KEH visited my town recently, and I had a conversation with one of their representatives. I asked why they don’t list shutter actuation counts on their cameras, since that’s one of the most important indicators of actual use. His response surprised me — he said they don’t focus on that number and instead grade cameras primarily based on cosmetic condition.
I find that hard to understand. Shutter count is essentially the mileage of a camera. Ignoring it feels like pricing cars based on how shiny they look, rather than how many miles are on the engine. A clean exterior doesn’t change the fact that one camera may have seen far more use than another.
For buyers who actually use their gear, that information matters. It would make a lot more sense to include shutter count alongside cosmetic grading so people can make informed decisions.
But how you can get this number?
For film gear is impossible, for digital there is a service tools to put counter back to zero.
Of course one can judge mileage by wear of the shutter blades. Usually experienced servicemen only.
tester_V wrote:
KEH visited my town recently, and I had a conversation with one of their representatives. I asked why they don’t list shutter actuation counts on their cameras, since that’s one of the most important indicators of actual use. His response surprised me — he said they don’t focus on that number and instead grade cameras primarily based on cosmetic condition.
I find that hard to understand. Shutter count is essentially the mileage of a camera. Ignoring it feels like pricing cars based on how shiny they look, rather than how many miles are on the engine. A clean exterior doesn’t change the fact that one camera may have seen far more use than another.
For buyers who actually use their gear, that information matters. It would make a lot more sense to include shutter count alongside cosmetic grading so people can make informed decisions....Show more →
That's not realistic. KEH has no way to know what service the camera had or how accurate that number is.
I've experienced shutter counts reset to zero when service was done by Canon but the shutter was not replaced.
Especially in the MILS era the shutter count has less meaning. How do you rate a Z9 for example?
I will agree that it's a bit odd, especially for a Sony mirrorless. It takes 5 minutes to find out the current shutter count and it gives the customer peace of mind.
I think shutter count along with exterior condition are pretty good metrics. I sometimes shoot sports or other events with a pretty fast drive and these can add quite a bit to the shutter count. So in a day I might shoot 3,000 shots, that's not the same type of use as everyday carry with maybe 10 shots of interest for a year. So the shutter count could be highway miles or city. About the only camera I would pass on is a body used by a pro as a tool, beat to hell with 500,000+ clicks.
Shutter count tells you something but it doesn't tell you much.
Shooting indoor sports in a dry, climate controlled arena you could shoot for 5 seconds of every minute at 20fps during a 2 hour game.
Shooting landscapes you could carry a camera outdoors exposing it to all possible weather and temperature 5 times a week for a year only exposing 40 images per day.
Both scenarios add up to 10,000 "clicks". Which camera is more "used"?
Total mileage would have to be total power on hours + shutter + ES count. It would be good to have all three to get a more accurate mileage equivalent. Wish there was a standardized option like this just for tracking. Fuji has a nice feature on their app where you can even track all the activities done each power on too for even better telemetry.
But KEH for example has huge volume and inventory, it would add a ton of latency to their logistics and for the mass majority, this wouldn't really matter since their 180-day warranty is there and you can also return the camera if you inspect it yourself and let them know (they even accept lens decentering test as reason of return if it's valid).
I am in agreement with KEH. 99.99% of photographers don't get anywhere close to shutter lifespan limits. In fact, the shutter count obsessoin is a recent fad disconnected from reality which I wish would go away. I've been keeping an eye on the Buy&Sell section here for years now, and I'm amused by the ridiculously low shutter counts. This may matter in theory, but never in practice unless you're a pro sports photographer (and even those guys are more likely to drive their cameras to the ground instead of selling them on KEH).
Meanwhile, many people care about cracked screens, loose battery doors, sticky old plastics, and deep dents that may indicate a significant internal damange due to an accident (drop).
That is weird, it’s the first thing I look for. Very helpful in determining the cameras use, aside from the cosmetic. I don’t mind a bit of brassing but if it’s SC is high, I’ll pass.
tester_V wrote:
KEH visited my town recently, and I had a conversation with one of their representatives. I asked why they don’t list shutter actuation counts on their cameras, since that’s one of the most important indicators of actual use. His response surprised me — he said they don’t focus on that number and instead grade cameras primarily based on cosmetic condition.
I find that hard to understand. Shutter count is essentially the mileage of a camera. Ignoring it feels like pricing cars based on how shiny they look, rather than how many miles are on the engine. A clean exterior doesn’t change the fact that one camera may have seen far more use than another.
For buyers who actually use their gear, that information matters. It would make a lot more sense to include shutter count alongside cosmetic grading so people can make informed decisions....Show more →
FWIW, usedphotopro.com (Roberts used camera operation) does list shutter count, also gives a 180 day return option, and shows the actual item that is For Sale. I seem to remember that KEH's photos are only representative.
old-gregg wrote:
I am in agreement with KEH. 99.99% of photographers don't get anywhere close to shutter lifespan limits. In fact, the shutter count obsessoin is a recent fad disconnected from reality which I wish would go away. I've been keeping an eye on the Buy&Sell section here for years now, and I'm amused by the ridiculously low shutter counts. This may matter in theory, but never in practice unless you're a pro sports photographer (and even those guys are more likely to drive their cameras to the ground instead of selling them on KEH).
Meanwhile, many people care about cracked screens, loose battery doors, sticky old plastics, and deep dents that may indicate a significant internal damange due to an accident (drop)....Show more →
Yep, shutter count is the last on my list. The physical condition of the equipment is much more important and telling.
If any of you taking pictures for money, there is no chance in hell you would have a low shutter count. And it is a main indicator, clear one, and easiest one to read - the camera was used to make some $$$. After a medium size (one day, multiply if it is a two days and so on...) wedding, one will end up with at least 2000 shots per camera. Half of those are taken in the semi dark, semi drunk, very crowded places where nobody cares about your equipment and nobody dances around you, your camera or you flash or your trigger. When you see a 5 years old camera and it is in a great shape but has 90000 actuations, you know it was camera from hell.... Can it be in a good shape? Sure! My A9ii has a 110000 actuations and it is a a great shape, but it should not be appraised for it's looks.
tester_V wrote:
If any of you taking pictures for money, there is no chance in hell you would have a low shutter count. And it is a main indicator, clear one, and easiest one to read - the camera was used to make some $$$. After a medium size (one day, multiply if it is a two days and so on...) wedding, one will end up with at least 2000 shots per camera. Half of those are taken in the semi dark, semi drunk, very crowded places where nobody cares about your equipment and nobody dances around you, your camera or you flash or your trigger. When you see a 5 years old camera and it is in a great shape but has 90000 actuations, you know it was camera from hell.... Can it be in a good shape? Sure! My A9ii has a 110000 actuations and it is a a great shape, but it should not be appraised for it's looks. ...Show more →
Yeh, but what if that wedding photographer used electronic shutter so it would not register…would you be happy if the shutter count came back with 800?
For me, how beat up a camera looks tells me all I need to know.
Those who don't care about shutter count are free to ignore the number. Shutter count is another data point to help us make a decision. Shutter count isn't important for how many actuations may be left, but a good indicator of how many times the camera has been around the block. It's not foolproof, but it's something.
I've sold two shutterless cameras now and have told "shutter counters" to take a hike when they ask. It's one of the silliest metrics for an e-shutter only camera.
I actually had one person ask how many hours of video it had shot, as if anyone would track that At least they were asking a more useful question, though, I guess.
tester_V wrote:
If any of you taking pictures for money, there is no chance in hell you would have a low shutter count. And it is a main indicator, clear one, and easiest one to read - the camera was used to make some $$$. After a medium size (one day, multiply if it is a two days and so on...) wedding, one will end up with at least 2000 shots per camera. Half of those are taken in the semi dark, semi drunk, very crowded places where nobody cares about your equipment and nobody dances around you, your camera or you flash or your trigger. When you see a 5 years old camera and it is in a great shape but has 90000 actuations, you know it was camera from hell.... Can it be in a good shape? Sure! My A9ii has a 110000 actuations and it is a a great shape, but it should not be appraised for it's looks. ...Show more →
I'm not a photographer. I often rent cameras for example capturing up to 100,000 RAW files in ES mode in 12 days of shooting. the actual shutter mechanism only opens and closes a few times per day when the power is turned off. That is probably less wear and tear than a slow user taking 5000 frames and using the mechanical shutter or someone using the camera over a much longer period of time, putting wear and tear on the body and controls from handling.
In the KEH buy scenario, you have no idea about the habits of the previous owner. Shutter count is indeed a valuable metric, excluding edge cases like 'oh, what ifs'. Two equally presented cameras, one with 193,000 and one with 14,700 - which one to choose?
You can see shutter counts the same way as miles on the car's speedo, where authenticated. Every bit they have used, that's less for you to use. It's a finite resource, not helped at all by spray and pray merchants using all the fps.
'A shutter replacement for a Sony a7R V is generally estimated to cost between $400 and $650, depending on whether it is serviced by Sony or a third-party repair shop.'
Having said that, cosmetics are also a large contributor to the decision yea or nay. Modern cameras are robust but knocking them around won't help the internals and poorly kept bodies indicates a PO you would not want to deal with.
Avoid ex-pro cameras like the plague, they have to use them like blunt tools, time pressure etc. They just get used harder for longer sessions, as their MO. A lot of potential for damage, and not a lot of care in most cases, you can view this on YT vids.
Cosmetics tell you the level of care the owner afforded the camera, in the main. If you have ever interviewed people for jobs, pick the guy who knows how to present himself over the shabby guy, even if both are otherwise well-qualified.
KEH covers you for a generous time, for a good reason - they know some are going to come back. But it's best is to buy from a keen enthusiast, face-to-face wherever possible.
At least they were asking a more useful question, though, I guess.