p.2 #1 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
Let's just hope the M12 doesn't turn into a megapixel monster. Most of us don't need more pixels...come on Leica, be bold and go against the grain!
What I really want is way faster sensor readout, so we can shoot electronically even with moving subjects like in street photography. Somewhere between 24 and 60MP would be ideal, like the M10-R’s 40MP, giving us better control over signal-to-noise. I don't think there's space for IBIS or a built-in diopter, but yes, that would be a welcome bonus.
As for the Visoflex 3, it might come with the M12 and could also work on the M11, though perhaps at a slightly lower magnification. Or, with the EV1 now in the mix, Leica might just skip new development of the Visoflex entirely and focus on pure EVF and RF M bodies....Show more →
24MP with high read out speed would be terrific in an M. Leica has recent 24MP experience with the SL3S, but I know it is AF and has IBIS in a big heavy body.
Loving my EV1's.
p.2 #2 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
stgrove wrote:
24MP with high read out speed would be terrific in an M. Leica has recent 24MP experience with the SL3S, but I kno2 it is AF and has IBIS in a big heavy body.
Loving my EV1's.
I don't care about IBIS at all- If they can't fit it into the current body great- I just don't want the dimensions to change.
What I really want is focus on the best low noise color sensor ever created. 24-60MP- Don't care. Give me Monochrome performance with a color body-
p.2 #3 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
RustyRus wrote:
I don't care about IBIS at all- If they can't fit it into the current body great- I just don't want the dimensions to change.
What I really want is focus on the best low noise color sensor ever created. 24-60MP- Don't care. Give me Monochrome performance with a color body-
I agree, no change in dimensions, except maybe making it a bit less tall, closer to a Leica film M. That said, the best Leica M I own in terms of ergonomics for my hands is my thicker M-D, based on the M262. That slight extra thickness actually makes it more comfortable to hold. The M9 I used to own is also just as thick.
p.2 #5 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
I agree, no change in dimensions, except maybe making it a bit less tall, closer to a Leica film M. That said, the best Leica M I own in terms of ergonomics for my hands is my thicker M-D, based on the M262. That slight extra thickness actually makes it more comfortable to hold. The M9 I used to own is also just as thick.
If you like the slightly thicker M-D, then why can’t they slightly increase the thickness of the M12 and include an in-house designed IBIS?
p.2 #6 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
bwcolor wrote:
If you like the slightly thicker M-D, then why can’t they slightly increase thickness and include an in-house designed IBIS?
Because most people wouldn't like that. For most, it would feel like a step backward, unless IBIS in a Leica M were so desirable that the compromise felt worth it. I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
p.2 #7 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
Because most people wouldn't like that. For most, it would feel like a step backward.
Understood.. I’m not in that camp, so maybe my remarks are irrelevant here, but there is also a benefit of the IBIS, which can be a substantial plus for many. Perhaps, that would be an easier sell with the EV-2 given those individuals have already abandoned what made the ‘M’ series unique..at least unique as a new camera in today’s market.
p.2 #8 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
RustyRus wrote:
I don't care about IBIS at all- If they can't fit it into the current body great- I just don't want the dimensions to change.
What I really want is focus on the best low noise color sensor ever created. 24-60MP- Don't care. Give me Monochrome performance with a color body-
It seems like what you are wanting is the highest image quality/ lowest noise possible. I agree.
However it is very likely that IBIS is the best path to acheive that goal. Dynamic Range and noise are both directly linked to ISO. Required ISO is a direct function of how much light reaches the sensor for a given exposure. Aperture chosen is best used for artistic reasons. For a given Aperture we must adjust either ISO or shutter speed to achieve proper exposure. If we raise ISO we reduce Dynamic Range and increase noise. Both bad for IQ. If we slow down SS we get proper exposure without any IQ penalty. It is IBIS that allows us to do that. If we are abe to get sharp images at 5 stops slower shutter speed it is the same as being able to shoot with 5 stops lower ISO. That is the difference between ISO 100 and ISO 3200. This is a huge improvement in IQ.
The practicality of improving sensor IQ by 5 stops is unlikely and if even possible would be extremely expensive. Therefore for Leica the easiest path to highr DR lower noise and higher IQ is probably through adding IBIS to M cameras.
p.2 #9 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
1bwana1 wrote:
It seems like what you are wanting is the highest image quality/ lowest noise possible. I agree.
However it is very likely that IBIS is the best path to acheive that goal. Dynamic Range and noise are both directly linked to ISO. Required ISO is a direct function of how much light reaches the sensor for a given exposure. Aperture chosen is best used for artistic reasons. For a given Aperture we must adjust either ISO or shutter speed to achieve proper exposure. If we raise ISO we reduce Dynamic Range and increase noise. Both bad for IQ. If we slow down SS we get proper exposure without any IQ penalty. It is IBIS that allows us to do that. If we are abe to get sharp images at 5 stops slower shutter speed it is the same as being able to shoot with 5 stops lower ISO. That is the difference between ISO 100 and ISO 3200. This is a huge improvement in IQ.
The practicality of improving sensor IQ by 5 stops is unlikely and if even possible would be extremely expensive. Therefore for Leica the easiest path to highr DR lower noise and higher IQ is probably through adding IBIS to M cameras. ...Show more →
I agree with your thought process on that but in practical use its not the case.
For landscape or static scenes sure- Bars, street scenes, night time etc- All with life happening around it. I can't shoot at 1/15 with people in the frame in most cases.
p.2 #10 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
RustyRus wrote:
I agree with your thought process on that but in practical use its not the case.
For landscape or static scenes sure- Bars, street scenes, night time etc- All with life happening around it. I can't shoot at 1/15 with people in the frame in most cases.
So, is it more practical to add IBIS, or to ask you to travel to my location and hold my camera at 1/15 second?
p.2 #12 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
1bwana1 wrote:
So, are you having issues focusing and composing landscape images on slower refresh rate, 5m dot evfs?
.
No.
I have NO EXPERIENCE with with focusing landscape images on slower refresh rate 5m dot evfs. I don‘t use them.
I came from Pentax (late 70ties) and after an M3 stint (Leicas were not that much more expensive than Pentax at that time) moved through ME Super, LX, K10D, K1. Never warmed to focus precision of digital SLRs: I ended up focusing on the rear screen with a loupe and shade, since I found manual focusing through the SLR viewfinder just not precise enough. The final straw was, when the lights in the school auditorium were switched to LEDs and I was getting stripes on the K1 images (with three children at school, I had ended up with a side job).
I looked at mirrorless and wanted a solution to stripes, noiseless shutter and the best viewfinder possible for all my manual focus lenses. I went through a lot of mirrorless bodies (Nikon, Canon, Olympus, Sony) and ended up with the A1. The A7RV was not out yet and since I do not change bodies that often, I gulped and decided it could be an investment for the next 20 years (That’s how long my LX lasted). I imagine the A1 will as well (similar price shock as when I bought my LX).
I tested the different viewfinder settings on the A1 and found that 60fps and 2048x1536 pixels worked best for me. Not as sharp and bright as the viewfinder of my film SLRs, but fine for someone who had no previous experience with mirrorless. Silent shutter and reasonable viewfinder (ability to focus all my A-star manual focus lenses of lore) was most important.
Leica’s path keeps me curious since I had a stint with them long, long ago (I studied in Giessen, which is just around the corner of Wetzlar). At the time when I switched away, SLRs were just so much more flexible than rangefinders (macro, tele etc.). But just getting on your bike and making a small tour when any problems occurred with your M was such a fun experience. Technicians were much more relaxed and had plenty of time at that time. It was fun, just for talking and hearing stories.
p.2 #13 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
RustyRus wrote:
I agree with your thought process on that but in practical use its not the case.
For landscape or static scenes sure- Bars, street scenes, night time etc- All with life happening around it. I can't shoot at 1/15 with people in the frame in most cases.
No but in low light with people in the scene you can hand hold at 1/250 seconds at ISO 100 instead of ISO 4000. Very useful.
p.2 #14 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
I have been thinking about this. As MP counts keep climbing, and they probably won't stop at 60MP, the need for IBIS starts to matter more. Not because subjects are suddenly more likely to blur from shaky hands, but because any blur becomes far more obvious. Blur is blur, the amount does not change, but on a 60-100MP sensor it's much easier to see than it ever was on film or even on early 10-18MP digital bodies.
That's likely why this was never really an issue in the past. Film shooters lived with it, and early digital shooters barely noticed it. A small amount of blur from slower shutter speeds, combined with real organic grain rather than noise, often added a cool aesthetic. Today everything is much cleaner and sharper, so blur stands out more. At some point, with these megapixel monsters, it does start to matter.
The solutions are pretty simple. Either lower MP bodies are perfectly fine, and 24-45MP seems like a good compromise, or IBIS becomes essential to keep up with that level of resolution..
p.2 #15 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
I have been thinking about this. As MP counts keep climbing, and they probably won't stop at 60MP, the need for IBIS starts to matter more. Not because subjects are suddenly more likely to blur from shaky hands, but because any blur becomes far more obvious. Blur is blur, the amount does not change, but on a 60-100MP sensor it's much easier to see than it ever was on film or even on early 10-18MP digital bodies.
That's likely why this was never really an issue in the past. Film shooters lived with it, and early digital shooters barely noticed it. A small amount of blur from slower shutter speeds, combined with real organic grain rather than noise, often added a cool aesthetic. Today everything is much cleaner and sharper, so blur stands out more. At some point, with these megapixel monsters, it does start to matter.
The solutions are pretty simple. Either lower MP bodies are perfectly fine, and 24-45MP seems like a good compromise, or IBIS becomes essential to keep up with that level of resolution......Show more →
Yep for a lot of reasons IBIS is the path of least resistance to higher image quality. Through multi-shot also higher mpx in some circumstances. Also the path to a smother better EVF rear screen experience.My most desired feature currently missing from M cameras. Next would be faster processor and sensor for silent shooting, again smoother EVF with better focus aids, maybe mor flexible flash, and better management of the increasingly prevelant LED lighting. Alsi faster boot times for fewer missed opportunities.
p.2 #16 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
1bwana1 wrote:
Yep for a lot of reasons IBIS is the path of least resistance to higher image quality. Through multi-shot also higher mpx in some circumstances. Also the path to a smother better EVF rear screen experience.My most desired feature currently missing from M cameras. Next would be faster processor and sensor for silent shooting, again smoother EVF with better focus aids, maybe mor flexible flash, and better management of the increasingly prevelant LED lighting. Alsi faster boot times for fewer missed opportunities.
Yep, that's basically right. When focusing with the rangefinder, IBIS doesn't do anything while you're focusing through the viewfinder. The only time it helps is in LV, and the M11 already gives you that kind of stability there. The catch is, it is just for the display...you only see it while composing, it doesn't change the actual picture itself.
So for classic RF focusing, IBIS is basically invisible but would provide less blurry images in certain conditions.
p.2 #17 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yep, that's basically right. When focusing with the rangefinder, IBIS doesn't do anything while you're focusing through the viewfinder. The only time it helps is in LV, and the M11 already gives you that kind of stability there. The catch is, it is just for the display...you only see it while composing, it doesn't change the actual picture itself.
So for classic RF focusing, IBIS is basically invisible but would provide less blurry images in certain conditions.
I believe that Leica has relied upon processing chips that are at least a generation behind the best from other companies..and I’m thinking of Sony. They are at a place where the market might force them to attempt to catch up. Excusing relatively poor autofocus in Q and SL systems isn’t sustainable. Their uninspired EV-1 doesn’t provide much hope that they will up their game. IBIS and faster sensor readouts might also fall into this category. Maybe we will see technological improvements after the company is acquired by a high(er) tech company.
p.2 #18 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yep, that's basically right. When focusing with the rangefinder, IBIS doesn't do anything while you're focusing through the viewfinder. The only time it helps is in LV, and the M11 already gives you that kind of stability there. The catch is, it is just for the display...you only see it while composing, it doesn't change the actual picture itself.
So for classic RF focusing, IBIS is basically invisible but would provide less blurry images in certain conditions.
On the M11 Leica has attempted to smooth out the live view on both the Visoflex and rear screen with software. I find it still lacking in comparison to the SL3 that has decent IBIS. It is embarrassingly bad in comparison to other brands with very effective IBIS and faster processors and data streams. If Leica wants to improve this in M cameras (including the EV1) they will need to step up with better hardware, software, and IBIS.
p.2 #20 · Visoflex 3 Release Date and EV1 Ramifications?
Fred Miranda wrote:
So for classic RF focusing, IBIS is basically invisible but would provide less blurry images in certain conditions.
Yes, IBIS will only reduce the shake/movement the photographer produces. In a way it only replaces the sturdy tripod (for this it is very helpful). But it does nothing to reduce the movement of objects or people in the image.
