Hey guys, I wanted to get your recommendations on focus issues I've been having when taking indoor photos of my toddler. I'm traditionally somebody who does nature photography and use manual focus; my lenses reflect this. My main lenses that I used (before having kids) were the 16-35 GM mk1, Zeiss EF Otus 55 1.4, Sony 90 macro, and Samyang 135 1.8. I have others as well, like the Sony 200-600, Loxia 25, Sony FE 85 1.8, etc. but don't use them as often.
When we had our first son two years ago, I bought the Sigma i50 f2 lens due to its small form factor and relatively fast AF. When paired with my A7R IV, I see quite a few focus misses when shooting indoors. I ran a test sequence with my wife and it misses about 20% of the time. That doesn't include shots with slightly missed focus (e.g., on the shirt instead of the eyes). That's with better lighting and a significantly less twitchy subject than when I take pictures of my son lol. I was testing with either 1/500 or 1/1000 shutter speed during that test. My fastest AF lens is the Sony FE 85 1.8 and it had about the same miss rate. I'm using AF-C with tracking but also tested without tracking.
So here's my question: is there anything I can do to improve the AF hit rate? I don't want to brighten the lighting or use flash because I have a newborn. Are there any settings I should try or would I be better off buying a lens or camera with faster AF?
djh5331 wrote:
Hey guys, I wanted to get your recommendations on focus issues I've been having when taking indoor photos of my toddler. I'm traditionally somebody who does nature photography and use manual focus; my lenses reflect this. My main lenses that I used (before having kids) were the 16-35 GM mk1, Zeiss EF Otus 55 1.4, Sony 90 macro, and Samyang 135 1.8. I have others as well, like the Sony 200-600, Loxia 25, Sony FE 85 1.8, etc. but don't use them as often.
When we had our first son two years ago, I bought the Sigma i50 f2 lens due to its small form factor and relatively fast AF. When paired with my A7R IV, I see quite a few focus misses when shooting indoors. I ran a test sequence with my wife and it misses about 20% of the time. That doesn't include shots with slightly missed focus (e.g., on the shirt instead of the eyes). That's with better lighting and a significantly less twitchy subject than when I take pictures of my son lol. I was testing with either 1/500 or 1/1000 shutter speed during that test. My fastest AF lens is the Sony FE 85 1.8 and it had about the same miss rate. I'm using AF-C with tracking but also tested without tracking.
So here's my question: is there anything I can do to improve the AF hit rate? I don't want to brighten the lighting or use flash because I have a newborn. Are there any settings I should try or would I be better off buying a lens or camera with faster AF?
Both the lens and the camera should be absolutely fine for getting eye-focused pictures of your toddler and wife and anyone else. The A7RIV has an excellent AF system and the Sigma 50mm f2, which I own, is an excellent AF lens.
Unless the lens is defective, which is unlikely, the problem is almost certainly the settings that you are using. Sony's recent cameras have extremely powerful AF systems that offer a very large number of options in their settings. Since you are someone who mostly shoots MF, you may not be familiar with them.
I don't think I can advise you on the exact settings to use because my cameras are the A1 II and the A7C R, which have very slightly diffeerent settings than the A7RIV. But I would suggest that the main thing that would get you where you want to go is to work through the AF settings with the online Sony help guide for the A7RIV or ask ChatGPT for the best AF settings on the A7RIV for photographing a toddler and making portraits of other people.
In general, you want Eye-AF on, AF-C selected, Subject set to Human (assuming you don't have an Auto setting on your camera, set to Auto if you do), AF set to rear-button focus, focus with shutter de-selected, IBIS on. I would suggest that for your focus area you use Center Fixed with Tracking. Place the box over your target's head, press the rear AF button, keep the rear AF button pressed while you recompose as desired, and the eye will be automatically tracked and you will get eye-sharp pictures (assuming a reasonable shutter speed for the degree of subject movement).
I'm sure you already know some of the above, but I think the problem you are having comes from your settings.
chiron wrote:
Both the lens and the camera should be absolutely fine for getting eye-focused pictures of your toddler and wife and anyone else. The A7RIV has an excellent AF system and the Sigma 50mm f2, which I own, is an excellent AF lens.
Unless the lens is defective, which is unlikely, the problem is almost certainly the settings that you are using. Sony's recent cameras have extremely powerful AF systems that offer a very large number of options in their settings. Since you are someone who mostly shoots MF, you may not be familiar with them.
I don't think I can advise you on the exact settings to use because my cameras are the A1 II and the A7C R, which have very slightly diffeerent settings than the A7RIV. But I would suggest that the main thing that would get you where you want to go is to work through the AF settings with the online Sony help guide for the A7RIV or ask ChatGPT for the best AF settings on the A7RIV for photographing a toddler and making portraits of other people.
In general, you want Eye-AF on, AF-C selected, Subject set to Human (assuming you don't have an Auto setting on your camera, set to Auto if you do), AF set to rear-button focus, focus with shutter de-selected, IBIS on. I would suggest that for your focus area you use Center Fixed with Tracking. Place the box over your target's head, press the rear AF button, keep the rear AF button pressed while you recompose as desired, and the eye will be automatically tracked and you will get eye-sharp pictures (assuming a reasonable shutter speed for the degree of subject movement).
I'm sure you already know some of the above, but I think the problem you are having comes from your settings. ...Show more →
Thanks for taking the time to write that up! I did verify my settings and they already aligned with what you were suggesting. That said, I did some experimenting and noticed that I had the anti-flicker setting turned on. I'm not sure why, and maybe this was just pure luck, but after disabling that I no longer had the random focus misses. I'll have to test this more tonight, but with it off I was seeing closer to 90-95% of shots being in focus. The remaining out of focus shots were those were my son did a sudden, erratic movement. I think those movements are a lot harder on the AF system, and I wouldn't expect the A7RIV to nail them. So we'll see after additional testing if that's all it was.
With that said, I do have a more general question for folks: when taking pictures of young kids, do you prefer fast primes or zoom lenses? I'm thinking that you'd want a fast prime for indoor low light situations, but a zoom is probably really nice for outdoor shots.
For a lot of reasons I prefer a fast prime. Since you know the subject well, your aim is to capture many aspects of him/her, rather than the context. In fact, for candids you want the context reduced, eg by using a fast aperture. Plus the low-light etc of indoor use.
With that said, I do have a more general question for folks: when taking pictures of young kids, do you prefer fast primes or zoom lenses? I'm thinking that you'd want a fast prime for indoor low light situations, but a zoom is probably really nice for outdoor shots.
There is no generally right or wrong answer to that question. It just comes down to personal preference. FWIW the two lenses I have used by far the most since my child was born are a 24-70mm f/2.8 and a 35mm f/1.4, with a 70-180mm f/2.8 next in a distant third place. (If I had had my recently acquired Sigma 65mm f/2 for longer, it would be interesting to see how it would have ranked, but I digress.) Having both a zoom (for dealing with rapidly moving children and for getting more variety in your shots) and at least one fast prime (for low light and for more background blur) available is very useful, if you ask me.
I see another poster has suggested often wanting to reduce the context in images when you are photographing your child. Again, I think that is a personal preference thing. Sometimes I do want photos which exclude context so as to really focus on the child without distractions, of course, but personally I often want context in the image, to show where my child was, who else was there, how my child was enjoying or interacting with the environment, etc, etc. YMMV.
I think an A9, A1, A7RV plus a Sony Prime with the "better motors" using high speed burst continuous should do it.
I like the 35mm 1.4 GM.
Now with that being said your current gear A7RIV and 85mm 1.8 should be able to get some decent shots. Are you not getting any or just unhappy with your hit rate?
Thanks for all of the advice guys! After a few days I've probably taken close to 300-400 photos and disabling the anti-flicker setting certainly made a big difference. I only saw maybe 10 shots truly out of focus, which is great.
That said, eye AF doesn't seem to activate very often with my son and after reviewing the photos, I was surprised at how few were critically focused (meaning well focused on the eyes). That said, stopping down obviously helps as DOF increases, at the cost of sometimes maxing out on ISO. DXO PureRaw does a decent job, but it's not ideal to shot at 12800 ISO.
I'm definitely getting good enough results, so is it worth upgrading a lens or body for slightly better results? Maybe? It definitely seems like everyone recommends the 35GM and I don't have a fast 35, but I'm normally more of a 50 person and a good 50 1.4 would be nice. Definitely a lot to think about. I think I'd go with a new body normally since it's been a minute since I've upgraded, but the sensor on the A7RIV is so nice. The A7V would be a huge improvement in AF, but its resolution is a lot lower for landscape (if I ever have time again for that lol). Used A1 is tempting too and of course the A7RV would be a nice upgrade. We're certainly spoiled for choices these days lol
1) I would test the Sigma 50 against the Sony 85/1.8 - if the Sigma hit rate is noticeably lower and AF meaningfully slower, then it might be a lens related issue (not necessarily the lens, but how the Sigma communicates with the a7RIV.
2) Is it worth upgrading or changing camera and/or lenses? Maybe. The a7RIV sensor is a beast, same one being used in Sony a7RV, a7CR, etc but those latter cameras have better processors, white balance, and color science. Perhaps that doesn't matter much when shooting landscapes, macros or product photography in RAW, but personally I noticed a difference when chasing people, especially children. On top of that, the vari-angle screen is a God-send when trying to get low angles instead of lying on the floor (key to toddler photography is to get on-level).
3) Personally, I am not a person who keep lenses (or any stuff) around that I don't use. I'm not a collector of stuff, rather experiences. I would sell any lenses that doesn't get meaningful use and put the money towards something else. Moreover, as your circumstances have changed, I'd say sell both the Sigma and Otus and buy a Sony 50/1.4 GM instead - a killer lens for people photography. I find that 50mm is better when shooting youngsters vs 35mm as discussed above. 35mm works for environmental portraits for full size adults, 50mm works better, IMO, for children, helps fill the frame a bit better.
Lastly, you have gear that is more than good enough to get great results. If hit-rates bothers you then getting the latest gen AI-assisted Sony AF system will surely help. If the focus (pun!) is on people photography, I would much rather use a Sony a7V with 33mp and semi-stacked sensor along with a 50GM lens than anything short of a a1II or a9III. I am suing the a7V right now and I am very happy with how it performs and the results I'm getting. Silent shooting is finally usable after having suffered the slow reading sensors of the a7IV and a7RV.
With A7RIV I has so low AF issue I've never tested the miss rate, however I'm not professional. I consider A7RIV focus system is more than adequate for toddler shots.
Perhaps if you have very limited light, a faster 1.4 lens can improve your hit rate, a 35 or 50GM are better upgrade than a new body. Those are the most reliable and fastest AF lenses on E-mount, if you are concerned about 20% missed focus.
I had both A7RIVa and A7RV, I don't know about how faster newer generation AF system because couldn't feel difference in my shooting style. AI subject recognition is definitely better on A7RV/CR, but it's nothing to do with AF speed. It's more convenient using as it sticks and predict eyes on different level, but I'm perfectly fine with A7RIV's subject recognition.
