Through the years in my Nikon journey I have always run both FX and DX, enjoying both. Recently I divested from DX. I also dipped my toes into the Viltrox waters..... anyway with some patience the FX kit you can now put together for the money is pretty spectacular. For instance the following kit:
Nikon Z5II refurb $1200
Nikon 24-70s used $400
Viltrox 20mm $140
Nikon 40mm F2 $200 new on sale.
Call it $2,000ish
You can go wider or tele if your needs desire such. If you are willing to go FTZ, the 300pf with 1.4tc and Tamron 35 1.4 are very much still relevant for the $. The image quality and AF ability of the Expeed 7 available now is something else. Just wanted to share, very happy with the recent developments!
My z5ii arrived just a bit ago and really impressed with it. My kit is not quite as cost effective and somewhat redundant but pretty happy where I've landed.
Primary is z5ii/z7ii, 14-30, 24-120, tamron 50-300 (adapted), and 26, 40 and TT 75 - all used or refurb. Might look at getting a Samyang 135 1.8 if I need some indoor reach, but very happy with this. I still have some Sony mount stuff I adapt like 40 1.2, and 24 1.4 and some m mount glass, but I'll keep those.
I also have the OM1.2 for airshows, computational photography and if I find myself in a jungle or plan to beat the hell out of the camera. Three camera is an indulgence, but love aspects of all 3 and variety is the spice of life.
I really like the 24-120. It is a good foundation for any kit. I have more time on the 24-70F4, both are great. Almost can make an argument for both if you value going light at times. I also like having options when traveling and not wanting to risk loosing $3,000 worth of gear or being weighed down.
The Z5II is amazing value. For landscapes the Z7 (v1) is still unbeatable imo, they're available for 1.200€ over here in excellent condition and 12m warranty.
That said depending on whether it suits your subject matter, you can also get really good deals on DSLRs now:
fjablo wrote:
The Z5II is amazing value. For landscapes the Z7 (v1) is still unbeatable imo, they're available for 1.200€ over here in excellent condition and 12m warranty.
That said depending on whether it suits your subject matter, you can also get really good deals on DSLRs now:
so about 1.100€ (prices based on MPB, excellent or like new condition and 12m warranty)
You could swap out the D750 for a D810 for +200€.
Both great cameras that I enjoyed very much!
One of my favorite F-mounts was the 24mm 1.8g. Loved it even more on DX. That and the 10-20 afp with the 70-300 afp was an outstanding combo. I tried to recreate that with the Z50 and the 24mm 1.7 dx, 12-28 and that 50-250 and never got there. I found the 12-28 to be pretty good, the 50-250 excellent but the 24mm 1.7 is not in the same ball park as the 1.8g.
For a general purpose setup, I agree. The Z5II is crazy good value. Consider that the D600 launched in 2013 for $2000. That's like $2800 today!
I do think your dollar goes the absolute furthest with DSLR's still, though. You can get D600/D610 bodies for well under $400 now, and 24-70 f/2.8G's are easily $500 (sometimes cheaper). There's a ton of IQ available there, and you're still using relevant batteries cards, etc.
And also for the sports/action shooter, a D5 can be had for the same as a Z5II (sometimes less), and a D500 certainly would be less. I shot those next to the Zf when it first came out, and there's still a decent gap in reliability for the high-speed stuff. And again, both D5 and D500 are on relevant batteries and cards (well, XQD versions of the D5 anyway).
Interesting topic. I purchased a 24-70 2.8S just before the new one was released and since then the price for used ones has dropped significantly. Kind of frustrating that camera gear doesn't hold value like it use to. It's great for buyers but those who invested in new gear are losing out on their investment.
Stop looking at it as an investment, it’s not an investment unless you are making money with it.
doubleuely wrote:
Interesting topic. I purchased a 24-70 2.8S just before the new one was released and since then the price for used ones has dropped significantly. Kind of frustrating that camera gear doesn't hold value like it use to. It's great for buyers but those who invested in new gear are losing out on their investment.
doubleuely wrote:
Interesting topic. I purchased a 24-70 2.8S just before the new one was released and since then the price for used ones has dropped significantly. Kind of frustrating that camera gear doesn't hold value like it use to. It's great for buyers but those who invested in new gear are losing out on their investment.
Prices dropping precipitously is inevitable with all technology as newer models come out. Very few things become collectors items unless you hold onto them for a VERY long time. The best thing about your 24-70 2.8S is that it is literally one of the finest lenses of any type ever made and it surpasses every one that came before it. In 10-20 years, the images coming from it won't be any worse than they are now. The other reason this should be viewed as good is that manufacturers are taking advantage of the ability to improve and quality/capability has not remained stagnant.
RoamingScott wrote:
Stop looking at it as an investment, it’s not an investment unless you are making money with it.
If a lens is for a photo business I'd list it as a CapEx. Equipment is definitely not an investment. You expect to fully depreciate it after about 5 years.
doubleuely wroteIt's great for buyers but those who invested in new gear are losing out on their investment.
Yeah, that’s pretty much how it goes for new anything not just new camera gear.
Bodies drop in value fastest. Lenses, on the other hand, hold up way better.
If you buy a lens used, most of the depreciation is already done. Use it for years, take care of it, and you can usually sell it later for nearly what you paid. It's better than renting.
eg. Sony A1 and 300 GM were priced similarly at launch, but today the A1 sells for almost half its original price used (I saw one at local camera store for 4100 CAD/3000 USD), whereas the 300 GM has retained its value way better and is likely to do so for many years to come. Same for Nikon D850/Z8/Z9 and PF lenses.
If you view gear as an investment, spend more on lenses (ideally used) than on the camera body. With any Expeed 8 Nikon body, you’re set for a long, long time.
Cameras are more complex and a used one can hide more defects than a lens that can be more easily tested. There are plenty of good value deals on used late model (E) F mount lenses to adpat, especially with all the wimpy photographers today.
The way to get a good value for the money is easy:
1. Dont buy from professionals. They know the value of their gear and they have really used it. You wont get a good deal.
2. Ideally buy from Japan. Second choice is Europe. Do not buy from the USA. US americans have an amazing attitude towards their gear; they mistreat the fragile fine mechanics of lenses and cameras with the argument "it has to work". Yeah no it doesnt. Japanese people are exceptional careful in this regard. Europe is so-so, you can get either. This is of course a factor of what you want to get; camera bodies and complex modern zoom lenses are especially critical, build like tank Zeiss and Voigtländer lenses not so much.
3. A mere 6 Megapixels allows you to print in a regular sized book at 300 dpi. A mere 12 Megapixels is enough for a typical photobook, twice the size. And hardly anyone actually needs more than that, unless you talk about crop reserves, which are of course always nice to have. Also consider taking panorama series if you really want to fill a whole wall with a landscape shot. So dont waste money for insane Megapixels unless you know you really will need them or you can easily afford them anyway.
4. Sensors are hardly getting any better and havent been since quite a while. The last real big step was backlit and that was around 2017-ish. Underperforming sensors are really hard to find. Even the D700 still works quite nicely today if you keep it at low ISOs. At higher ISOs it definitely falls behind newer sensors though.
5. Everything is more robust and reliable and more comfortable to use with true professional cameras; not semi-professional and certainly not beginner stuff. Because of this and because of the previous points you want an older professional model with reasonably low shot counter. It can last much longer.
6. Get older generations of glas; even get astronomically good manual glas like the legendary AI 105mm f2.5, the lens that was used to take the famous photograph "Afghan Girl".
7. While you can still buy used, do NOT save money on wide angle lenses. Modern wide angles are plain and simple just superior to what we got in the past. You could get an older zoom, starting with the Nikon AF-S 14-24mm f2.8, which was a true breakthrough lens back in the day, so good that Canon users adopted it, and it was superior to many prime lenses at the time, too. The lens has many troubles though, such as getting a filter solution for it.
8. For normal primes take a good luck at offers from Zeiss and Voigtländer. There is just no Canon and no Nikon lens gets close. Again, mind these are manual focus lenses.
9. Finally dont forget effect lenses, especially macro, and zooms, specifically a modern fast autofocus telezoom if you want to shoot action.
Thats how I build my own system. Given their quality, it feels bad that three of my five main lenses are out of production now. But it was hella cheap for what it can do. Oh, and yes, I didnt get a professional camera body. I may rectify this in future. D4 and D4s get really cheap on the used market now.
What the OP proposes however looks like a highly impractical selection of random glas.
I don't think what OP proposed was too bad for a run and gun collection. It was more of a generalization.
I usually buy my lenses from Nikon refurb directly. But i did acquire a used Nikkor 85 from here and the lens was in good condition. You can't stereotype an entire country based on assumptions.
I think the OP bought he glass that works best for them. Because you disagree does not make them wrong and you right. Who is to say what is impractical and practical?
Sauseschritt wrote:
2. Ideally buy from Japan. Second choice is Europe. Do not buy from the USA. US americans have an amazing attitude towards their gear; they mistreat the fragile fine mechanics of lenses and cameras with the argument "it has to work". Yeah no it doesnt. Japanese people are exceptional careful in this regard. Europe is so-so, you can get either. This is of course a factor of what you want to get; camera bodies and complex modern zoom lenses are especially critical, build like tank Zeiss and Voigtländer lenses not so much.
I am sometimes surprised about the steady flow of vintage and Voigtländer lenses on kleinanzeigen.de. Its the German equivalent to craiglist. Like a Vogitländer 15mm 4.5 super wide heliar for Leica M incl viewfinder for 275 Euro. Its either Version II or III.
I would have bought it, but just got the excellent Viltrox 14 AIR. But like craiglist, they are local sales. Its just one example of many.
The older boomers are passing away, and the next generation isn't that interested in photography beyond their cellphone.
Sauseschritt wrote:
7. While you can still buy used, do NOT save money on wide angle lenses. Modern wide angles are plain and simple just superior to what we got in the past. You could get an older zoom, starting with the Nikon AF-S 14-24mm f2.8, which was a true breakthrough lens back in the day, so good that Canon users adopted it, and it was superior to many prime lenses at the time, too. The lens has many troubles though, such as getting a filter solution for it.
So much truth packed in #7.
I bought the AF-S 14-24 f/2.8 around 2008, when--as stated--it was a breakthrough lens. Made many valued images with it. It was especially good, wide open, for Milky Way nightscapes.
When mirrorless came out, I decided to modernize to the Z version of this lens, as the reviews were great, and this niche in my photo ecosystem had become too important to economize on. Looking to sell my old lens--still in excellent condition and including a pricey Photodiox filter holder and polarizer--I found the used camera dealers would only give me about $300. Meanwhile, Nikon was still selling this lens new for about $1800. Ack.
A friend who still shoots F-mount had long wanted such a lens, and I offered mine to him for what the dealers would pay. He snapped it up. I gave it a quick test before handing it over, to make sure nothing had gone wrong since I last used it. Unsurprisingly, the results looked great--and made me wonder why I'd dropped so much coin for the Z version. So I took the same shots with the Z version of the glass, compared the images side by side, and saw that the new lens was clearly superior. Wide open, the two versions looked about the same in center, but the newer glass maintained that quality out to the corners, where the old glass fell off a bit.
So it was win-win. Friend got a lens that looks perfect unless you pixel peep against much more expensive glass. I got enough pixel peeping to feel good about the hole in my wallet.
Such a bonehead statement to say not to buy gear from someone in the US because we all don’t take care of our gear. Plain stupid comment.
Sauseschritt wrote:
The way to get a good value for the money is easy:
1. Dont buy from professionals. They know the value of their gear and they have really used it. You wont get a good deal.
2. Ideally buy from Japan. Second choice is Europe. Do not buy from the USA. US americans have an amazing attitude towards their gear; they mistreat the fragile fine mechanics of lenses and cameras with the argument "it has to work". Yeah no it doesnt. Japanese people are exceptional careful in this regard. Europe is so-so, you can get either. This is of course a factor of what you want to get; camera bodies and complex modern zoom lenses are especially critical, build like tank Zeiss and Voigtländer lenses not so much.
3. A mere 6 Megapixels allows you to print in a regular sized book at 300 dpi. A mere 12 Megapixels is enough for a typical photobook, twice the size. And hardly anyone actually needs more than that, unless you talk about crop reserves, which are of course always nice to have. Also consider taking panorama series if you really want to fill a whole wall with a landscape shot. So dont waste money for insane Megapixels unless you know you really will need them or you can easily afford them anyway.
4. Sensors are hardly getting any better and havent been since quite a while. The last real big step was backlit and that was around 2017-ish. Underperforming sensors are really hard to find. Even the D700 still works quite nicely today if you keep it at low ISOs. At higher ISOs it definitely falls behind newer sensors though.
5. Everything is more robust and reliable and more comfortable to use with true professional cameras; not semi-professional and certainly not beginner stuff. Because of this and because of the previous points you want an older professional model with reasonably low shot counter. It can last much longer.
6. Get older generations of glas; even get astronomically good manual glas like the legendary AI 105mm f2.5, the lens that was used to take the famous photograph "Afghan Girl".
7. While you can still buy used, do NOT save money on wide angle lenses. Modern wide angles are plain and simple just superior to what we got in the past. You could get an older zoom, starting with the Nikon AF-S 14-24mm f2.8, which was a true breakthrough lens back in the day, so good that Canon users adopted it, and it was superior to many prime lenses at the time, too. The lens has many troubles though, such as getting a filter solution for it.
8. For normal primes take a good luck at offers from Zeiss and Voigtländer. There is just no Canon and no Nikon lens gets close. Again, mind these are manual focus lenses.
9. Finally dont forget effect lenses, especially macro, and zooms, specifically a modern fast autofocus telezoom if you want to shoot action.
Thats how I build my own system. Given their quality, it feels bad that three of my five main lenses are out of production now. But it was hella cheap for what it can do. Oh, and yes, I didnt get a professional camera body. I may rectify this in future. D4 and D4s get really cheap on the used market now.
What the OP proposes however looks like a highly impractical selection of random glas. ...Show more →
