p.9 #1 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
I don't see that right sizing your manufacturing capacity as being the same as purposely withholding inventory from the market as creating scarcity in the same way.
You can pretty much always buy any current Leica camera or lens. Except of course limited production versions once they have reached their pre announced run size. There are no artificial wait lists like there are in other luxury marketing schemes like watches and handbags.
There is a huge difference between Leica's strategy and that of DeBeers and it's CSO organization. A few years ago DeBeers started manufacturing lab diamonds in an attempt to drive prices down to the point that other producers went bankrupt. That attemt failed badly. The CSO often formented unrest in non monopoly producer countries to inhibit production. Leica has never attempted any of these kinds of things.
p.9 #2 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
We are talking here about a different kind of artificial scarcity—specifically, one driven by price. Essentially, this means that while the demand is there, it is regulated "naturally" through a "special" pricing strategy. Why go to the trouble of producing higher volumes—and, thanks to the resulting lower production costs, enabling people to buy a Leica who would love to own one but simply can't afford it? We could do that right now. But we prefer to produce fewer units at exorbitant prices, which makes them all the more attractive to people who don't have to worry about money. It is a very simple calculation, and a common one for luxury goods. In other words: what do we care about the average photographer? Not a damn thing. We care about the return on investment. And ultimately, that is a perfectly legitimate and understandable strategy for a profit-oriented company—especially since everyone knows that the purchasing power and willingness to spend among the wealthy depend far less on the general state of the economy or market conditions.
p.9 #3 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
I have done four trips this past summer and used a M11 as a primary scenic/city/people camera while I use a Nikon Z8 with either a 100-400 or 600 mm when capturing critters. If I didn't see critters as a prospect that day I carried the M11 with varying lenses, mostly keeping toward the smaller end except on a few occasions with a noct lens. I really like the light weight and small form factor giving me 60 mp, I can do crisp detail with a 50 mm apo summicron or I can do vintage film look with LLL, or old formula leica like steel rim. I can go super light with colorskopers. I have done it all this summer. What can be done with a M11 is great, what it isn't good for is motion, fast motion, or long lenses. There nothing beats my Nikons, critters, or capturing the eclipse in Spain etc. When I need 10-20 fps, when I need fast focus and animal follows the Nikon cannot be beat and the Leica doesn't play that game well. When I use the Leica to its strength it is great. All this is a long way of saying it depends on what your travel is- would I use a M11 for a safari... no, would I use it visiting sites in Japan, absolutely, and did. every type of camera has a optimum use, if I was to carry a 6x9 or some large format film, I might only have a few shots a day, and it is likely they would be scenic, would I use that as a street camera, or tour camera, or animal camera, not a chance..........If you use a M11 to its strengths as a travel camera it will reward you, use it towards its weakness you will be disappointed.
p.9 #4 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
Nifty Fifty wrote:
We are talking here about a different kind of artificial scarcity—specifically, one driven by price. Essentially, this means that while the demand is there, it is regulated "naturally" through a "special" pricing strategy.
That's not scarcity - artificial or otherwise. It's exclusivity. Sure there would be more demand for the products if they were cheaper, but that doesn't mean they're scarce - just that actual demand is suppressed by price. As @1bwana1 said above, the availability is generally there for those who are prepared to pay. Compare to the use of actual scarcity as a strategy by say Rolex: demand for some of their models far exceeds supply even at the very high price they charge. They use non-price mechanisms to ration distribution. If you want, and have the money to pay for, a new Rolex Daytona, you'd still wait years and/or have a very good relationship with an authorised dealer (i.e. you've spend a lot of money with them).
p.9 #5 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
Matt White wrote:
That's not scarcity - artificial or otherwise. It's exclusivity. Sure there would be more demand for the products if they were cheaper, but that doesn't mean they're scarce - just that actual demand is suppressed by price. As @1bwana1@ said above, the availability is generally there for those who are prepared to pay. Compare to the use of actual scarcity as a strategy by say Rolex: demand for some of their models far exceeds supply even at the very high price they charge. They use non-price mechanisms to ration distribution. If you want, and have the money to pay for, a new Rolex Daytona, you'd still wait years and/or have a very good relationship with an authorised dealer (i.e. you've spend a lot of money with them).
Matt gets the difference. Understand that De Beers/CSO commonly bought diamonds from the free market to reduce supply and create artificial rarity. We don't see Leica buying Sony/Canon/Fuji cameras to reduce the number of cameras on the market do we. Saying De Beers failed monopoly and artificial rarity policies to Leica's luxury brand strategy is just ignorance of how things are structured and operate.
De Beers was not able to conduct business on US soil (many of its executives could not even visit the US without fear of arrest) for more than 50 years due to its artificial rarity, restraint of trade, price fixing, monopoly business practices. This didn't change until 2004 when it began losing control of the industry. It became so bad that Nicky Oppenheimer sold the family's stake in De Beers and exited the business in 2011. The coming collapse was well understood by then.
The US Government understands the difference in business model clearly. I don't recall an point in history (except perhaps in wartime for different reasons) that Leica was banned from conducting business in the U.S..
p.9 #6 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
1bwana1 wrote:
I don't see that right sizing your manufacturing capacity as being the same as purposely withholding inventory from the market as creating scarcity in the same way.
You can pretty much always buy any current Leica camera or lens. Except of course limited production versions once they have reached their pre announced run size. There are no artificial wait lists like there are in other luxury marketing schemes like watches and handbags.
I see that right sizing more as deliberately under sizing, as to not flood the market and consequently create scarcity...
Nothing wrong with that, it is the way all luxury companies work, just call it as it is though.
About waiting lists, I removed myself from Leica waiting lists after 10 months, respectfully I just wasn't willing to play Leica's game any longer.
p.9 #7 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
Nifty Fifty wrote:
We are talking here about a different kind of artificial scarcity—specifically, one driven by price. Essentially, this means that while the demand is there, it is regulated "naturally" through a "special" pricing strategy. Why go to the trouble of producing higher volumes—and, thanks to the resulting lower production costs, enabling people to buy a Leica who would love to own one but simply can't afford it? We could do that right now. But we prefer to produce fewer units at exorbitant prices, which makes them all the more attractive to people who don't have to worry about money. It is a very simple calculation, and a common one for luxury goods. In other words: what do we care about the average photographer? Not a damn thing. We care about the return on investment. And ultimately, that is a perfectly legitimate and understandable strategy for a profit-oriented company—especially since everyone knows that the purchasing power and willingness to spend among the wealthy depend far less on the general state of the economy or market conditions....Show more →
what for profit company doesn't seek to maximize return on investment, and what's your point that Leica doesn't care about "dam thing' about the average photographer? Are you suggesting the other camera companies are any different?
Ultimately in the capitalist model supply and demand are factors determining price, so I don't understand your point about Leica creating an artificial scarcity.
p.9 #9 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
1bwana1 wrote:
10 Months is a long time. What were you waiting for and during what time period?
It was the Summilux-SL 50mm released in September 2016. I put myself on a pre-order list in July 2016 and removed myself from the list in May 2017.
After that I switched Leica dealer (no more boutiques for me) and bought a few bodies through Ken Hansen who was wonderful to deal with. He unfortunately passed away in 2019.
p.9 #10 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
philip_pj wrote:
At some point, you have to question if what you are doing is actually 'photography'. The lack of affordable 'Ms' puts Leica in a niche similar to that of De Beers, if you know that story. That worked well - until now.
well, do you know the story? if you did, you would not put those two in the same paragraph.
p.9 #11 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
'Industry estimates and gear surveys place Leica's overall professional travel market share well under 1% to roughly 2%.'
If the M-RF cameras did the business, they would be more popular serious travel options. Too lacking in utility, too unreliable, too limiting in scope. It's sad. We need a mid-price M-mount EVF camera series by a company with greater more focus on real world usage.
p.9 #12 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
The allure of rangefinders is starting to wane for me. Doesnt mean I will give up on it completely but im now leaning towards the SL for the AF reliability. EV1 is out of the picture for me. Not a bad camera but I refuse to pay what they want for a stripped down M11. The EV1 should be at a price point that is realistic. maybe 5k. But, I digress. I feel your pain. I wrote about this and am strating to feel =different about the whole thing. Read the comments for updated thoughts
p.9 #13 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
Why not get a Visoflex 2 for those moments where you're shooting wide open or telephoto? Outside of the SL coming with a higher resolution EVF, it's such a different shooting feel than adding the Viso to your M11.
Jorge Torralba wrote:
The allure of rangefinders is starting to wane for me. Doesnt mean I will give up on it completely but im now leaning towards the SL for the AF reliability. EV1 is out of the picture for me. Not a bad camera but I refuse to pay what they want for a stripped down M11. The EV1 should be at a price point that is realistic. maybe 5k. But, I digress. I feel your pain. I wrote about this and am strating to feel =different about the whole thing. Read the comments for updated thoughts
p.9 #14 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
philip_pj wrote:
'Industry estimates and gear surveys place Leica's overall professional travel market share well under 1% to roughly 2%.'
If the M-RF cameras did the business, they would be more popular serious travel options. Too lacking in utility, too unreliable, too limiting in scope. It's sad. We need a mid-price M-mount EVF camera series by a company with greater more focus on real world usage.
So by your logic-
Ferrari isn't a great race car because its not that popular.
Knock off the non-sense Phillip. I travel 150K miles a year globally and take my M11-P with me everywhere. Its rock solid- Just because you don't have the funds or can't justify spending the money on one doesn't make them lacking in anything. Good lord man
p.9 #15 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
RustyRus wrote:
So by your logic-
Ferrari isn't a great race car because its not that popular.
Knock off the non-sense Phillip. I travel 150K miles a year globally and take my M11-P with me everywhere. Its rock solid- Just because you don't have the funds or can't justify spending the money on one doesn't make them lacking in anything.
I could not agree more. By that logic, smartphone is all we need because they represent 99% of the pictures shot daily today.
So by definition, real cameras are 1% of the market.
We could apply this not only to Ferraris but to everything: good food & wine, HiFi, computers. You just have the define the category so that your target is 1 to 2% of the market and explain why it is inferior then.
BTW, you can already buy a modern mirrorless with IBIS, focusing aids better than the EV1, cheaper than anything Leica, supporting AF lenses... And even giving you AF with M and other MF lenses.
You have the choice of the brand, resolution and camera size.
But we know they are not as popular as a digital M. In fact, most of those who use them here already have a least a M-10 or M-11.
So by applying philip_pj criteria, one can show that the solution he recommends is inferior. Just define the market slightly differently.
P.S: I have such a mirrorless solution. Like it a lot and just spent the last 3 weeks shooting street pictures in India with it and a M11.
I wonder why
p.9 #16 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
RomanMF wrote:
Why not get a Visoflex 2 for those moments where you're shooting wide open or telephoto? Outside of the SL coming with a higher resolution EVF, it's such a different shooting feel than adding the Viso to your M11.
I hear you. I have the visoflex 2 for my m11. But it just feels a little awkward on there. However shooting with the close focus 50 lux, and the voigtlander 28 1.5 the visoflex is a godsend.
I'm currently stocking up on my sl lenses and look forward to auto focus.
p.9 #17 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
The Viso 2 gets plenty of criticism for its size and sharp edges. The camera must be held in a awkward position, lower than how it is used in RF mode, where it jams the largest part of noses. It's pretty robust but adds ~100 grams. As any travel person will tell you, it will get caught on clothing, bags, bang on doors, etc.
Worth passing on - you might need some tape:
'They didn’t seal the diopter dial from the inner elements of the EVF, so it gets totally loaded with dust. Here is my EVF after only about 2-3 weeks of use, traveling around Tokyo and Japan with it almost permanently mounted to my camera – Yes, that dust is on the inside.'
p.9 #18 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
pmeheut wrote:
...
BTW, you can already buy a modern mirrorless with IBIS, focusing aids better than the EV1, cheaper than anything Leica, supporting AF lenses... And even giving you AF with M and other MF lenses.
You have the choice of the brand, resolution and camera size.
But we know they are not as popular as a digital M. In fact, most of those who use them here already have a least a M-10 or M-11.
...
How do we know that digital M is more popular than using manual focus lenses adapted (or native) on modern mirrorless cameras? In my experience in Japan there are a lot more people using adapted or native manual focus lenses on modern mirrorless cameras than Leica M11 or M10 users. I think it's partly because M11 and M10, new or used, are priced out of range for most hobbyists.
I also asked Gemini and got this response (it might be more focused on Japan market but seems accurate at least for Japan in my opinion), pointing to usage on modern mirrorless being much more popular overall: https://share.gemini.google/LOtB4nmNk5iy
Looking at manual focus lens sales popularity rankings at a popular Japanese price ranking site, new manual focus lenses for other mounts (various mirrorless mounts and F-mount) are also quite noticeably outselling M-mount lenses.
Maybe in some other markets M11 and M10 are selling more, and of course in Leica focused forums they'll be getting more attention.
p.9 #19 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
Juha Kannisto wrote:
How do we know that digital M is more popular than using manual focus lenses adapted (or native) on modern mirrorless cameras?
I was talking about M lenses and based this on what I read here and there but also what I see in the street when I travel around the world.
Leica M are rare but M lenses on a mirrorless? Almost inexistent.
In my experience in Japan there are a lot more people using adapted or native manual focus lenses on modern mirrorless cameras than Leica M11 or M10 users. I think it's partly because M11 and M10, new or used, are priced out of range for most hobbyists.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I also asked Gemini and got this response (it might be more focused on Japan market but seems accurate at least for Japan in my opinion), pointing to usage on modern mirrorless being much more popular overall: https://share.gemini.google/LOtB4nmNk5iy
Typical AI answer: no data so it "says things" (nothing against AI, this is my daily job).
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Looking at manual focus lens sales popularity rankings at a popular Japanese price ranking site, new manual focus lenses for other mounts (various mirrorless mounts and F-mount) are also quite noticeably outselling M-mount lenses.
My point exactly: if M-mount lenses were commonly used on mirrorless, they would be outsold.
p.9 #20 · Leica M11-P as a Travel Camera: A Love-Hate Experience
Leica is a small company with a market share in alignment with the exclusive, luxury, business model that it is operating under. What do the number of users have to do with this. The important thing is that it does have a loyal user base. It has a well respected heritage in the industry. Leica's products are generally very high quality, performing at the top of the industry in build quality and optically. Some of it's products set the industry benchmarks. Leica fills a viable niche in the camera industry.
From a financial perspective Leica is also very successful. It was bought in a distress situation by current management. It has been very profitable for them, and is now in process for at least a partial sale with a Billion Dollar plus valuation. How many of you armchair experts can say that about your enterprises? Not many I am guessing.
