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grandmas
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p.2 #1 · Find the subject


Basically what folks here are saying:

If I took a photo of a bear looking into the camera and filled the frame with the bear, folks here are suggesting the eyes are the subject of the image. I think the bear is the subject and the eyes are focal points.



Jul 01, 2026 at 03:27 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #2 · Find the subject


grandmas wrote:
Look, I would like for people to learn how to compose, it is very simple.

I am not good at writing or expressing myself or I would have put it in writing a long time ago.



This ^ seems a bit contradictory to me.



Although, I do think your comprehension of composition is attempting to be uber-simplistic, with your perpetually, incessant subject / focal points perspective.

Composition by its very definition can vary as much from a simple melody of "Mary had a little Lamb" to a great overture of Mozart. That is of course, within the auditory realm of presentation. The same range of simplicity to complex can be found in literature from Dick and Jane, or Dr. Seuss to Shakespeare. Ours is no different that the range of composition can be from something uber-simplistic to vastly more complex.

Your continued citing that people don't know how to compose ... and, to suggest that folks can't even follow something so simple ... something so simple that you can't put it in writing ... IDK, it kinda defies a lot of things, and in certain regard is very oxymoronic as your "wind" efforts have never facilitated others to adopt your "winded" perspective.

If by your own admission, after years of trying, you cannot articulate something simple ...

I'd suggest it's time to ... let it go, man.

Let it go.


“When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence.” — A.A.





Jul 02, 2026 at 11:38 PM
jimmuller
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p.2 #3 · Find the subject


RustyBug wrote:
Composition by its very definition can vary as much from a simple melody of "Mary had a little Lamb" to a great overture of Mozart.


From one of the classic Peanuts cartoons:

Lucy Van Pelt: Aren't the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud's formations. What do you think you see, Linus?

Linus Van Pelt: Well, those clouds up there look to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean. That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over there gives me the impression of the Stoning of Stephen. I can see the Apostle Paul standing there to one side.

Lucy Van Pelt: Uh huh. That's very good. What do you see in the clouds, Charlie Brown?

Charlie Brown: Well... I was going to say I saw a duckie and a horsie, but I changed my mind.

----

All I did was snap a quick pic of a bikie and a bridgie.



Jul 03, 2026 at 05:05 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #4 · Find the subject


Just a quick question to our AI friends, returned this:

Composition in a painting is the arrangement and organization of visual elements within the canvas. Good composition unites these components to create balance, guide the viewer’s eye, and clearly convey the artist's message.

It is generally broken down into visual elements and principles of organization.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Visual Elements
These are the fundamental building blocks used to construct the painting:

Line: Used to define shapes or act as "leading lines" to direct where the viewer looks.

Shape & Form: Areas defined by edges or dimension. Shape is 2D (flat), while Form
...Show more

Not unlike mixing spices in a recipe, the combinations that can be achieved are of a vast variety. In some regard, we may choose to harmonize the elements, while in other regard we may choose to juxtapose the elements. The arrangements that the creator of an image (painting / photograph / drawing / et al) ... not unlike that of a composer (notice the root of compose vs. composition) has a powerful ability to dictate to the viewer / listener / reader a variety of things, including cadence and mood ... far beyond the mere presence of information, alone.

In our beloved craft, our eyes are the means to our visual taste buds. The sensory experience(s) involved that develop in the mind are again, not unlike our effects we get from eating something hot, sour, sweet, bitter, cold, savory, tender, soft, hard, etc. The variant properties of the elements are put in combinations of composition to yield a command and control that elicits a response by the receiver.

Wherein information is a component of our beloved craft, the presentation of that image may go well beyond the writing style of a newspaper article. In writing we learn the basics of Dick and Jane, with regard to subject / verb / adjective. By the time we get to Shakespeare or Mozart or Renoir, we realize that their command and control of composition has expanded the "spice cabinet" far beyond salt and pepper.

Learning to cook with a full complement of spices, write with a full complement of words, capture / construct images with full complement of visual attributes ... it requires recognition that each of the elements can be utilized individually, or collectively, and the directional aspect (e.g. symmetrical vs. asymmetrical) are choices and decisions that are available to the creator. Where one is not consciously attending to their utilization, it is indeed possible to also use them in a contradictory or an incongruous manner, that diminishes the potential impact of the intended message. Sometimes understanding what NOT to do, can be as significant (or more) than, what TO do.

The list / explanation provided by our AI friends is not complete, nor exhaustive ... but, it is illustrative, and does carry similar principles that are taught in fundamentals of art / design / etc. Books and courses can be expansive on the subject ... and the time to develop a full understanding of them, is beyond the scope of merely saying it is "simple".

Trying to reduce / restrict it to something "simple" is (imo) a disservice to advancing an understanding of the concepts involved. That said, I do recognize that simple can make for a good starting point, and a good meal or good article, a good image ... can indeed be very simple. But, that does not make the mastery of composition a simple thing ... otherwise, everyone would be a master of it. And, if that were the case, then we'd have no basis for recognizing or appreciating the mastery of those who do have a mastery of it.




Jul 03, 2026 at 07:01 AM
jimmuller
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p.2 #5 · Find the subject


RustyBug wrote:
Just a quick question to our AI friends, returned this:

<Quoting AI>
Composition in a painting is the arrangement and organization of visual elements within the canvas. ...
...
Line: Used to define shapes or act as "leading lines" to direct where the viewer looks.
...
<Finished quoting AI>

Not unlike mixing spices in a recipe, the combinations that can be achieved are of a vast variety....


Whew!

I'm glad AI chose to tell me about lines and shapes and colors. Otherwise I might have gotten them confused!
I had no idea that "composition" meant putting elements together to, um, compose something.

Such wonderful ideas. This is the modern world we live in!

Is there an emoji for tongue-in-cheek?



Jul 03, 2026 at 07:24 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #6 · Find the subject


jimmuller wrote:
I had no idea that "composition" meant putting elements together to, um, compose something.





Jul 03, 2026 at 07:29 AM
grandmas
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p.2 #7 · Find the subject


RustyBug wrote:
This ^ seems a bit contradictory to me.

Although, I do think your comprehension of composition is attempting to be uber-simplistic, with your perpetually, incessant subject / focal points perspective.

Composition by its very definition can vary as much from a simple melody of "Mary had a little Lamb" to a great overture of Mozart. That is of course, within the auditory realm of presentation. The same range of simplicity to complex can be found in literature from Dick and Jane, or Dr. Seuss to Shakespeare. Ours is no different that the range of composition can be from something uber-simplistic to vastly
...Show more


I just checked the view count for this thread which is 452, and that is just the ones that are logged in, how many more we do not know. We do not know how many have benefited from my posts. What you and a couple of others here really do not like, is to hear a view that differs from yours. This is a critique forum, what we need is more views not less.

The word simple is a simple way of looking at a photo. The photo can be as complex or as simple as anyone wants to make it (both viewer and image maker). We are not all going to see the same story in a photo, but we should all be able see and know what the subject is in an image (unless the photo is an abstract).

I don’t think anyone benefited from your grouchy post other than other grouchy members.



Jul 03, 2026 at 01:27 PM
grandmas
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p.2 #8 · Find the subject


jimmuller wrote:
From one of the classic Peanuts cartoons:

Lucy Van Pelt: Aren't the clouds beautiful? They look like big balls of cotton. I could just lie here all day and watch them drift by. If you use your imagination, you can see lots of things in the cloud's formations. What do you think you see, Linus?

Linus Van Pelt: Well, those clouds up there look to me look like the map of the British Honduras on the Caribbean. That cloud up there looks a little like the profile of Thomas Eakins, the famous painter and sculptor. And that group of clouds over there
...Show more

I like this and it completely goes along with what I have been saying. Notice the stories are all different, but doesn't change the fact that they knew they were all looking at the same clouds.



Jul 03, 2026 at 01:31 PM
jimmuller
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p.2 #9 · Find the subject


grandmas wrote:
What you and a couple of others here really do not like, is to hear a view that differs from yours.


What I at least do not like is seeing responses that are pedantic.

I received a good answer to the implicit question I posed. (I said that before.) And I learned some other interesting things.

I knew what I was doing with that photo. As I said, it is complex and was not meant to be an abstraction. Understanding all of it requires thought, which I explained in a followup note.

If you want to quibble over word meanings then quibble quietly. To be told repeatedly that I didn't know what I was doing was an insult. Please let it go.



Jul 03, 2026 at 01:52 PM
 


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grandmas
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p.2 #10 · Find the subject


jimmuller wrote:
What I at least do not like is seeing responses that are pedantic.

I received a good answer to the implicit question I posed. (I said that before.) And I learned some other interesting things.

I knew what I was doing with that photo. As I said, it is complex and was not meant to be an abstraction. Understanding all of it requires thought, which I explained in a followup note.

If you want to quibble over word meanings then quibble quietly. To be told repeatedly that I didn't know what I was doing was an insult. Please let it go.



When I mentioned others not liking a different view, that post was an intended response to Rusty and not you. The word others should not have been used, I can now see how it was confusing.

Writing on the internet is hard, we either use too many words or not enough.

I have already told you that your image is ok, so maybe we can get passed that.

By the way we all get ho hum responses, but we never know how it may benefit someone else.

I did like the cartoon post story , thanks for sharing it




Jul 03, 2026 at 03:21 PM
Camperjim
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p.2 #11 · Find the subject


jimmuller wrote:
.........

For the sake of context this had to break some composition rules. Whether it works for anyone besides me is not clear.

In fact, I rarely think about supposed rules for composition but instead work intuitively. I have never studied art or composition or design or photography, so I wouldn't know some of the rules if they walked up and said hello. ........


There are reasons that people go to art schools and/or study composition. I try to avoid the idea of rules and instead consider principles and techniques to achieve specific intent and goals. Learning and studying can help us improve beyond just snapping photos.

Consider an experienced person tightening or loosening a bolt. They should understand how bolts and nuts are supposed to work. They for sure know righty/tighty and lefty/loosy. When it comes time to tighten or loosen a bolt, they just do it correctly without analysis.




Jul 06, 2026 at 05:36 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #12 · Find the subject


Camperjim wrote:
There are reasons that people go to art schools and/or study composition. I try to avoid the idea of rules and instead consider principles and techniques to achieve specific intent and goals. Learning and studying can help us improve beyond just snapping photos.

Consider an experienced person tightening or loosening a bolt. They should understand how bolts and nuts are supposed to work. They for sure know righty/tighty and lefty/loosy. When it comes time to tighten or loosen a bolt, they just do it correctly without analysis.



Hey Jim, been a while ... hope all is good.

Your bolt analogy is interesting. You can't possibly know the number of folks who "stop" at righty tight ... lefty loosy and think they are a good mechanic. A basic one, sure ... but there are additional aspects of consideration that range from thread count to torque, to pitch, to direction of pitch, material of construction to grade to tightening sequence pattern to torque sequence increments to mismatch (galling) in application. Many folks will tighten by feel, etc. ... which may / may not be "doing it correctly" without analysis. People have died (literally) over these kind of mistakes.

As a reliability engineer / maintenance engineer, I have decades of interactions with folks who "know" how to to tighten a bolt ... and yet, the dang bolt came loose despite how much they claimed to know what they were doing because they've been doing it for a long time. Sometimes the outcome has been minor. Other times, catastrophic.



The difference between having a common understanding vs. a deep understanding of something ... well, that lies in the details ... and the depth of understanding for them. Your point that the compositional tools are worthy of a deepening understanding is valid. The application for taking snapshots may not be uber-critical and we can improve. For a few folks their level of intuition is seemingly astute. For others, (+1) the deeper study can be valuable for further development.

So, yes a +1 for principles, etc. for aligning to intent.


BTW, good to hear from you again.



Jul 06, 2026 at 07:42 AM
Camperjim
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p.2 #13 · Find the subject


To continue with the analogy. A good mechanic knows which way to tighten or loosen. They would also know if they need to use a torque wrench, loctite, lock or other washers, etc. This comes from knowledge coupled with experience, not guessing or intuition.


Jul 06, 2026 at 07:55 AM
jimmuller
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p.2 #14 · Find the subject


I was tempted to respond to the bolt analogy. RustyBug pushed me over the edge.

It illustrates the intuition requirement as well as the need to get technical things right. But not all bolts have published specs. Some things require a careful hand and common sense about what can and cannot be done. I know people who I would not want anywhere near my cars or bicycles with a wrench in hand even though they have been cycling enthusiasts for decades and *think* they know how to do maintenance. You develop a calibrated wrench hand through experience, and when you snap off a bolt you curse and remember it. You learn when and how to test something you worked on. It requires you know when torquing is critical and when it isn't. (FWIW, I own three torque wrenches.)

The application to photography is that you absolutely need intuition There is no published spec, certainly not a firm one, for most composition decisions. Nothing says you absolutely must take a pic this way or that. The impressionist painters showed us that even focus or clarity can be sacrificed for the sake of effect. Intuition is the torque wrench of the mind that guides us to take interesting pictures.



Jul 06, 2026 at 11:47 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #15 · Find the subject


jimmuller wrote:
The impressionist painters showed us that even focus or clarity can be sacrificed for the sake of effect.


Agreed.

And, that's kinda the point folks are aspiring to make ... they understood the implications of the techniques relative to the effects.

Compositional choices are a plethora of such implications, both in singularity, but even more so in combinations. So, when a person is interested in achieving an effect (of one's choosing) ... we can take a step back and consider the potential implications that are available to impact toward that effect.

Reverse engineering, if you will. Not the same thing as trying to tell folks what to do, but rather to illuminate the cause / effect relationships, so they have it in their hip pocket for future (intuitive) use ... if they are so inclined (or not).




Just a quick question to our AI friends returned this. It is not meant to be exhaustive, nor idealistically perfect, but rather illustrative that the considerations are numerous. Granted, they are not 100% infallible, but as conceptual consideration, they can be some available levers for helping to achieve intent of effect.



1. Atmospheric Perspective (Depth & Spatial Mapping)
These variables dictate how the human brain calculates distance, proximity, and environmental volume inside a flat frame.

Warm Tones (Red/Yellow/Amber) = Close. Long light wavelengths physically focus slightly behind the retina, causing the brain to perceive warm objects as advancing forward.
Cool Tones (Blue/Cyan/Magenta) = Distant. Short light wavelengths focus slightly in front of the retina, causing cool tones to naturally recede into the background.
High Saturation = Close. Intense color purity signals that there is minimal air or dust blocking the object, pulling it straight to the foreground.
Low Saturation = Distant. Faded, washed-out hues mimic atmospheric haze, automatically pushing elements deep into the background.
High Value Contrast = Close. Crisp, stark separations between absolute highlights and deep shadows occur naturally when light hits an object up close.
Low Value Contrast = Distant. Compressed, grayed-out tonal ranges signal that atmospheric scattering has diffused the light, placing the elements far away.
Sharp, Tactile Textures = Close. Micro-details (like concrete grain or metal rivets) require optical proximity to resolve, serving as an immediate foreground anchor.
Soft, Diffuse Textures = Distant. Blurred, smoothed-out surfaces mimic the softening effect of distance, fog, or a shallow depth of field, pushing the eye past them.



2. Scale & Geometric Geometry (Size & Proportional Weight)
These variables control how the brain establishes structural relationships, hierarchy, and physical scale.

Large Object = Close. The object occupies a high percentage of the retinal field, instantly establishing proximity and dominance.
Small Object = Distant. The object mimics the natural shrinkage of perspective, serving as a scale bar to prove how massive the surrounding environment is.
Converging Lines = Rapid Acceleration (Go).
Parallel lines that narrow toward a point mimic the optical horizon, violently pulling the eye forward into a deep vanishing point.
Diverging Lines = Spatial Expansion. Lines that fan outward from a tight node create a feeling of sudden explosion, openness, and architectural release.
Horizontal Lines = Stability & Stasis (Stop). Perfectly level lines mirror the natural horizon, inducing a psychological response of calm, rest, and absolute permanence.
Vertical Lines = Power & Grandeur. Soaring vertical axes trigger feelings of monumental scale, height, and immense structural ambition.
Diagonal Lines = Dynamic Tension & Instability. Slicing across the frame, diagonals disrupt natural horizons, creating a feeling of active motion, weightlessness, or impending collapse.



3. Cognitive Biases & Visual Physics (Eye Movement Choreography)
These variables dictate the involuntary "Stops" and "Goes" of human eye movement, regardless of what physical object is in the frame.

Text/Wording = Absolute Optical Stop. The human brain is universally trained to decode symbols. If text is present anywhere in a frame—even if it is small or blurry—the eye will immediately stop to "read" it before processing anything else.
Human Shape/Silhouette = Immediate Focal Center. We are genetically programmed for facial and bodily recognition. The eye will instantly seek out a human figure in a vast landscape, treating it as the primary narrative anchor.
High-Luminosity Pockets = The Visual Target. The human eye is naturally phototropic—it hunts for light. The brightest point in an image will always act as a powerful gravitational drain for the viewer's attention.
Deep Shadow Fields (Monochromatic Noir) = Slower Visual Velocity. When shadows are deep and compressed, the brain must slow down the eye's scanning speed, forcing the viewer to linger on the image to decode the subtle, micro-textures hidden in the dark.
Abrupt Hinge Vertex = Spatial Trapping. When sharp lines intersect at a hard, geometric angle, it forms an optical corner that catches the eye's momentum, trapping the viewer inside that specific section of the frame.
Negative Space Expansion = Respiratory Breathing. Vast fields of empty sky or unencumbered black give the eye a place to rest, making the adjacent high-contrast structures look significantly louder and more deliberate.




Again, not meant to be exhaustive (nor perfectly aligned with my training, albeit ballpark) ... but, illustrative that when folks deconstruct / reverse engineer toward the potential for intent of effect, it isn't them telling folks what to do, but applying an understanding of the principles as noted above (or similar) from their training and experience of understanding.

I've often mentioned a need for developing an exhaustive list ... and never fully developed one. That was before AI, hmmm, might be time to return to that potential endeavor as a reference resource.



BTW, as a example of this in fashion, we have the deep V-Plunge neckline in a woman's dress. Compare that to the horizontal neckline of an A line dress for a young girl. One set of lines, says "Go here". The other presents a line that says "Stop. Do not proceed. Return to the other direction (i.e. up to the face)".

So, when we want to induce movement ... faster, slower, directional, stop, etc. ... our understanding of compositional elements are available to us, to help us decide what we might utilize to aid the plight of our intended message to our viewer(s) ... whether that be an audience of one (for oneself), or for others (public appeal) may vary, but the influence of the tools / techniques remain available for consideration of our compositional choices / decisions. There's more ... but, hopefully you get the gist.


The masters ... understood these things long before AI began regurgitating them.

I'm sure there are a zillion resources available for a deeper study / understanding. Simple search returned this as but ONE (of many).

https://www.masteroilpainting.com/31-composition-concepts-painting/


HTH




Jul 06, 2026 at 09:01 PM
Camperjim
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p.2 #16 · Find the subject


With AI the responses you get are very dependent on the specific AI engine and the wording of your questions. AI can often take us into the depths of thought on a specific topic. The RustyBug-AI list above is just a sampling of the power of AI.

One of my main "composition" interests is visual rhythm and how visual rhythm relates to our body rhythms and perception. This gets into some of the depths related to our visual likes and preferences. If you are interested, I recommend starting the AI dialog with a couple of simple questions; such as:
How do visual rhythms reflect our body rhythms
How are visual rhythms used in design, painting and photography
How do visual artists use biorhythms as a part of creative expression
How does (my favorite visual artist) Georgia O'Keeffe use visual rhythms in her abstract works

Ask AI some of these questions and follow with your own questions brought up by the reponses. I can guarantee you will find that "composition" is way more involved than what we think we know.

As photographers, we typically do not make compositions. We find them. What we find has a lot to do with our individual personalities, preferences, styles, interests and artistic goals and vision. Knowledge and experience can help to form those traits and also can show us ways to change and improve our photography. The subconscious brain has amazing powers. It can take that collection of knowledge and experience and turn it into "intuition". That helps when it comes to finding, composing and shooting within a few seconds.




Jul 07, 2026 at 05:26 AM
Camperjim
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p.2 #17 · Find the subject


I took a look at the citation on composition that RustyBug posted. It is a nice summary of some concepts. I especially liked this quote:

Photographer Ian Plant wrote “Composition brings together everything…it unifies beat, rhythm and rhyme in a poem; timbre, melody, harmony, tempo and dynamics in a symphony, and subject, mood, light and moment in a photograph (or painting) – and somehow makes them greater in whole than the sum of their parts. Composition creates a synergy which elevates art above mere expression, it can transform even the vulgar into the sublime.”

Note some of the words he uses: beat, rhythm, timbre, melody.

Composition is more than some techniques or rules. It is how we move beyond the technical to achieve the artistic.



Jul 07, 2026 at 05:44 AM
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