--- Update: a theory that it might be the filters, back next weekend and I'll go testing and report back. Or if I see it with these different filters I have with me now.
Original post:
How are folks dealing with the moire?
I see it so often, across a wide range of lenses, often with water but also buildings and just appearing randomly sometimes and not insignificantly.
Using the defringe tool robs colour in other parts of the frame and still doesn't remove it entirely.
I've seen raw shots from mobile phones that also have it, but the processed JPGs from the camera will make it imperceptible.
I've found the "remove CA" option in lightroom to do almost nothing for my own shots.
Is that really moire? I wonder it is isn't a kind of CA. Moire happens when the small (= in focus) objects interfere with the sensor resolution ability. Here in this image nothing is sharp.
It was possible to remove using the Moire reduction tool in Adobe Camera Raw, quick enough but take it easy around the birds.
Yogifi wrote:
It's been getting on my nerves more and moire.
Well played .
Seriously though, try a different RAW processor maybe?
And I second @Jonas B@, as I don't think I've seen moire like this in my pictures.
Maybe it's specific to some AA filter used in your camera?
I know there is always discussion whether A7IV / A7c has an AA filter or not...
Jonas B wrote:
Is that really moire? I wonder it is isn't a kind of CA. Moire happens when the small (= in focus) objects interfere with the sensor resolution ability. Here in this image nothing is sharp.
It was possible to remove using the Moire reduction tool in Adobe Camera Raw, quick enough but take it easy around the birds.
I'm not 1000% certain tbh. I do see the same thing with the APO-lanthar. When you zoom in you see it's lots of multicoloured pixels too but the yellow bands are the most common.
I know the traditional moire is like an interference pattern on clothes but I think this is a type of moire too where you see predominately yellow banding.
I tried the moire reduction tool with a brush and it does a pretty good job at the multi-coloured sections but not the yellow bands - it adds more yellow into the area instead.
Yogifi wrote:
I'm not 1000% certain tbh. I do see the same thing with the APO-lanthar. When you zoom in you see it's lots of multicoloured pixels too but the yellow bands are the most common.
[image]
I know the traditional moire is like an interference pattern on clothes but I think this is a type of moire too where you see predominately yellow banding.
I tried the moire reduction tool with a brush and it does a pretty good job at the multi-coloured sections but not the yellow bands - it adds more yellow into the area instead.
I see what you mean. Well, whatever it it's ugly and disturbing. I haven't run into this problem. at least not the way it manifested itself here. With lenses giving us CA typical when shooting a fountain desaturation usually helps. In this case it may make the water look strange. The second image is dropped, right? Can you post a small version of the uncropped image?
Seriously though, try a different RAW processor maybe?
And I second @Jonas B@@, as I don't think I've seen moire like this in my pictures.
Maybe it's specific to some AA filter used in your camera?
I know there is always discussion whether A7IV / A7c has an AA filter or not...
I can try with a demo version Capture 1 when I get back but I suspect it's going to be the same thing.. I remember seeing it in Juha's photos when I was going through his 28/1.5 nokton samples and I know he uses it.
The camera is the A7cii... these were with the 28/1.4 simera which I'm having a VERY tough time determining infinity focus with through the viewfinder particularly stopped down a little*. I know moire is usually when the lens out-resolves the sensor but I don't think that's what's happening here, something with the patterns.... I'm not sure. Maybe it is CA, maybe it's a bit of both, no clue but it's been bugging me. When you use the tools it removes the colour too.
*larger apertures it's a bit better in terms of ease-of-focus through a7cii viewfinder but it's still not great for me, pic sort of related:
Jonas B wrote:
I see what you mean. Well, whatever it it's ugly and disturbing. I haven't run into this problem. at least not the way it manifested itself here. With lenses giving us CA typical when shooting a fountain desaturation usually helps. In this case it may make the water look strange. The second image is dropped, right? Can you post a small version of the uncropped image?
First image was a screengrab at 100% crop and this is uncropped on image 2 (small):
I can desaturate but it ruins the image a bit, defringe tool is worse because random stuff in the image gets affected.
Ross Martin wrote:
I’ve never seen anything like this, and I have many shots with water surfaces. Something does not look right about this.
Which camera and post processor are you using (assuming you are using RAW images)?
I see it often with my a7cii in lightroom, particularly with water but not all the time. 50 apo lanthar:
50/2 apo again, this time buildings:
using tools robs the colour
28/1.5 nokton:
I hope they re-introduce AA filters tbh. I've been considering nikon zf mostly because of this but it might not fit in the small bag I like.
I see what you mean. Well, whatever it it's ugly and disturbing. I haven't run into this problem. at least not the way it manifested itself here. With lenses giving us CA typical when shooting a fountain desaturation usually helps. In this case it may make the water look strange. The second image is dropped, right? Can you post a small version of the uncropped image?
Yogifi wrote:
First image was a screengrab at 100% crop and this is uncropped on image 2 (small):
OK thank you. I have no quick and simple solution. I got the best results with some tedious balancing by painting in more purple in the water and the use the moire tool and then brighten the area a little. But that's not really viable all the time, I think you really gotta love the image for such work.
The building. Very strange. No solution. Let's hope some expert teaches us something.
That is pretty strange, and I’ve never seen anything quite like it in water before.
One thought: I wonder if is is more related to CA than moire? I see it where the reflection is of what may well have been blown our or nearly blown out very bright sky against some darker tree branches and leaves, a classic cause of CA. The green/magenta colors also make me think of CA.
If it were moire, I’d think it would be more consistent a not just in the areas of reflected vegetation against sky.
OK thank you. I have no quick and simple solution. I got the best results with some tedious balancing by painting in more purple in the water and the use the moire tool and then brighten the area a little. But that's not really viable all the time, I think you really gotta love the image for such work.
The building. Very strange. No solution. Let's hope some expert teaches us something.
I'm hoping for the same but I think correcting it properly without zapping colours might be a bit out of my pp skillset.
The moire tool did do a decent job of hiding the multi-coloured ones and only a small loss of colour that might not be that noticeable uncropped. Haven't had a photo I really cared about with it yet but at this rate I'm sure it will come.
gdanmitchell wrote:
That is pretty strange, and I’ve never seen anything quite like it in water before.
One thought: I wonder if is is more related to CA than moire? I see it where the reflection is of what may well have been blown our or nearly blown out very bright sky against some darker tree branches and leaves, a classic cause of CA. The green/magenta colors also make me think of CA.
If it were moire, I’d think it would be more consistent a not just in the areas of reflected vegetation against sky.
I also noticed it in the higher contrast areas but I'm not sure if it rules out moire because of it, but you could be right.
I know the apochromatic lenses don't mean no CA whatsoever, but this is the 50/2 apo-lanthar again but with water at 140%:
100% crop but of a stitched image from my previous copy of the apo. I don't know how that affects the zoom level:
And the images might be scaling with viewer browser size/screen resolution, I'm not sure about that just the reported zoom level in lightroom when I screencap.
@Yogifi I can understand your frustration, if I had this issue I would be going crazy trying to solve it. I have been shooting extensively the 60mp A7RV sensor, RAW processed in Lightroom, and also the 45mp sensor on various Nikons such as Z8 and D850, and my images don’t have this effect.
Is this happening mostly around the point of focus? And is it mostly seen at wider apertures rather than stopped down? I am wondering if it’s what is referred to as LoCA in lens tests:
“Longitudinal Chromatic Aberration (LoCA), also known as axial chromatic aberration or "bokeh fringing," is an optical defect where different colors of light focus at different distances from the camera sensor. This creates colored fringes (usually purple, blue, or green) around high-contrast areas and in the out-of-focus background.”
Thank you Ross, I know higher resolution cameras would help in theory with the lens "out-resolving" the sensor, but I don't really think that's actually happening in all of them, if they are all moire anyway.
I've also seen dp-review's scene comparison tool show moire with the higher resolution cameras too, yellow and blue box-like banding on a fixed image... not exactly the same thing I see here, I see that one on fences sometimes but you have to zoom in quite a lot.
I'm not entirely certain about the loca and laca stuff, I recognise the fringing on leaves against a sky, purple on water against high contrast etc and know some lenses do different colours.
With these examples, the last image posted was at f8 and it was infinity focus, and some of the water that has it is before the point of focus but also in the point of focus..
With the brick wall and the nokton 28/1.5 on the strong sunny day I noticed it actually got a little more intense as I stopped down. That together with the multicolours when you really zoom-in, I was thinking moire over CA, but not an expert.
Maybe it's the filters. I tend to use the hoya hd mk II protectors a lot (recently favouring the urth magnetic set though barely any lens cap sits nicely on it as they're so thin and I don't want to use the metal cap that's tough to get off).
Are you using a filter? It looks like an interference pattern rather than CA. Check to make sure the lens is really clean (including inside) and don't use any filters. Then maybe post an ARW file.
Yogifi wrote:
[...]
Maybe it's the filters. I tend to use the hoya hd mk II protectors a lot (recently favouring the urth magnetic set though barely any lens cap sits nicely on it as they're so thin and I don't want to use the metal cap that's tough to get off).
I can test that when I'm back.
Yes please. That may be it. If not it's fine being able to rule them out.
Yogifi wrote:
Thank you Ross, I know higher resolution cameras would help in theory with the lens "out-resolving" the sensor, but I don't really think that's actually happening in all of them, if they are all moire anyway.
I've also seen dp-review's scene comparison tool show moire with the higher resolution cameras too, yellow and blue box-like banding on a fixed image... not exactly the same thing I see here, I see that one on fences sometimes but you have to zoom in quite a lot.
I'm not entirely certain about the loca and laca stuff, I recognise the fringing on leaves against a sky, purple on water against high contrast etc and know some lenses do different colours.
With these examples, the last image posted was at f8 and it was infinity focus, and some of the water that has it is before the point of focus but also in the point of focus..
With the brick wall and the nokton 28/1.5 on the strong sunny day I noticed it actually got a little more intense as I stopped down. That together with the multicolours when you really zoom-in, I was thinking moire over CA, but not an expert.
Maybe it's the filters. I tend to use the hoya hd mk II protectors a lot (recently favouring the urth magnetic set though barely any lens cap sits nicely on it as they're so thin and I don't want to use the metal cap that's tough to get off).
Ok, I know it would suck since you bought multiple filters, but I hope that is the issue because it’s easy to solve. Look forward to your bare lens tests.
I often have to stop down to the point of inducing some defraction if it's bad enough. Usually shows up on sports uniforms for me during media days or in studio. Otherwise I never worry about it.
Good idea to simplify the discussion by first eliminating filters. Then really look around and consider which of the colors are legitimately reflected in the prism angles of the glassy water.
PLUS to what extent the water is dirty and therefore a grim contributor. I don't know about the purple maybe from overhead outer sky, but the sickly yellows appear to be obviously backlight passed through those sick-colored trees. Then after all that consideration of the sources of light, whether it is some kind of angular flaring, e.g., on the railings. Maybe the light is just so bad that filters can't fix it.
This is not necessarily a photographic phenomenon. Rainbow-like reflections in waves can be caused by polluted water. Oily substances: natural oils from decaying vegetation, plant matter, or bacterial activity in the pond. It's not your lens, or your sensor, it's the ducks.
One thing you can do is find a situation that is fully repeatable, and then proceed to rule out the irrelevant factors.
For example: shoot with a tripod, using only one lens, then vary the shutter speed (and shutter type such as electronic versus mechanical), and aperture, ISO, etc. Vary the lens, but shoot otherwise identically.
Do the simplest post-processing possible. Shoot RAW so that you can rule-out the JPG engine, etc. Try to determine if it's the lens or the sensor or the subject... etc.
.
