panos.v wrote:
There's a very easy number. It is what the X2D costs.
Hasselblad can make a camera with
- a much more expensive sensor
- with a bigger screen (ie more expensive)
- with an EVF (and yes ok that's cheaper than a rangefinder but surely that R&D paid itself 50 years ago and they should be able to do it reasonably cheap)
- with a more firmware to deal with the EVF, AF and all that
- more or less the same ethos and attention to construction and detail and tactile experience as Leica
- has the same (if not more significant) heritage than Leica
They make that camera in Sweden which has similar cost of living as Germany. They sell fewer of those cameras, ie the R&D cost needs to be spread over fewer units (ie higher). That camera costs 20% less than the M11P. Leica is saying that the cost of the rangefinder is the extra cost of all the above PLUS 20%? Or is the extra cost in the QC department?
I guess Leica says that the rangefinder costs £1200 (EV1 vs M11?). I find that hard to believe. Even accounting for that, a "rangefinder X2D" is still cheaper, despite being just as well made and being medium format with AF. The X2D is £400 cheaper than the EV1 today.
Then again, this is like arguing why a Hermes Birkin bag costs what it costs vs the priciest Mulberry or Bottega Veneta bag. It just does. People buy it. ...Show more →
The Hasselblad is a comparative bargain but for many photographers here would not be an alternative M purchase.
panos.v wrote:
There's a very easy number. It is what the X2D costs.
Hasselblad can make a camera with
- a much more expensive sensor
- with a bigger screen (ie more expensive)
- with an EVF (and yes ok that's cheaper than a rangefinder but surely that R&D paid itself 50 years ago and they should be able to do it reasonably cheap)
- with a more firmware to deal with the EVF, AF and all that
- more or less the same ethos and attention to construction and detail and tactile experience as Leica
- has the same (if not more significant) heritage than Leica
They make that camera in Sweden which has similar cost of living as Germany. They sell fewer of those cameras, ie the R&D cost needs to be spread over fewer units (ie higher). That camera costs 20% less than the M11P. Leica is saying that the cost of the rangefinder is the extra cost of all the above PLUS 20%? Or is the extra cost in the QC department?
I guess Leica says that the rangefinder costs £1200 (EV1 vs M11?). I find that hard to believe. Even accounting for that, a "rangefinder X2D" is still cheaper, despite being just as well made and being medium format with AF. The X2D is £400 cheaper than the EV1 today.
Then again, this is like arguing why a Hermes Birkin bag costs what it costs vs the priciest Mulberry or Bottega Veneta bag. It just does. People buy it. ...Show more →
I think the SL3 is a closer comparison to the X2D than the M on every level. On that basis Leica is looking to be spot on.
1bwana1 wrote:
I think the SL3 is a closer comparison to the X2D than the M on every level. On that basis Leica is looking to be spot on.
Yes, which leads us to the question, why is the M so much more expensive than the SL3? Or how about this, why is the EV1 £1k more expensive than the SL3? They are both mirrorless cameras, in fact you could argue the EV1 has fewer features and lesser hardware in it. We all know the answer to this!
Anyway, the price of everything is what people will pay for it, clearly people are paying for it so Leica keeps charging it.
stgrove wrote:
From my experience, no they're not.
Both the X2D and the SL3 are gripped, mirrorless cameras, with high resolution sensors, EVFs, and autofocus, and weather sealing. How is the M optical range finder camera, with only manual focus, no weather sealing, and small unwrapped form factor a better comparison to the X2D?
Since this was said in public by Leica leadership here in London in public (not formally announced) in conversation I feel I can write this.
As I previously predicted we will not see the in house Leica designed sensor in the M12. It will come in 4 or 5 years in the next generation.
When it does come it will be a very fast sensor. The goal of this is to have an electronic shutter. The reason for this is to make room inside the camera for other features. It wasn't said specifically but I beleive that this is to make room for the number one requested new feature IBIS.
All of this is directly from the horses mouth, so speculation about these things shouldn't be needed going forward.
There was also a very interesting statement made as to why Leica is find it necessary to find a new sensor provider. I will post about this later, but it should remove some myths regarding some other brands..
1bwana1 wrote:
Since this was said in public by Leica leadership here in London in public (not formally announced) in conversation I feel I can write this.
As I previously predicted we will not see the in house Leica designed sensor in the M12. It will come in 4 or 5 years in the next generation.
When it does come it will be a very fast sensor. The goal of this is to have an electronic shutter. The reason for this is to make room inside the camera for other features. It wasn't said specifically but I beleive that this is to make room for the number one requested new feature IBIS.
All of this is directly from the horses mouth, so speculation about these things shouldn't be needed going forward.
There was also a very interesting statement made as to why Leica is find it necessary to find a new sensor provider. I will post about this later, but it should remove some myths regarding some other brands.....Show more →
Fascinating. Thanks for posting.
It was never plausible that an in house (joint venture) sensor would make it into the M12. I wonder if it will have something like the sensor that Sony have put in the A7R VI? I also wonder, though, whether the fact that Leica have resorted to a JV for the very fast (or even global shutter) sensor that they need implies that Sony either couldn’t or wouldn’t supply one quickly enough. It may, of course, simply be that Leica wish to have more control.
It does, by contrast, seem entirely plausible that you are right about the intention to implement IBIS. I wonder whether a majority of potential M13 buyers would be pleased about that? My guess is that they probably would be. I’d be ambivalent at best; I would not regard IBIS, on its own, as a sufficient reason to upgrade. Then again, given that I am entirely happy with my MP and M11, I’m not sure what would be (perhaps a hybrid digital / film rangefinder? )
The M12 is currently scheduled for release in February 2027. It has been delayed 9 Months because of processor not sensor. Sony is refusing to sell any outside camera makers processors. The Fujitsu processors that everyone has been using is also somehow a problem. The camera makers have been trying to port over to a Qualcom processor. So far without success by anyone.
The M12 name is owned by another company in some important jurisdictions.
Since Leica currently has a release schedule for the next generation M, we must assume the already have the spec locked in. It is being early phase tested already. But I don't know the specs or the hardware. Only that it will still have a Sony sensor. I am thinking it will be an in incremental release. The big changes happening in the following release in 4 or 5 years from now.
1bwana1 wrote:
As I previously predicted we will not see the in house Leica designed sensor in the M12. It will come in 4 or 5 years in the next generation.
It's much more likely that Leica will be sold. Now is too good a time to sell.
Ne314satel wrote:
It's much more likely that Leica will be sold. Now is too good a time to sell.
I can say with absolute confidence that will not happen. I spent considerable time with Dr Kaufman and his Wife over the past few days discussing this amount other things. My impression is that if the current deal somehow doesn't close the Kaufmann family may up buying 100% agian. The have a succession plan for the next two generations of their family.
stgrove wrote:
Didn't mean to exaggerate about my house. This is actually mine now that I upgraded from the B&W one in post P4#6.
Fortunately, I have not unwisely upgraded my house to colour. The main problem is that they normally keep the outer door locked, but I do manage to sneak out from time to time.
(With apologies for going very slightly off topic. The thread was already a bit derailed, though.)
1bwana1 wrote:
Since this was said in public by Leica leadership here in London in public (not formally announced) in conversation I feel I can write this.
As I previously predicted we will not see the in house Leica designed sensor in the M12. It will come in 4 or 5 years in the next generation.
When it does come it will be a very fast sensor. The goal of this is to have an electronic shutter. The reason for this is to make room inside the camera for other features. It wasn't said specifically but I beleive that this is to make room for the number one requested new feature IBIS.
All of this is directly from the horses mouth, so speculation about these things shouldn't be needed going forward.
There was also a very interesting statement made as to why Leica is find it necessary to find a new sensor provider. I will post about this later, but it should remove some myths regarding some other brands.....Show more →
I believe you were told this, but that doesn’t mean it will pan out like that. I was once told by a senior camera company exec that they would launch a fixed lens medium-format camera within the next six months and that camera never saw the light of day.
