p.1 #3A link to an authoritative table of sensor read-out speeds?
I don't have an answer for you, but I suspect there is no source for this. Unless I'm missing something the github project looks a bit out of date since it does not include recent Sony bodies. It's a fairly technical thing to measure, so it would have to be a publication getting every camera body and doing reviews. DPR sometimes has the specs in their reviews recently, but you have to dig it out. There's also the question of how do camera settings affect readout speed? E.g. E-shutter vs. Mechanical, lossy vs. lossless compression, burst mode--all of these change the result.
Personally, I'm curious whether people with the recent A7V and A7RVI bodies are finding the e-shutter to be sufficient for most shooting (1/60s and 1/50s, respectively). I did not find this to be the case when the readout speeds were <1/15s on previous generations, and tended to use EFCS or full mechanical. Now I'm spoiled by the A1 though
This is very helpful, LBJ2--thank you. I am surprised that Horshack hasn't kept this up. I also thought I remembered that @snapsy had a table with a number of recent cameras on it, but I haven't found it.
I am glad that DPReview is apparently going to cover sensor readout speed more routinely in their reviews. It is a key statistic for many purposes. It is notable how much faster the Nikon Z8 and the Canon R5II are than the recent Sony bodies. But the A1/A1II is still there.
*Scroll down to the "How it compares" section.This is very helpful, LBJ2--thank you. I am surprised that Horshack hasn't kept this up. I also thought I remembered that @snapsy@ had a table with a number of recent cameras on it, but I haven't found it.
I am glad that DPReview is apparently going to cover sensor eadout more routinely in their reviews. It is a key statistic for many purposes. It is notable how much faster the Nikon Z8 and the Canon R5II are than the recent Sony bodies. But the A1/A1II is still there.
Yep, I need to be more active in recruiting submitters for the newer models. Many times I buy the camera myself off B&S to test this (and other things) but that can get expensive if I get caught on the wrong side of the devaluation curve. Plus it takes a while before reasonably-priced used copies become available on B&S.
Note the Z8/Z9 have identical readout speeds vs the A1/A1II, when normalized for their slightly different row counts. This is likely because they share the same core sensor IP.
*Scroll down to the "How it compares" section.This is very helpful, LBJ2--thank you. I am surprised that Horshack hasn't kept this up. I also thought I remembered that @snapsy@@ had a table with a number of recent cameras on it, but I haven't found it.
I am glad that DPReview is apparently going to cover sensor eadout more routinely in their reviews. It is a key statistic for many purposes. It is notable how much faster the Nikon Z8 and the Canon R5II are than the recent Sony bodies. But the A1/A1II is still there.Yep, I need to be more active in recruiting submitters for the newer models. Many times I buy the camera myself off B&S to test this (and other things) but that can get expensive if I get caught on the wrong side of the devaluation curve. Plus it takes a while before reasonably-priced used copies become available on B&S.
Note the Z8/Z9 have identical readout speeds vs the A1/A1II, when normalized for their slightly different row counts. This is likely because they share the same core sensor IP.
Buying each camera would definitely get expensive! But I'm sure people would be happy to cooperate with submissions. As I recall, your table was very well-done and useful about this key data point.
Also, isn't the sensor readout speed on the A1/A1II about as fast as the transit time of the slit on the mechanical shutter?
p.1 #8A link to an authoritative table of sensor read-out speeds?
I'm pretty happy with the ES performance of my A7V. I only care about tennis and for that I didn't see oblong balls or elongated racquets. However I plan to shoot some indoor volleyball once the season opens in the fall.
p.1 #11A link to an authoritative table of sensor read-out speeds?
In my mind we are concentrating too hard on sensor readout alone. There are many other sources of delay other than just readout speed.
I used AI to spit out some of the below (then edited it manually), would take to long to write it up.
The complete AF loop
Photon integration → Pixel/row conversion → Sensor readout → Image processing → Subject/eye detection → AF calculation → Command sent to lens → Lens motor movement → Lens settles → Repeat
The delays can broadly be divided into:
Sensor measurement latency
Photon integration + conversion + availability/readout of AF data
Computational latency
Image processing + subject recognition/tracking + AF calculation/prediction
Mechanical/control latency
Lens communication + motor response + settling
The useful metric for tracking performance is therefore the effective AF loop latency and update rate, rather than simply the sensor's full-frame readout time.
I suspect A9iii has the fastest "Sensor measurement latency", because even though both A9iii and A1 have the same "120 AF calculations per second" the A9iii nails focus in conditions where A1 cant.
The A7RVI appears to run a larger and more accurate AI model, but this comes at a cost, the model runs at only 60 calculations per second, suggesting higher computational latency. This is similar to the Canon R5ii which also only does 60 calculations per second.
Definition of above terminology
Photon integration
The period during which a pixel collects light.
Photons hit the photodiode and generate electrons. The accumulated charge represents the amount of light received during the integration period. AF needs enough photons to make a sufficiently reliable measurement.
Pixel/row conversion
Converting the accumulated charge into an electrical/digital measurement.
The charge in each pixel is converted to a voltage and then digitized by an ADC. Depending on the sensor architecture, this can happen row-by-row, column-parallel, or using more highly parallel circuitry.
Sensor readout
Moving the digitized pixel values from the sensor into the camera's processing system.
The sensor transfers the resulting image/AF data through its output interfaces. "Readout speed" usually refers to how quickly the sensor can get a complete frame, or the relevant portions of one, out of the imaging array.
Image processing
Preparing sensor data for subsequent algorithms.
The camera may perform corrections, filtering, normalization, noise reduction, demosaicing, or other preprocessing so useful information is available to the AF and recognition systems. AF does not necessarily require a fully processed RGB image.
Subject/eye detection
Determining what the camera should focus on and where it is.
Recognition algorithms identify a person, animal, bird, eye, head, etc., and determine the coordinates of the desired target. This is distinct from determining whether that target is actually in focus.
AF calculation
Determining how the lens needs to move to bring the selected target into focus.
On-sensor phase-detection information provides information about defocus, including its direction and magnitude. The AF system combines this with tracking and prediction information to calculate the required focus correction.
Command sent to lens
Communicating the requested focus movement to the lens.
The camera body sends instructions electronically through the lens mount, telling the lens how its focusing elements need to move.
Lens motor movement
Physically moving the focusing elements.
Linear motors, voice-coil motors, stepping motors, etc. accelerate the focusing group toward the requested position. Lens design and focusing-group mass strongly affect how quickly this can happen.
Lens settles
The focusing group reaches and stabilizes sufficiently close to its intended position.
The motor decelerates and the focusing elements become sufficiently stable. Subsequent AF measurements can then determine whether another correction is required.
p.1 #12A link to an authoritative table of sensor read-out speeds?
aCuria wrote:
In my mind we are concentrating too hard on sensor readout alone. There are many other sources of delay other than just readout speed.
I used AI to spit out some of the below (then edited it manually), would take to long to write it up.
The complete AF loop
Photon integration → Pixel/row conversion → Sensor readout → Image processing → Subject/eye detection → AF calculation → Command sent to lens → Lens motor movement → Lens settles → Repeat
The delays can broadly be divided into:
Sensor measurement latency
Photon integration + conversion + availability/readout of AF data
Computational latency
Image processing + subject recognition/tracking + AF calculation/prediction
Mechanical/control latency
Lens communication + motor response + settling
The useful metric for tracking performance is therefore the effective AF loop latency and update rate, rather than simply the sensor's full-frame readout time.
I suspect A9iii has the fastest "Sensor measurement latency", because even though both A9iii and A1 have the same "120 AF calculations per second" the A9iii nails focus in conditions where A1 cant.
The A7RVI appears to run a larger and more accurate AI model, but this comes at a cost, the model runs at only 60 calculations per second, suggesting higher computational latency. This is similar to the Canon R5ii which also only does 60 calculations per second.
Definition of above terminology
Photon integration
The period during which a pixel collects light.
Photons hit the photodiode and generate electrons. The accumulated charge represents the amount of light received during the integration period. AF needs enough photons to make a sufficiently reliable measurement.
Pixel/row conversion
Converting the accumulated charge into an electrical/digital measurement.
The charge in each pixel is converted to a voltage and then digitized by an ADC. Depending on the sensor architecture, this can happen row-by-row, column-parallel, or using more highly parallel circuitry.
Sensor readout
Moving the digitized pixel values from the sensor into the camera's processing system.
The sensor transfers the resulting image/AF data through its output interfaces. "Readout speed" usually refers to how quickly the sensor can get a complete frame, or the relevant portions of one, out of the imaging array.
Image processing
Preparing sensor data for subsequent algorithms.
The camera may perform corrections, filtering, normalization, noise reduction, demosaicing, or other preprocessing so useful information is available to the AF and recognition systems. AF does not necessarily require a fully processed RGB image.
Subject/eye detection
Determining what the camera should focus on and where it is.
Recognition algorithms identify a person, animal, bird, eye, head, etc., and determine the coordinates of the desired target. This is distinct from determining whether that target is actually in focus.
AF calculation
Determining how the lens needs to move to bring the selected target into focus.
On-sensor phase-detection information provides information about defocus, including its direction and magnitude. The AF system combines this with tracking and prediction information to calculate the required focus correction.
Command sent to lens
Communicating the requested focus movement to the lens.
The camera body sends instructions electronically through the lens mount, telling the lens how its focusing elements need to move.
Lens motor movement
Physically moving the focusing elements.
Linear motors, voice-coil motors, stepping motors, etc. accelerate the focusing group toward the requested position. Lens design and focusing-group mass strongly affect how quickly this can happen.
Lens settles
The focusing group reaches and stabilizes sufficiently close to its intended position.
The motor decelerates and the focusing elements become sufficiently stable. Subsequent AF measurements can then determine whether another correction is required....Show more →
Most who concern themselves with sensor readout speed are doing so to characterize the potential for rolling shutter artifacts, so none of the above information applies except for how long it takes to transfer the analog charge to digital, which for CMOS rolling shutter sensors also includes the readout time since there is no intermediate storage of the charge like there is on a global shutter. For those who are also concerned with FPS and AF sampling speed, the same applies - for a CMOS rolling shutter sensor, the "readout rate" applies to both the charge transfer and readout into memory.
p.1 #13A link to an authoritative table of sensor read-out speeds?
Each shutter type has issues:
Full mechanical - can cause camera shake at 1/60~1/200s shutter speeds, reducing sharpness. Also adds a slight capture delay.
EFCS - variable exposure and truncated bokeh at high shutter speeds (1/2000s+)
E-shutter - rolling shutter (image distortion with fast moving objects + slow readout), LED banding/flicker with slow readout
Faster sensor readout will negate the downsides of e-shutter, which is why we care about this spec.
Sony has no way to automatically switch between mechanical and EFCS modes based on shutter speed, but that would also be a nice feature to avoid the downsides of these two shutter types (at least for the cameras that HAVE a full mechanical shutter, i.e. not the A7C series).