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Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?

  
 
chez
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p.4 #1 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


gdanmitchell wrote:
William Penn wasn't a bad photographer, from what I hear, and he intentionally excluded background environment hints.

I've heard that this Richard Avedon fellow is a real up and comer, too.

There are all kinds of ways of making portrait photographs. It is certainly possible to place a contextualizing background behind the subject. (You'll see a fair amount of that in things like photographs of executives, with stuff in the background that signifies their status — desks, tall buildings, line-ups of awards, you name it.) That's one approach. But imagine if that were the only approach to portraiture?

Often the idea is to prevent
...Show more

Yes, but I visit the thread to actually try to understand other’s viewpoints on 3d. You on the other hand, big fella, visit it just to bitch and be heard.



Aug 30, 2026 at 12:51 PM
Ripolini
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p.4 #2 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Nifty Fifty wrote:
The depth of field at 2.5/105mm is practically identical to that at 1.2/50mm, provided the distance is chosen so that the subject is the same size in both cases.


I'm not sure ... if magnification, i.e. filling of the frame with the girl's face, is the same, DoF depends on aperture (see attached equations where R is the magnification, or reproduction ratio, F the focal length and P the pupil factor) and @ f/1.2 we get less depth of field. Of course, to get the same framing, with the shorter lens you must be closer to the subject, and this alters perspective, along with the angle of view.

DoF (N is the aperture, e.g., 1.2, 2.5, etc.: CoC is the Circle of confusion that depends on the sensor/film size):


AoV (x is the size of the sensor/film, e.g. the diagonal):


Edited on Aug 30, 2026 at 01:03 PM · View previous versions



Aug 30, 2026 at 12:58 PM
Jack Flesher
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p.4 #3 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Nifty Fifty wrote:
What are we even talking about? Is the shallow depth of field of a 2.5/105mm lens less boring than that of a 1.2/50mm lens simply because it is supposedly less spectacular? That's completely absurd.
The depth of field at 2.5/105mm is practically identical to that at 1.2/50mm, provided the distance is chosen so that the subject is the same size in both cases.
BTW, like @gdanmitchell@ I would also guess that the 105mm lens was stopped down slightly when photographing the Afghan girl.


You obviously like to argue, evidenced throughout this and other threads... Don't know why you chose to with me as I'm not arguing with anybody about anything here, I was simply pointing out that good images with mundane, slower glass can still be made.

Now I will engage with your rather arrogant and asinine point. That image could not have been made from the same distance with a 50/1.2 (or of any aperture) unless it was significantly cropped after the fact -- which was not regularly done in 35mm transparency film days; and to that point, this image would have been cropped 2x, or to roughly a 12x18mm panel to render as such. So to avoid that nonsense, the photographer would have needed to be a bit less than half the distance, and used, wait for it, about the same aperture that he used with the 105 for an equivalent DoF rendering... And to a minor point, IF the 105/2.5 was stopped down, it was likely not much beyond f2.8 based on actual DoF shown. This we can argue until the cows come home, and McCurry himself may not be certain -- but he's still alive so please feel free to reach out ask him, then you can argue with whatever he claims to your heart's desire...




Aug 30, 2026 at 01:00 PM
Nifty Fifty
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p.4 #4 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


@Jack Flesher@
@Ripolini@

I stated quite clearly: "provided the distance is chosen so that the subject is the same size in both cases." Of course, a 50mm lens has a different angle of view than a 105mm lens. I think it is safe to assume that this is understood here. No one claimed that the resulting images would be identical. The point was solely the depth of field. And that is indeed comparable if you move close enough to the subject with the 50mm f/1.2 so that the framing matches that of the 105mm f/2.5.



Aug 30, 2026 at 01:18 PM
Ripolini
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p.4 #5 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Nifty Fifty wrote:
I stated quite clearly: "provided the distance is chosen so that the subject is the same size in both cases."


If the size of the subject is the same, and if we use the same sensor size, DoF does depends on aperture only (well, mostly, but P is negligible ... and assuming the same diameter of the CoC, which depends mostly on sensor size, but depends on other factors too, e.g., print size, viewing distance, etc.).

P.S.: the above DoF equation holds at short distances, not at infinity (where R = 0); it's valid for close-up portraits (like the Afghan girl) and macrophotography; in both case, DoF extends approximately 50% in front of and 50% behind the plane of focus.



Aug 30, 2026 at 01:21 PM
Nifty Fifty
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p.4 #6 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


You're right. I was misled by the difference in compression. My post (p. 3, #20) is therefore nonsense, and I apologize.


Aug 30, 2026 at 01:38 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #7 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Jack Flesher wrote:
You obviously like to argue, evidenced throughout this and other threads... Don't know why you chose to with me as I'm not arguing with anybody about anything here, I was simply pointing out that good images with mundane, slower glass can still be made.

Now I will engage with your rather arrogant and asinine point. That image could not have been made from the same distance with a 50/1.2 (or of any aperture) unless it was significantly cropped after the fact -- which was not regularly done in 35mm transparency film days; and to that point, this image would
...Show more

There is quite a bit of information about McCurry’s famous photography online. One source says this:

“McCurry shot the portrait using a Nikon FM2 camera with a 105mm Nikkor lens, loaded with Kodachrome 64 film.(2) The lighting? Entirely natural. The tent's opening provided soft, directional illumination that wrapped around Gula's face, creating dimensional modeling without harsh shadows. This wasn't studio perfection—it was available light photography executed with extraordinary precision.

The aperture setting was likely around f/5.6, providing sufficient depth of field to keep her face sharp while allowing the background to fall into a complementary blur. That background color—a rich, oxidized green-brown—wasn't accidental. McCurry positioned Gula against a worn chalkboard, creating a color harmony that makes those green eyes explode from the frame.3 The composition follows classical portrait conventions: eyes positioned in the upper third, direct eye contact with the lens, triangular face shape leading the viewer's gaze upward.”

The (long) article goes into many other fascinating aspects of the photo and its history.

I learned a few things from the article — and it confirmed a few things I suspected.

Indeed, he used a 105mm focal length lens, stopped down, probably to f/5.6. I had not realized that it was made in a tent nor that it was made with natural light — quite effectively. I had thought about the color contrasts between her skin tones, the color of her clothing, and that green background — but I had entirely overlooked the color relationship between those eyes and that background.

Does all of this imply that using a 105mm lens at f/5.6 is the “best” way to shoot portraits? No. Not remotely. It does seem likely that it was the best way to shoot this portrait, though.

- - -

Nifty Fifty wrote:
You're right. I was misled by the difference in compression. My post (p. 3, #20) is therefore nonsense, and I apologize.


Around here, apologizing when you are wrong is a sign of ethical strength… and it can be somewhat rare.



Aug 30, 2026 at 03:33 PM
 


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SGinNorcal
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p.4 #8 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


I love fast lenses and modern ones seem to have little to no optical disadvantages when stopped down. Of course physical size is still a compromise but that seems to be less than in the past and I think that is a good thing. But are photographers leaning to heavily on blurred backgrounds to make their photo look more creative? Probably, I think its human nature to emulate others style that we like until something is overdone. You could have the same conversation about sharpening and saturation tools in today's software. I think that manufacturers are a least attempting to offer what people want and there seems to be a pretty good appetite for more speed.


Aug 30, 2026 at 03:57 PM
Jack Flesher
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p.4 #9 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


gdanmitchell wrote:
There is quite a bit of information about McCurry’s famous photography online. One source says this:

“McCurry shot the portrait using a Nikon FM2 camera with a 105mm Nikkor lens, loaded with Kodachrome 64 film.(2) The lighting? Entirely natural. The tent's opening provided soft, directional illumination that wrapped around Gula's face, creating dimensional modeling without harsh shadows. This wasn't studio perfection—it was available light photography executed with extraordinary precision.

The aperture setting was likely around f/5.6, providing sufficient depth of field to keep her face sharp while allowing the background to fall into a complementary blur. That background color—a rich, oxidized green-brown—wasn't McCurry positioned Gula against a worn chalkboard, creating a color harmony that makes those green eyes explode from the frame.3 The composition follows classical portrait conventions: eyes positioned in the upper third, direct eye contact with the lens, triangular face shape leading the viewer's gaze upward.”

The (long) article goes into many other fascinating aspects of the photo and its history.

I learned a few things from the article — and it confirmed a few things I suspected.

Indeed, he used a 105mm focal length lens, stopped down, probably to f/5.6. I had not realized that it was made in a tent nor that it was made with natural light — quite effectively. I had thought about the color contrasts between her skin tones, the color of her clothing, and that green background — but I had entirely overlooked the color relationship between those eyes and that background.

Does all of this imply that using a 105mm lens at f/5.6 is the “best” way to shoot portraits? No. Not remotely. It does seem likely that it was the best way to shoot this portrait, though.

- - -

Around here, apologizing when you are wrong is a sign of ethical strength… and it can be somewhat rare.
...Show more

Not all agree on an absolute f5.6 — so all any of us are doing is guessing. If you look at a large version, it appears he was slightly front focused on her shirt collar and the eyes are in fact a tiny bit softer. Given the amount of oof on the relatively close background, I am sticking with aperture being at the wider end. But it was probably f3.5 and we’re all wrong 🤣







and…









Aug 30, 2026 at 04:15 PM
EB-1
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p.4 #10 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Cliff L. wrote:
There aren't enough fast lenses out there - I hate having to shoot at ISO 12,800 all the time.


You are doing night sports of HS or something like that? I'd like to have a 600/2.8 somethimes, but the DOF is so little that the images would often be useless.

The largest front aperture and light gathering capability lens ever for a production camera was the 1700/4 made by the ZEISS.

EBH



Aug 30, 2026 at 04:54 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #11 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


The great thing about not knowing for sure what aperture McCurry used is that it (hopefully!) reminds us that the aperture he chose (along with things like the brand of gear he used, etc.) are the least important aspects of that photograph.

I read somewhere — perhaps at the link I shared earlier — that the "hands dropping" that affected the pose was suggested by another woman in the tent when the photograph was produced.

In some way, I think we can get tired of seeing the same photograph over and over and watching people gush over it. But let's be honest, all of that other stuff aside, it really is an excellent photograph — and mysterious in the vein of the Mona Lisa. (Also, like so many — if not all — photographs, it "lies." It creates a reality that is powerful, beautiful, and compelling... though it is hard to say what actual truth it tells us.)

On a mildly related note: I recently came into possession of a Nikon FM3a with a Nikkor 50mm f/1.4 lens. As someone who used gear from that era and earlier, handling the thing produced a lot of pleasant nostalgia. (I did not originally shoot Nikon, but other brands from those days.)

I'm no longer a film guy — haven't been for almost three decades (!?) now. So I"m passing it on to one of my sons who does shoot film, and he's thrilled. :-)



Aug 30, 2026 at 05:00 PM
Kevner
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p.4 #12 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


This might be Internet lore, but didn’t McCurry forget to record the girl’s name? There was quite an ado a few years back over the effort to find her and the use of facial recognition if I recall correctly.

As to the original question, yes fast lenses HAVE become boring in the same way that any overcome technical threshold does. Once something becomes common it ceases to hold the imagination.

That has nothing to do with the kind of photography possible with any lens.



Aug 30, 2026 at 07:59 PM
Jack Flesher
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p.4 #13 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Kevner wrote:
This might be Internet lore, but didn’t McCurry forget to record the girl’s name? There was quite an ado a few years back over the effort to find her and the use of facial recognition if I recall correctly.

As to the original question, yes fast lenses HAVE become boring in the same way that any overcome technical threshold does. Once something becomes common it ceases to hold the imagination.

That has nothing to do with the kind of photography possible with any lens.


He found her and photographed her with the original photo in I think 2002. If you Google “second photo of Afghan Girl” or similar you should find the story.



Aug 30, 2026 at 08:04 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #14 · Are Fast Lenses becoming boring?


Kevner wrote:
This might be Internet lore, but didn’t McCurry forget to record the girl’s name? There was quite an ado a few years back over the effort to find her and the use of facial recognition if I recall correctly.

As to the original question, yes fast lenses HAVE become boring in the same way that any overcome technical threshold does. Once something becomes common it ceases to hold the imagination.

That has nothing to do with the kind of photography possible with any lens.


You can read about this and more at the link I included in my earlier post.

Also, he did finally find her years later.



Aug 30, 2026 at 09:47 PM
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