Michael Everet wrote:
I'm the OP. I'm glad to hear of many pleased Fuji shooters who don't use the in-camera recipes or film sims. Reading about Fuji it sounds like this is their main selling point, which makes a non-Fuji owner think, if I'm not going to use it, why should a switch to Fuji. I do have other reasons and will probably be jointing the Fuji contingent soon.
Is it correct, there is no way to problem the film sim dial on the X-E5 to do something else?
If you're going to let the small mindedness of others dictate your behavior, surely you can do better than FUJI
RoamingScott wrote: Michael Everet wroteI'm the OP. I'm glad to hear of many pleased Fuji shooters who don't use the in-camera recipes or film sims. Reading about Fuji it sounds like this is their main selling point, which makes a non-Fuji owner think, if I'm not going to use it, why should a switch to Fuji. I do have other reasons and will probably be jointing the Fuji contingent soon.
Is it correct, there is no way to problem the film sim dial on the X-E5 to do something else?If you're going to let the small mindedness of others dictate your behavior, surely you can do better than FUJI
What on earth does that mean? Let me be clear, I am talking about Fuji's own PR, how it sounds to someone outside the Fuji bubble, and appreciate hearing from the many within it who replied.
Re my post that is quoted here, the word problem was a typo, should be program.
RWNPhoto wrote: Daves3222 wroteSimply ask or enter what Fuji preset you want to emulate and what Fuji camera you have. Chatgpt will then generate the settings to enter manually or generate the preset you can download.If I have a Fuji camera, why do I need ChatGPT to generate one for me? I'd already have it. And to be accurate, Fuji has film Simulations, not presets, and thus in LR (as example), they are profiles, and not presets and those 2 are different...
In my post I stated I use Adobe Camera Raw and in that program they are called presets. In Lightroom they are called profiles. In camera modifications to jpegs are called simulations. Hope that helps. Now maybe explain how you apply your in camera simulations to a raw file. I would be interested.
To the OP: the responses here may be confusing because there are a lot of terms that sound alike but they mean different things.
Fujifilm “film simulations” are base camera profiles that are inspired by various Fuji films and have names like Velvia, Provia, Acros, etc. On all modern Fuji cameras you can select the profile you want, similar to loading a film in a camera, and shoot that way. If you shoot Jpeg, that profile is baked in the image. If you shoot RAW, the profile is loaded as default or you have to pick it depending on which software you use, but you can also pick others. Those profiles are unique to Fuji cameras, though you can create or find something similar for other cameras.
“Film recipes” are variations of the simulations you can program in the camera by choosing different level curves, clarity, grain, color, etc. Again, jpegs will be baked with these tweaks. RAW files will only preserve the base profile (film “simulations”) and you would have to make the curves, color, grain adjustments in post-processing, which can be saved as presets in your software.
I find the Fuji simulations pleasing, unique, and fun to shoot with. They are useful for jpeg and RAW shooting. The recipes can be fun too, but they only really make sense for jpeg shots. I’ve found some that are really good and hard to replicate with RAW processing in the computer. For those that don’t like to spend a lot of time in front of the computer, these jpegs can be good if not great pictures.
EDIT: I’ll add that I shoot RAW+JPEG. There are times when the JPEG turns out perfect. When that happens, I smile and move to the next picture because I just saved time and I’m happy with the picture. Most of the time, I end up working the RAW image. It’s nice to have the JPEG along with the RAW because it is a good reference. Generally, the JPEG will have great rendering but I want to improve tone mapping, dynamic range, or noise/resolution. (Sometimes, after all the work I decide the JPEG was the right one anyway!) Bottom line: yes, the film simulations ARE useful if you shoot RAW. You can find other cameras with unique profiles (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. do this.) Whether Fuji’s implementation is enough for you to switch depends on how much you like the profiles and whether you think the JPEGs will help you. They do for me!
EDIT 2: There are other reasons you may find compelling for acquiring a Fuji camera. The physical design, size, and tactile feel are definitely unique.
RoamingScott wrote:
You can develop your recipes on the computer against RAW files and upload to the camera for future use.
This is one of the misunderstandings - you can't develop recipes on your computer and upload them to the X-E5.
Film simulations, custom settings and recipes are all different - they all have the purpose of providing an easy to use preset that can be applied in camera when the raw data are converted but they are all different.
Your “EDIT 1” gets at an important point. I’m sure many already realize this, but not everyone new to these concepts does: When you use a sim, the effect that it has is “baked in” with jpg files – in other words those changes directly affect the color data that is in the file itself. Essentially you are stuck with that “interpretation” of the photo. (You can edit it, but only to a limited extent, given the nature of jpg files.)
When you use a sim while shooting in raw mode, the sim does ot actually change the underlying raw file data at all. Whether you use a sim or not and regardless of what sim you might choose, the raw file image data will “look” exactly the same. Rather than directly altering the image data, the raw file appends some information about which sim you chose on the camera, and when you open the file in your raw processor (that understands Fujifilm sims) it automatically adjusts/interprets the raw file image data to imitate the effect of that sim. But, importantly, if you select different settings, either manually or by using something like the Adobe profiles/presets, the image remains completely malleable, just like any other RAW file.
So if you wish to combine the effects from sims with the goal of retaining the greatest post-processing flexibility (including deciding to not use the sim), the RAW + JPG camera mode makes a lot of sense. You’ll get your sim effect in the jpg without any further processing, and if you like it you are done. But if the image would benefit from more sophisticated post processing (or if you decide that you don’t really like that sim’s effect in post) you can do everything with the file that you could do with any RAW file.
Erich6_ wrote:
To the OP: the responses here may be confusing because there are a lot of terms that sound alike but they mean different things.
Fujifilm “film simulations” are base camera profiles that are inspired by various Fuji films and have names like Velvia, Provia, Acros, etc. On all modern Fuji cameras you can select the profile you want, similar to loading a film in a camera, and shoot that way. If you shoot Jpeg, that profile is baked in the image. If you shoot RAW, the profile is loaded as default or you have to pick it depending on which software you use, but you can also pick others. Those profiles are unique to Fuji cameras, though you can create or find something similar for other cameras.
“Film recipes” are variations of the simulations you can program in the camera by choosing different level curves, clarity, grain, color, etc. Again, jpegs will be baked with these tweaks. RAW files will only preserve the base profile (film “simulations”) and you would have to make the curves, color, grain adjustments in post-processing, which can be saved as presets in your software.
I find the Fuji simulations pleasing, unique, and fun to shoot with. They are useful for jpeg and RAW shooting. The recipes can be fun too, but they only really make sense for jpeg shots. I’ve found some that are really good and hard to replicate with RAW processing in the computer. For those that don’t like to spend a lot of time in front of the computer, these jpegs can be good if not great pictures.
EDIT: I’ll add that I shoot RAW+JPEG. There are times when the JPEG turns out perfect. When that happens, I smile and move to the next picture because I just saved time and I’m happy with the picture. Most of the time, I end up working the RAW image. It’s nice to have the JPEG along with the RAW because it is a good reference. Generally, the JPEG will have great rendering but I want to improve tone mapping, dynamic range, or noise/resolution. (Sometimes, after all the work I decide the JPEG was the right one anyway!) Bottom line: yes, the film simulations ARE useful if you shoot RAW. You can find other cameras with unique profiles (Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc. do this.) Whether Fuji’s implementation is enough for you to switch depends on how much you like the profiles and whether you think the JPEGs will help you. They do for me!
EDIT 2: There are other reasons you may find compelling for acquiring a Fuji camera. The physical design, size, and tactile feel are definitely unique.
Daves3222 wrote:
In my post I stated I use Adobe Camera Raw and in that program they are called presets. In Lightroom they are called profiles. In camera modifications to jpegs are called simulations. Hope that helps. Now maybe explain how you apply your in camera simulations to a raw file. I would be interested.
Daves3222 wrote:
In my post I stated I use Adobe Camera Raw and in that program they are called presets. In Lightroom they are called profiles. In camera modifications to jpegs are called simulations. Hope that helps. Now maybe explain how you apply your in camera simulations to a raw file. I would be interested.
There are both profiles and presets in Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom. The profiles include camera matching profiles with each of the available film simulations. For example, I can select a camera matching profile using the classic chrome simulation and apply that to the RAW file. Presets are typically just slider adjustments.
RoamingScott wrote: Michael Everet wroteI'm the OP. I'm glad to hear of many pleased Fuji shooters who don't use the in-camera recipes or film sims. Reading about Fuji it sounds like this is their main selling point, which makes a non-Fuji owner think, if I'm not going to use it, why should a switch to Fuji. I do have other reasons and will probably be jointing the Fuji contingent soon.
Is it correct, there is no way to problem the film sim dial on the X-E5 to do something else?If you're going to let the small mindedness of others dictate your behavior, surely you can do better than FUJI
So which brand is the choice of small minded people?
Michael Everet wrote: Mujabad123 wroteWhat raw developer/editing software do you use?Most of the time I use DxO; sometimes I use Lightroom and Photoshop (I'm lucky, my workplace provide me free Adobe products).
Same here. In DXO there are emulations of those recipes (I think they do a very fine job here), which you can use.
Fuji X RAW software can be "better", but I don't use it (I'm very satisfied with DXO PL.
Elite edition and Film Pack.
The recipes are applied to the JPG, and the RAW is left untouched.
So in order to use the recipes, you must at least use JPG. I personally use JPG+RAW.
Also, the film sim dial is not a custom dial, so you cannot assign a different function to it. But you can effectively turn off its functionality by switching it to the "C" position -- then you can change the film simulation using another dial, the Q menu or the main menu system.
I've been shooting Fuji for many years, and there's only one film simulation that I find really useful. That's Acros, which makes excellent black and white images, not overly contrasty. Lightroom and Capture One have their own good enough versions of Acros, so you can shoot raw and apply the film simulation afterwards.
As for colour, I prefer the Cobalt profiles, which have been discussed on this site several times .
EDIT 2: There are other reasons you may find compelling for acquiring a Fuji camera. The physical design, size, and tactile feel are definitely unique.
Thank you for clarifying terms, which do seem to be banded about sometimes vaguely. Yes I have other reasons Fuji looks very compelling. One I'm going to downsize from FF Sony (getting up in years), and experimenting I have found that with all the new post-processing out there, the difference between FF and APS-C is shrinking drastically (DxO, Airty, etc.). Second I would like a pocketable camera. So I'm going to start with the smallest, an X-E4 and Viltrox 28mm and go from there. Maybe just add the X-E5 or wait for the X-Pro4 -- I like rangefinder-placed VF's. I tried a Fuji and like the ergonomics and the X-trans files.
I have been shooting Sony since 2018 with currently the A7RIV, A7CR and A6700. Last year I added my first Fuji, the X-T5, as I found the Sony compacts just too limiting for me. My main issues were the lack of marked control wheels, no AF joystick, a single card slot, the flippy screen, which I really dislike, and in the case of the A7CR, no MS or a MS that is limited to 1/4000ss. Only the full size Sony bodies have these missing features.
The X-T5 solved all these issues for me, yet is still very compact. It has more than enough resolution for me at 40mp and I just love the ergo of X-T5 with the locking control dials, a AF joystick and it has a perfect 3 way tilting screen when shooting for travel/street. Another big plus is the true mechanical shutter with 1/8000ss. Why have fast prime lenses if you have to put a ND filter on to shoot them in bright sunlight, as 1/4000ss just doesn't cut it. And Fuji has a great set of very small, WR fast primes at f2. Very happy with the Fuji system and I used it daily during a recent 10 week trip to Thailand. Have only shot once this year with my Sony gear.
Regarding re-programming the Film Sim dial on the X-E5, that’s my understanding too, as I would prefer a ISO dial rather than the film one on my X-E5 (backup body, I am waiting for a X Pro 4). I do use the film simulations for jpeg often, but just 2 color and 2 B&W and having it built-in to the jpeg means I can transfer photos on site to a person and not have to wait to do in pp and send later. With Fuji you can program a button to bring up the film sims and have a custom set to choose from, so the film dial is not necessary, that is what I do on the X-T5.
I have been shooting Sony since 2018 with currently the A7RIV, A7CR and A6700. Last year I added my first Fuji, the X-T5, as I found the Sony compacts just too limiting for me. My main issues were the lack of marked control wheels, no AF joystick, a single card slot, the flippy screen, which I really dislike, and in the case of the A7CR, no MS or a MS that is limited to 1/4000ss. Only the full size Sony bodies have these missing features.
The X-T5 solved all these issues for me, yet is still very compact. It has more than enough resolution for me at 40mp and I just love the ergo of X-T5 with the locking control dials, a AF joystick and it has a perfect 3 way tilting screen when shooting for travel/street. Another big plus is the true mechanical shutter with 1/8000ss. Why have fast prime lenses if you have to put a ND filter on to shoot them in bright sunlight, as 1/4000ss just doesn't cut it. And Fuji has a great set of very small, WR fast primes at f2. Very happy with the Fuji system and I used it daily during a recent 10 week trip to Thailand. Have only shot once this year with my Sony gear.
Regarding re-programming the Film Sim dial on the X-E5, that’s my understanding too, as I would prefer a ISO dial rather than the film one on my X-E5 (backup body, I am waiting for a X Pro 4). I do use the film simulations for jpeg often, but just 2 color and 2 B&W and having it built-in to the jpeg means I can transfer photos on site to a person and not have to wait to do in pp and send later. With Fuji you can program a button to bring up the film sims and have a custom set to choose from, so the film dial is not necessary, that is what I do on the X-T5....Show more →
Like you I moved from the A7-CR to Fuji. I recently got an X-E5 and I find I don't miss the full frame 60 megapixels at all. 40 megapixels on aps-c is plenty especially with today's processing power. I got the X-E5 mainly because I like the viewfinder on the left. I am also eagerly awaiting the X-Pro4 to see just what it will be. I do miss a joystick but I find that the multiple settings of the front lever provides plenty of options. I do wish we could reprogram the recipe dial. Fuji are you listening?! how about a firmware update to do that, although the problem may be the indications on the dial can’t be changed.
gdanmitchell wrote: SGinNorcal wroteAZ Photo wroteSGinNorcal wroteBut I have old eyes and limited patience for menu diving.That is the whole point of the recipes in the X-E5 - you just turn a dial to change from one recipe to another without menu diving.That's great for film sim/jpg shooters. For the rest of us, they wasted a dial. Use it how you like, I'm just not interested.That's my perspective on that dial. I'd rather have an ISO dial like on the XT5.
I imagine that there are a few people out there who constantly switch recipes/sims as they shoot. A very few. For them, it would be fine to let them dedicate some other controller to switching sims.
I'm betting that a whole lot of use don't use the sims/recipes in the camera at all while shooting, and among those who do it is more likely that they pick a favorite and shoot with it, only rarely changing.
I must be an exception then. I shoot RAW plus JPEG, but most of the time use the JPEGs including editing the JPEGs after if needed. I switch frequently between a few favourite recipes and try to get as close to what I want as possible in camera. While I'm not averse to editing RAW I find if I haven't got a good JPEG then the RAW is not going to be that good either.
Erich6_ wrote:
To the OP: the responses here may be confusing because there are a lot of terms that sound alike but they mean different things.
Fujifilm “film simulations” are base camera profiles that are inspired by various Fuji films and have names like Velvia, Provia, Acros, etc. On all modern Fuji cameras you can select the profile you want, similar to loading a film in a camera, and shoot that way. If you shoot Jpeg, that profile is baked in the image. If you shoot RAW, the profile is loaded as default or you have to pick it depending on which software you use, but you can also pick others. ...Show more →
Good explanations of a topic that confuses nearly everyone at times.
One bit of clarification/extra context regarding raw files and simulations:
As you point out, with jpg images the changes due to the chosen simulation are “baked into” the jpg file and cannot be undone. When you shoot that way you are making a commitment to that interpretation of the photograph, since the the original non-simulation version of the photo no longer exists, and because further editing of the jpg file in post is rather limited.
However, when we select a simulation and shoot in raw mode, the underlying raw file data is not changed at all — it is exactly the same as what we’d get if we used no simulation at all. Instead, some data accompanying the image data in the file identifies the effect of the simulation and when we open the raw file in post it _may_ automatically apply those alternations to the interpretation of the raw file data. (Not all post-processing apps do this — some ignore the sim identification.)
This has several important effects (and, likely, advantages) over what happens with jpgs. First, you can disable the simulation or pick a different one in post when you work with the raw file. Second, all of the original image data from the raw file is retained, so you have far more flexibility to modify the file as necessary in post.
Even better, in the eyes of some, you don’t even have to select a sim on the camera at the time of exposure. You can simply shoot normal raw files, bring them into your post-processing environment (in most cases) and then select ANY of the applications versions of the simulations… and even more interpretations that come with the software.
Once again, it is raw for the win! (Except in some case, obviously)
gdanmitchell wrote:
Even better, in the eyes of some, you don’t even have to select a sim on the camera at the time of exposure. You can simply shoot normal raw files, bring them into your post-processing environment (in most cases) and then select ANY of the applications versions of the simulations… and even more interpretations that come with the software.
With a FujiFilm camera you always have to choose a Film Simulation - there is no concept of a normal raw file.
AZ Photo wrote: gdanmitchell wroteEven better, in the eyes of some, you don’t even have to select a sim on the camera at the time of exposure. You can simply shoot normal raw files, bring them into your post-processing environment (in most cases) and then select ANY of the applications versions of the simulations… and even more interpretations that come with the software.With a FujiFilm camera you always have to choose a Film Simulation - there is no concept of a normal raw file.
Well, sort of.
Technically, you are correct that there is not a "no sim" setting, but the Provia/Standard setting is more or less that. I simply leave my XT5 on that setting all the time. (I also zero out all the settings for things like in-camera sharpening, color corrections, and so forth.)
I'd disagree with the assertion that there is no "normal raw file." The raw file image data is unchanged no matter which sim you select. As some say, "raw is raw."*Your raw conversion app may (or in some cases may not) apply adjustments that mimic the selected sim, but underlying that in your raw file is still the original raw data, unaffected by the sim selection. (Raw file data is not changed by sim selection. The file carries some extra data about what sim was selected that can be interpreted by the conversion app and then may be applied to the default view of the raw conversion.)
- - -
*"Ras is raw" used to be a bit more true than today. I'm not sure where Fujifilm comes down on this, but today's raw files can technically be something other than straight off-the-sensor data, for example incorporating some NR.)