p.2 #1 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
airfrogusmc wrote:
It's lasted for decades. How long did it take for them to put a meter in an M. They have resisted auto focus and other things the other makes moved to decades ago. The reason M is doing well still is they are the only option that is completely different from herd. When that changes and they try to make the M like all the others then that might cause a lot of folks to just buy what's already out there for a lot less. With the M 11 and rumors of what the M 12 might be I'll just stick with the M 10s. I'm not the only one that feels this way. ...Show more →
I understand. but they can't make money if people stick with M10
If they stop or can't moving forward on M, well, no wonder Blackstone want to sell and cash it now.
Leica had chance on digital MF but after 007, there is no innovation or meaningful work what so ever on S system.
p.2 #2 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
SlowDriver wrote:
+1. Leica put the S system on life support for probably 6-8 years till it was discontinued in 2023 and now we are again 3 years later.
In the meanwhile Hasselblad and Fuji went full forcce ahead for about a decade.
So, was there any other logical conclusion? No, there wasn't, but Leica already knew that since a very long time as well...
The way they do business is pathetic. I would have supported them that they introduced watch, limit edition camera lens, rebadge Hisense Projector with 3X price tag or rebadge Panasonic, sigma glass 2X price or put brand name on Xiaomi or Huawei if they can use those money put into R&D to introduce some really nice, niche, surprising LEICA products.
Legacy, sentiment, nostalgia can only get Leica this far, don't abuse the brand name and try to get quick easy money here and there, do some real work to deserve the brand and legacy.
p.2 #3 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
zhangyue wrote:
I predicted this after seen sub 8K Hasselblad X2Dii. There is no business case for S anymore.
Leica have been choosing easy path for past 10 years. Anything requires vision or tech, they just failed miserably. s MF mirrorless is 5 to 8 years late and then they just cancel it. SL line is just rebadge sigma, Panasonic glasses in past few years. Summicron SL focus slow, laud and big heavy for their speed. SL3 is so underwhelming compare to brilliant SL2 years ago. These sound harsh but that is true IMHO.
They are not looking good TBH. I don’t see anything sparkling other than maybe Q. There is only M left and Leica is selling its legacy and brand name, how long that can last? ...Show more →
I would very much like to disagree with your sentiments, but I’m very sorry to say that I can’t. Sadly, the question you pose is a valid one. I gain a huge amount of enjoyment from my three M cameras — they and the lenses I have are a delight to use — but two of the three cameras were bought used (one of them is older than me), and I find it hard to envisage why I should need to buy a new Leica camera in the foreseeable future.
The reason I say this is that I see no great likelihood that Leica will produce an innovation in the M range that will enable me to do something that I can’t currently do or can’t already do, probably better, with other brands. Cameras give a lot of pleasure but, ultimately, they are tools, not works of art or jewellery. (I have no strong desire for IBIS, although I can understand that many would like it. Nor do I need more than 60mp for full frame.)
It is this apparent lack of innovation, coupled with questionable customer service and well known quality problems that makes me slightly fearful for Leica’s future. The original Monochrom was bold and excellent. What has there been since? It begins to feel reminiscent of Hasselblad 10-15 years ago (although we haven’t yet seen a rebadged camera with a wooden grip ….). I would be very happy to be wrong and would be delighted if Leica continue to thrive. Am I being too pessimistic? Perhaps there is a perfectly viable existence as a supplier of luxury goods, diversifying away from their core products (Porsche, after all, now make more revenue from SUVs than 911s). But I don’t think it’s the company of Leitz, Barnack and Mandler. It may simply be that those days are gone.
p.2 #4 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
Andrew CD wrote:
...I don’t think it’s the company of Leitz, Barnack and Mandler. It may simply be that those days are gone.
One thing that strikes me when I watch a few interviews of Karbe, Kauffman and so on, is this: these are old guys, living in a world of tailored suits and nostalgia. They would fit in a room of people running an old winery, a luxury mechnical watch maker or some niche leather goods manufacturer. Plenty of money to be had there for sure but the world of "craftsmanship" and "nostalgia" will only take you that far in the tech world.
Edit:
Thinking about it...my comment about "an old winery" is probably not right, there is plenty of innovation in wine making techniques nowadays.
p.2 #7 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
zhangyue wrote:
I understand. but they can't make money if people stick with M10
If they stop or can't moving forward on M, well, no wonder Blackstone want to sell and cash it now.
Leica had chance on digital MF but after 007, there is no innovation or meaningful work what so ever on S system.
But my point is they have been making money by keeping it simple and real. One of the reason I have bought Leica digital is they are a true rangefinder and they do not have all the stuff packed on them that all the others have. A simple tool that doesn't automate and complicate. And if they take try to become what everyone else is instead of being what they are and have been then why spend the $$$ on Leica digital M when that already exists. Make Q's or SLs or M EV what ever but leave the digital M alone so I still have a real choice.
p.2 #8 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
airfrogusmc wrote:
But my point is they have been making money by keeping it simple and real. One of the reason I have bought Leica digital is they are a true rangefinder and they do not have all the stuff packed on them that all the others have. A simple tool that doesn't automate and complicate. And if they take try to become what everyone else is instead of being what they are and have been then why spend the $$$ on Leica digital M when that already exists. Make Q's or SLs or M EV what ever but leave the digital M alone so I still have a real choice. ...Show more →
No argument there. I think I’m fine with the M11-P as it is, as long as there are no more changes. I can’t really blame Leica much, because there’s honestly nothing “special” to criticize about the camera itself.
However, as long as it remains a digital camera company, it has to keep moving forward. Leica could probably survive just selling the MP forever — maybe even at $20K each — if that were enough to keep the business alive. And actually, I respect that mindset. Keeping Leica pure, cool, and premium has its own beauty.
What I don’t like is the way they do business now: putting the Leica brand name everywhere just to grab some quick money.
That’s what will hurt them in the long run. The way they operate risks pushing away true Leica lovers and photographers. Maybe I’m wrong, and honestly, I’d be happy to be wrong.
I’ve been using the Fuji GFX100RF over the last year. I’m not really a 28mm guy, and I haven’t had enough time to fully master the focal length. But the more I use it, the more I feel how much effort Fuji poured into this little thing. That’s what I call a love of photography.
So many thoughtful details. So many little features built in just to make photography fun again for a middle-aged man like me. That’s the kind of product I’m happy to hand my hard-earned cash over for.
Flaws? Compromises? Trade-offs? Sure. But it’s made with passion and full of character.
What a camera.
I bet many Hasselblad users feel the same way. Customers are honest — if you treat them seriously, you get rewarded. If you treat them like fools, then you are the fool.
p.2 #9 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
airfrogusmc wrote:
But my point is they have been making money by keeping it simple and real. One of the reason I have bought Leica digital is they are a true rangefinder and they do not have all the stuff packed on them that all the others have. A simple tool that doesn't automate and complicate. And if they take try to become what everyone else is instead of being what they are and have been then why spend the $$$ on Leica digital M when that already exists. Make Q's or SLs or M EV what ever but leave the digital M alone so I still have a real choice. ...Show more →
I think, though, there are two kinds of simplicity. There is the simplicity of the machine, which is where the M excels, and the simplicity of the exercise. The latter is more complicated as a notion. For example, I prefer my Canon R5 for portraits in the studio, because its excellent eye AF allows me to care about composition without having to bother with focus, which makes the experience simpler.
p.2 #11 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
zhangyue wrote:
No argument there. I think I’m fine with the M11-P as it is, as long as there are no more changes. I can’t really blame Leica much, because there’s honestly nothing “special” to criticize about the camera itself.
However, as long as it remains a digital camera company, it has to keep moving forward. Leica could probably survive just selling the MP forever — maybe even at $20K each — if that were enough to keep the business alive. And actually, I respect that mindset. Keeping Leica pure, cool, and premium has its own beauty.
What I don’t like is the way they do business now: putting the Leica brand name everywhere just to grab some quick money.
That’s what will hurt them in the long run. The way they operate risks pushing away true Leica lovers and photographers. Maybe I’m wrong, and honestly, I’d be happy to be wrong.
I’ve been using the Fuji GFX100RF over the last year. I’m not really a 28mm guy, and I haven’t had enough time to fully master the focal length. But the more I use it, the more I feel how much effort Fuji poured into this little thing. That’s what I call a love of photography.
So many thoughtful details. So many little features built in just to make photography fun again for a middle-aged man like me. That’s the kind of product I’m happy to hand my hard-earned cash over for.
Flaws? Compromises? Trade-offs? Sure. But it’s made with passion and full of character.
What a camera.
I bet many Hasselblad users feel the same way. Customers are honest — if you treat them seriously, you get rewarded. If you treat them like fools, then you are the fool....Show more →
As long as that money grab keeps them making camera's like the Mono and the M-D or a fully manual meter-less film camera then grab away Leica.
p.2 #12 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
I propose that Leica completely abandon technical development in favor of preserving tradition, shorten model cycles to one year, and make the price—tied directly to the respective model designation—the sole innovation. M12 = $12,000, M13 = $13,000, and so on. If need be, they could certainly skip a number every now and then. I believe this would be the most elegant solution for both sides.
p.2 #13 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
A lot of this reminds me of the stereo wars of the mid to late 1970s. Companies need to keep creating something to keep selling the public on the newer more ________ means better. When in fact it might not be better just newer.
I remember when I shot weddings a few decades ago. This happened in the late 80s or very early 90s. I shot with 500 C/Ms and I bumped into a guy that had the latest Canon. IIRC it was the EOS-1. He looked at me and said I can't believe you aren't shooting with a pro camera. I just laughed to myself and said to him, yeah I gotta get me one of those. Ha ha....
When does the tech stop making things better and is just created to make the company more $$$$? To make good photographs all of the stuff out there now even some iphones are capable of capturing what we are seeing. The important part as Haas once said is "you have to see"
They (the companies keep us on what I refer to is the gadget go round. And it's been around since cameras and accessories have been made.
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it."-Edward Weston
I think Leica to keep being as successful as they have been is not to forget what brought them to the dance and who that customer is. They can make whatever else they want to make but they should keep the flagship intact and change what only makes sense (like sensor tech which is pretty much there now). It it aint broke and all that. Especially if it is the only game in town. True digital rangefinder.
I think a lot of these other ventures like medium format is something many other makers do and have been doing really well and as I said before is I were to go that route it probably be Hasselblad or Phase.
But the M is one of a kind. And is you want that kind of camera nd shooting experince there is only one place to go. Not so much with all the others. Lotsa competition there.
p.2 #14 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
airfrogusmc wrote:
....
I think Leica to keep being as successful as they have been is not to forget what brought them to the dance and who that customer is. They can make whatever else they want to make but they should keep the flagship intact and change what only makes sense (like sensor tech which is pretty much there now). It it aint broke and all that. Especially if it is the only game in town. True digital rangefinder.
I think a lot of these other ventures like medium format is something many other makers do and have been doing really well and as I said before is I were to go that route it probably be Hasselblad or Phase.
But the M is one of a kind. And is you want that kind of camera nd shooting experince there is only one place to go. Not so much with all the others. Lotsa competition there.
I agree with much, probably most, of what you and @zhangyue have been saying. In particular, I share the desire for the M to remain a true rangefinder. But that desire may be at odds with the need for Leica to maintain profitability and, ideally, to grow.
I have taken the liberty of quoting part of your last post and highlighted one phrase. For me, this is one of the key questions: who are Leica's most important customers? I have no idea although I rather suspect that those of us who want a simple, true rangefinder (as opposed to those who desire additional features that might move it away from that purity, and as opposed to those who really don't care) are a minority. Possibly quite a small one. It may well be that the M cameras are Leica's most profitable products, per unit, but might very well not be the ones that generate most total revenue or profit (I mentioned what is, to me, an obvious analogy in my earlier post, above). In other words, perhaps people who don't give a fig about true rangefinders are far more important to Leica?
Indeed, I am a pretty poor customer. Almost invariably, I keep cameras (and computers, and 'phones) for many years. I would only replace my Sony A1 for a model that has global shutter and materially better autofocus for BIF. And I don't envisage replacing my M11 until it wears out (although I might succumb to temptation and buy an M11M). In general, I will only replace a device if its replacement will enable me to do something significantly more or different that I wish to be able to do (or, occasionally, might buy something as an indulgence). So my next camera purchase might well be a Hasselblad, most probably an X2D II or, just possibly, a 501CM ....
Unfortunately, although, as I said a day or two, I find my Leica cameras and lenses a delight to use, and they give me a lot of pleasure, I see little signs that Leica are innovating or taking risks in anything like the way that they used to, perhaps most recently with the Monochrom.
p.2 #15 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
Where exactly does this panic come from—the fear that Leica might do away with the rangefinder? I simply cannot, for the life of me, imagine that they would be so foolish. Instead, they ought to be urgently focusing their efforts on developing a decent EVF for the M EV—a camera which, in its current state, I personally consider to be a rather embarrassing failure, even if one disregards its completely exorbitant price tag. In the past, whenever Leica was asked about an EVF, their standard response was that they would not offer such a feature until they had found a focusing aid that truly lived up to the quintessential Leica user experience. Yet today, Kaufmann portrays the EVF currently installed—which already felt dated the moment it was launched—as an "innovation" that Leica courageously pushed through against the wishes of its own customer base, claiming that otherwise, everything would have remained exactly the same for all eternity. In reality, however, one could clearly read in online forums for years that many users were longing for an EVF variant, and hopes ran high that Leica would equip a strictly manual-focus camera like the M with a truly outstanding EVF—one that would be truly worthy of the M name. But of course: they would rather simply drop in an off-the-shelf component, lower the price ever so slightly, and thereby generate a tidy profit margin with minimal effort or risk. And then, when they finally do release a better EVF down the line, they can hike the price up significantly once again. The buyers of the M EV1 will, with absolute certainty, be more than happy to purchase the improved model as well; after all, everyone knows the old adage: What’s better than someone who buys a new digital M? That’s right! Someone who buys two new digital Ms, one right after the other.😄
p.2 #16 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
No panic here. But why make a Fuji? That's already made and at a lower price point. Like I've already said I love my M 10s and especially my M 10 Mono. Nothing the M 11 or M 12 will offer that will change that. And as you see once I find something that fits with the way I see and work I stay with it. I had my 500C/Ms forever. No need to upgrade. I still have my Canon F-1s.
p.2 #17 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
Whatever they were planning, Fuji and Hasselblad would have been selling the next generation of digital MF before the Leica came to market and what would have been unique about the Leica, other than the high price?
p.2 #18 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
airfrogusmc wrote:
No panic here. But why make a Fuji? That's already made and at a lower price point. Like I've already said I love my M 10s and especially my M 10 Mono. Nothing the M 11 or M 12 will offer that will change that. And as you see once I find something that fits with the way I see and work I stay with it. I had my 500C/Ms forever. No need to upgrade. I still have my Canon F-1s.
Precisely! That’s an entirely valid question. Nothing terribly innovative or groundbreaking in that.
When I read @KLaban’s post, below, yesterday, my immediate reaction was: aside from “Leica”, I could buy one of those today.
(Although it depends on one’s definition of “truly compact”; smaller than an A7CR? And, granted, the Leica’s user experience and pleasure of using would be superior, just as Hasselblad’s is to Fuji’s. I suppose the GFX100RF doesn’t really count as compact, though, although it was a bold and interesting move by Fuji …. )
KLaban wrote:
The market for a new Leica medium format camera is long gone.
The only thing that could lead me into temptation would be a truly compact, Leica, full frame, AF, EVF, ILC, camera with IBIS.
I imagine my wallet is safe ;-)
Wait until it’s a hybrid viewfinder …. (although I don’t think the M13 will be AF …. )
p.2 #19 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
airfrogusmc wrote:
No panic here. But why make a Fuji? That's already made and at a lower price point. Like I've already said I love my M 10s and especially my M 10 Mono. Nothing the M 11 or M 12 will offer that will change that. And as you see once I find something that fits with the way I see and work I stay with it. I had my 500C/Ms forever. No need to upgrade. I still have my Canon F-1s.
I can fully understand that.
p.2 #20 · Leica Medium Format Camera Project Is No More…
Andrew CD wrote:
Precisely! That’s an entirely valid question. Nothing terribly innovative or groundbreaking in that.
When I read @KLaban@’s post, below, yesterday, my immediate reaction was: aside from “Leica”, I could buy one of those today.
(Although it depends on one’s definition of “truly compact”; smaller than an A7CR? And, granted, the Leica’s user experience and pleasure of using would be superior, just as Hasselblad’s is to Fuji’s. I suppose the GFX100RF doesn’t really count as compact, though, although it was a bold and interesting move by Fuji …. )
Wait until it’s a hybrid viewfinder …. (although I don’t think the M13 will be AF …. )...Show more →
Whenever I pick up a Sony camera all I want to do is put it down again. Probably my bad.
I would have thought given Leica's history, if anyone can build a truly compact, full frame, AF, EVF, ILC, camera with IBIS then Leica could and should.
(although I don’t think the M13 will be AF …. 
)