p.1 #1 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
I just made the connection. I've been wondering why the Chinese lens industry has been advancing so quickly, going from cheap manual yellowish lenses to challenging the state of the art in just a few years. I can't imagine the market of M-mount-users-who-can't-afford-Leica-prices is that lucrative.
Zeiss optics are what makes ASML's advanced chipmaking possible, ASML makes the machines that create the chips used in AI. The US has sanctioned ASML and advanced AI chips from China, so China has needed to create their own chip-making industry. High quality optics for cameras are a side benefit. I'm sure there are military applications as well.
Essentially, we are the unintended beneficiaries of China's state-sponsored optics industry program.
p.1 #2 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
This is quite a massive leap.
Do you have any evidence their internal DUV/EUV optics (mirror based) development for silicon lithography has transferred anything to the commercial visible imaging (glass based) industry?
What is more likely to blame is growth in expertise, software advancements and market expansion.
p.1 #3 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
Yes, evidence would be a nice touch to the claim. It's a story repeated in many industries, however. They just work hard, they work smart, they educate their children well, they run industrial capitalism within judicious state oversight.
Zeiss is involved in the lithography process as a crucial player (4:13 in the following incredible story) from Inside China Business. I was transfixed watching it yesterday morning. As Kevin Walmsley puts it:
'When regulators in the West prevent their companies from selling China any bread, China answers by cutting off shipments of flour'
..
Chip Wars Update: China blows up ASML's supply chain for EUV machines
p.1 #4 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
Let's not forget that a big factor of the much lower prices for Chinese-manufactured M lenses is China government support and subsidizing. Main reason is to gain a foothold into the western markets with dumping prices - we see this in even bigger scale with electric vehicles (BYD!) and many other articles made in China. We still need to applaud the current quality of Chinese M lenses which has come far from when it first started with 7Artisans as best known about 10 years ago.
China inventors and manufacturers are smart to see market niches and potential demand. Since Leica removed all more affordable camera and lens M options, it opened a niche fore more affordable M glass. It is possible that we might also see a Chinese competitor to Leica's overpriced EV-1 M camera for the same reason. Make it simple with good but not the latest sensor technology and price it in the less than $1500 range, and you have a winner.
p.1 #7 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
Someone give me an example of a Chinese-owned company that is allowed to use a modern Sony sensor in their camera (DJI excluded, as they've been grandfathered, and cameraphones don't count). That number, which is 0 in case you didn't know, won't be changing.
p.1 #8 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
Many Chinese dashcams use state of the art starvis sensors. Many of those are in phones though.
Both ZWO and QHY use the absolute bleeding edge Sony FF and medium format sensors. I have an ASI6200MM from ZWO that has the Sony IMX455-ALK 60mp monochrome sensor in it.
RoamingScott wrote:
Someone give me an example of a Chinese-owned company that is allowed to use a modern Sony sensor in their camera (DJI excluded, as they've been grandfathered, and cameraphones don't count). That number, which is 0 in case you didn't know, won't be changing.
p.1 #9 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
thrice wrote:
This is quite a massive leap.
Do you have any evidence their internal DUV/EUV optics (mirror based) development for silicon lithography has transferred anything to the commercial visible imaging (glass based) industry?
What is more likely to blame is growth in expertise, software advancements and market expansion.
Even more important is where is has China been getting its super pure quartz needed for the crucibles required to make the super high performance chips needed for AI. Currently, the only proven source is in the US. Cutting off the chips themselves but allowing them the quartz is allowing them to develop that technology themselves. At the same time China recognizes their vulnerability in this are. So they began a search for there own resource. They may have found one finaly in China that combined with specialized refining technology may solve this problem. China refuses to be restrained long term in such ways and is willing to invest what it takes it seems.
p.1 #10 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
That's interesting, I thought quartz (fused silica) could be grown in lab conditions with almost perfect structure? I have to admit I am very much uninformed on the specifics.
With the money involved I'm sure China would build such a lab. It's not like the limited market for large Flourite crystals which led to Ohara (Canon) being the only source.
1bwana1 wrote:
Even more important is where is has China been getting its super pure quartz needed for the crucibles required to make the super high performance chips needed for AI. Currently, the only proven source is in the US. Cutting off the chips themselves but allowing them the quartz is allowing them to develop that technology themselves. At the same time China recognizes their vulnerability in this are. So they began a search for there own resource. They may have found one finaly in China that combined with specialized refining technology may solve this problem. China refuses to be restrained long term in such ways and is willing to invest what it takes it seems. ...Show more →
p.1 #11 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
asdfghreturns wrote:
I just made the connection. I've been wondering why the Chinese lens industry has been advancing so quickly, going from cheap manual yellowish lenses to challenging the state of the art in just a few years. I can't imagine the market of M-mount-users-who-can't-afford-Leica-prices is that lucrative.
Not everything requires AI. Most foundational photographic innovations, from Aspherical (AL) and Extra-low Dispersion (ED) glass to High Refractive Index (HRI) elements, were developed over 50 years ago. The past decade has simply made these technologies affordable.
Since 2005, China's CDGM has become the world's leading supplier of optical glass, overtaking legacy giants like Schott (major supplier of Zeiss), Corning (major supplier of Leica), Ohara, and Hoya (Japanese lenses). Market dominance creates a virtuous cycle, massive scale frees up resources to refine quality, reduce the yellowish tint, and drive costs down for everyone.
p.1 #12 · Thank AI for Thypoch, LLL, Viltrox, Sirui, etc., but not in the way you think
retrofocus wrote:
Let's not forget that a big factor of the much lower prices for Chinese-manufactured M lenses is China government support and subsidizing.
Many of these third-party Leica-M lens makers, like Mandler, Peace, Artizlab, and Seagull, sell almost exclusively within China. A major reason is that they simply can’t afford the liberal 30-day return policies typical of Western markets.
Not everything is some dark scheme backed by the Chinese government. Strip away the global warranty and return safety net, and the price drops accordingly.
