN distinguish contrast between equally bright hues of red and green just as the eye can--the sensors are color corrected.”

Are you saying that if you have, for example, a stripe of red running through a field of green, and the luminance of the red is identical to the luminance of the green, the camera can detect this and be able to focus on it? And if so, how is this accomplished? If the sensors were color corrected, I’d think that they would see no difference. Or are there in fact extra sensors, with color filters (much like the imaging sensor) so that it can effectively “see” in color?

And further, can it distinguish other color differences as well?

This would be very nice.

I suppose I could test this easily enough, but if you know how it works, I’d love to hear the details.

Thanks again for your time to research this and condense it into a concise and easy to read explanation. All 20D owners should print this out and keep it with their camera manual. And all new 20D owners should be required to read it.

The explanations of how this works in the camera’s manual are feeble at best. The money that Canon saves by not including this extra detail, and by not hiring good translators must certainly be offset by an enormous flow of cameras being returned for unneeded service and by lost sales as people read about all of the “focusing problems” that the 20D allegedly has. If people know how the system works, they can get more out of it and also understand its limitations.

Canon owes you.

Jim H.





Jun 09, 2005 at 01:58 AM
1              end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1              end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account